Katyn- forgiven and forgotten?

Katyn must never be forgotten. My family who trusted Russia went to meet and fight with them only to have Polands "unarmed" men's hands tied behind their backs and shot in the head. Never has this world had to face such a barbaric situation. Polands front line from WWl woken in the night (Feb. 1940) as they slept with their family. Again "unarmed" farmers on reserve in eastern Poland. Taken to box cars and used in concentration camps as forced labor. Forgive means Russia needs to take full responsability and restitution to the families they destroyed. Poland was silenced to speak of this for far to long. Russia must understand the victims and their families remember and now cannot be forced into silence.

Note: I do not blame the present Russians for the sins of their fathers. At the same time it is them that have to clean up their fathers messes. They will be the better people for this and show the world they care. To not do so will leave many feeling they accept past actions. And healing, trust and respect will fail to grow.

Carol USA

Who would apologise? Some decrepit pensioner who probably didnt even take part,or some slimey toad like putin? Would an apology actually solve anything,did the apologies given in countless 1970s westerns for the slaughter of the plains indians bring them back?Did any apoligy by a country ever bring any solace for the families of those lost to brutality? Just be thankfull no Poles served in the far east,you certainly wouldnt be buying jappanese goods if your ancestors had been starved to death or beheaded in long rows and held for the entire war in those hell holes, Tokyos apologies mean nothing to the far east veterns I know,meetings with former foes and reconciliation direct with the people who were there on both sides is the only soloution,as this is not possible in the case of katyn Im afraid,from an outsiders point of veiw you have two simple choises; Ball yourselfs up in hate for long dead murderers and never move on, or remember it as the tragedy it was and move on a little from there,all this hate will only serve one purpose and that is to give you a righteous ulcer because it certainly wont bring back the stolen lives.

isthatu, Yes it is I. No we do not "Ball yourself up in hate" and yes "Putin" should stand up like a man for his country and take responsibility (once and for all) and verbally let the history book show that Russians are sorry that their forefathers committed these atrocious actions. After this they could ask how they can seek a resolve that may defer this behavior from ever taking place again. Without Putin taking these actions can they be trusted or for that matter start a positive relationship. They not only killed "unarmed" men in "Katlyn", what about the killing and deportation to Siberia of the Polish. We also await the same. Guess that sucks for Putin.

This is my take on the issue of apologies:

The thing of (possible) Russian apologies is actually pretty important for the future relations between Russia and Poland. As of now, the official line in Russia is (give or take) that Poland was the aggressor (cultural, military and political)against Russia, and an ungrateful one at that. After all, all Russians "know" that Poland has so much to be grateful for all the Russian "help" during communist times. They honestly think we owe them. While an average person off the street doesn't really have much say in politics between two countries (and certainly not a Russian person), the status quo does create a situation where any constructive co-operation and mutual tolerance is not really possible, except if Poland starts kissing the Russian butt. The amount of hatred towards Poland in Russia can be rivaled only by the hatred Chavez has towards the US.

Btw. I saw the movie. A piece of sad history but certainly ot a piece of art.

from papurec.org

Hi Poles,

I've seen Katyn film recently, this is masterpiece.

We have different history, in Soviet books there's different presentation of the fact. As well as that of horrible genocide, we call it ethnocide, that took lives of 10 millions (!!!!) of my people and not all the countries have recognised it as the crime of Soviets against Ukrainians! That was Stalin's reaction to our resistance to give our lands, abandon farming. They made people eat each other...

And GULAG. We haven't found the graves of our relatives, Soviets always sent them somewhere to Far East where they disappeared forever. Tortures weren't only physical, psychological were more monstruous. It horrifies, how human being, social one, could do it for another.

We studied one history at school, at homes we had another, forbidden to discuss with friends (our grandparents were still scared). The Socialist Revolution was created by the worst bastards, uneducated, criminals. