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Norman Davies on the Warsaw uprising


Harry  
12 Aug 2008 /  #31
I mean its strange how many Poles love to remember how they were 'sold out' by the British in WWII but when it comes to the unpleasant facts about their 'best friends' in the USA, those same Poles can't seem to remember any of those facts.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
12 Aug 2008 /  #32
So you mean wrong. People with not much idea about history blame them equally. These better informed know that Churchill at least tried to do something.
Harry  
13 Aug 2008 /  #33
Given the comments of our young friend from the prison colony and from carol, I'd say you've hit the nail on the head with that remark.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768  
13 Aug 2008 /  #34
Interesting ^^^ I find this terribly interesting BUT with all due respect, what is the relevence of any of this to today?

I mean specifically what is the relevent matter being discussed, not in the general sense of without a past there would be no today. History is fan-f'ing-tastic as long as we can say why a historical fact is relevent to something specific today.

With this thread, i'm afraid i have to side with ukpolska, what's the point?
Ogorki - | 114  
13 Aug 2008 /  #35
And the point? Isn't it about time to stop nitpicking on who's to blame, as it's like playing in the playground of history.

I find this terribly interesting BUT with all due respect, what is the relevence of any of this to today?

A quater of a million men women and children were butchered in ways you could only begin to imagine - whilst the rest jostled for self interest - and when it was all over - the Poles were "gagged" by the allies so they could celebrate "their" victory with a clear conscience - and that those who survived the soviet executions - those who remain to this date fighting the uprising - like lost souls looking for closure - in this - unfinished business.

You will never know.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768  
13 Aug 2008 /  #36
Ogorki

I haven't seen anyone dispute what you've written (at least on this thread, (although i don't understand why you've used the word "you" i'm pretty sure it's mostly a "we" thing).

History and survivors tell us this period was awful for the vast majority in Europe and in this case Poland, most of us cannot imagine such horrors, but what's your point?
ukpolska  
13 Aug 2008 /  #37
A quater of a million men women and children were butchered in ways you could only begin to imagine - whilst the rest jostled for self interest - and when it was all over - the Poles were "gagged" by the allies so they could celebrate "their" victory with a clear conscience - and that those who survived the soviet executions - those who remain to this date fighting the uprising - like lost souls looking for closure - in this - unfinished business.
You will never know.

Who are we preaching to here?

Many of us on this forum have lived here in Poland for years, I myself for eight years. You do not see Polish people crying over what was, rather the opposite they are survivors, and proud of this.

I have asked the question over the years to countless Polish people, "are you angry at what happened in the past?"
Not one person that I can recall answered yes, as their answer to me is, "what is the point, what is done is done and in the past."

You cannot go through your life with a chip on your shoulder as the burden is too heavy to carry, especially from Poland's history. My wife's grandmother was tortured and raped in Majdanek by the Ukrainian guards, but until the day she died she never hated anyone, and I loved this wonderful soul.

Nearly every family in Poland has a similar story of persecution or loss in some way. But it time to move on, and by this I don't mean forget, but Poland needs to keep some sense of pride and stop playing the victim and be the country that succeeds for a change.

What I am doing is just echoing what many Polish people have told me over the years, and if you wish to blame someone for the injustice of what happened to Poland at the London Victory Parade of 1946, fine then as a British guy you can use me as a whipping post.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
14 Aug 2008 /  #38
<the same old tired sh!t yet again>

I was quite happy to let sleeping dogs lie until you popped up again with your usual distasteful commentary. It only shows that you are letting me get under your skin. Show some maturity - it's only an internet forum!

You just got upset because you thought you'd storm into the PF and set everyone right, but when you were set straight by others, you got upset, and you remain upset. I hear that chewing on the cheap paper and ink that comprises your literary masterpieces acts as a sedative - perhaps you should partake?

Churchill was the leader who wanted the USAAF bases in Ukraine to be used to supply Warsaw. Roosevelt was the one who stopped them from being so used.

Hhhmm? And? Perhaps you should reread my post which presumably fuelled your tirade. Does my post lend hand to the relevance of your reply?

Not really.

BTW - as you point out in later posts, it wasn't really Roosevelt who stopped the air supply via Ukraine, so what you said wasn't really a fact, but merely an opinion that you rushed into because you wanted to button bash a quick response to me.

You do remember the lesson I gave you on the importance of distinguishing fact from opinion, dont you? If not, I suggest you revisit and revise.
Harry  
14 Aug 2008 /  #39
it wasn't really Roosevelt who stopped the air supply via Ukraine,

Churchill said 'Let's do it'. Roosevelt said 'No, the USA is not going to take part'. If Roosevelt had said 'Yes let's do it' those supply flights would have happened.

But I understand how you get confused with historical facts. That's why you don't get paid to write books and I do.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
14 Aug 2008 /  #40
If Roosevelt had said 'Yes let's do it' those supply flights would have happened.

Another opinion eh? Don't tell me -you just quoted the concluding remarks from your academic thesis that propelled you to the attention of your print/sweatshop overseers. What a masterful command of analysis you enjoy.

Seriously though, why don't you elaborate on that opinion with some tangible and credible analysis and findings? I know it's harder than quoting Norman line and verse, but give it a shot. If you mess up, I and other members will guide you.

That's why you don't get paid to write books and I do.

You've cut me down Harry and put me in my place, blundering broadsword that you are. In fact, amongst other things, I get paid to read books and other literature, rather than write them.

My day to day professional activities are recorded and transcribed into books too, by beings with greater clarity of thought and wit than you could ever aspire to - namely digital recording machines and electronic transcription devices.

Come back for more Harry - I'm having too much fun.
ukpolska  
15 Aug 2008 /  #41
Why don't you two just get your dicks out and see who's is bigger!!
HelenaWojtczak 28 | 177  
15 Aug 2008 /  #42
Why/how do all these intellectual, political discussions always end with "Who's got the biggest dick"?

s a British guy you can use me as a whipping post.

I think you mean whipping boy, sweetheart.
ukpolska  
15 Aug 2008 /  #43
I think you mean whipping boy, sweetheart.

It was an intended pun, as in to 'post' a message; not really hard to work out!!
Wroclaw Boy  
15 Aug 2008 /  #44
I have asked the question over the years to countless Polish people, "are you angry at what happened in the past?"
Not one person that I can recall answered yes, as their answer to me is, "what is the point, what is done is done and in the past."

So why do 90% of Poles absolutely hate the Germans then hey, hey?

And UKpolska we are well aware that youve been in Poland 8 years christ you post that one all over the show. What do you want a medal or something? Actually you deserve one for that stretch.
ukpolska  
15 Aug 2008 /  #45
So why do 90% of Poles absolutely hate the Germans then hey, hey?

I think you will find that this is a stereotype, and if you actually take time to ask Polish people do you hate Germans they will say no to the word "hate", but there is an obvious resentment towards Germans.

What do you want a medal or something? Actually you deserve one for that stretch.

Yeah that's not a bad idea!! I might fashion it in the same way as you display your ego around this forum :)
Wroclaw Boy  
15 Aug 2008 /  #46
I think you will find that this is a stereotype, and if you actually take time to ask Polish people do you hate Germans they will say no to the word "hate", but there is an obvious resentment towards Germans.

Crap

Yeah that's not a bad idea!! I might fashion it in the same way as you display your ego around this forum :)

I wonder how that would look
Ogorki - | 114  
26 Aug 2008 /  #47
but what's your point?

I'm answering your question.

what is the relevence of any of this to today?

the relevance is that people are still alive today - who were
fu*ked in the a*s in 1944 - and will have to live with that to their grave.
RESPECT them.

Many of us on this forum have lived here in Poland for years, I myself for eight years. You do not see Polish people crying over what was, rather the opposite they are survivors, and proud of this.

It's called honour and dignity. People from this generation are solid
men and women. They don't cry or moan. However - at their core -
believe me it's still very real.
LAGirl 9 | 496  
26 Aug 2008 /  #48
yeah god bless and be with those people they were brave to defend their country against evil.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768  
27 Aug 2008 /  #49
the relevance is that people are still alive today - who were
fu*ked in the a*s in 1944 - and will have to live with that to their graves
RESPECT them.

Relax.
Seriously, unless you participated in said events you've no business talking like you have been. The people that you're trying to tell me to respect certainly don't need you demanding it for them, that's not your job capiche?

Look at the topic of the thread: this guy says churchill was to blame for this that and another guy says roosevelt was.
Ukpolska and I ask "what's the point of this discussion?"
Then you come flying in with "millions died, you can't imagine (like you can?), respect them!"
No one's disrespecting them by asking the question we did.

Now you make an excellent point in saying the allies wanted to celebrate with a clear consciounse, great point but this is old news and a sad repeating phenomenon of history up to the present day- history is written by the victor. But you would do better to connect this to today's events than just demanding i walk around and be all respectful like all day.

Do you honestly think the average Pole wakes up and says "i'm gonna respect the fallen from our county's past today" or is it just an attitude people like to put on when it's convenient for them to talk down to others like you're doing?
LAGirl 9 | 496  
31 Aug 2008 /  #50
more power to Poland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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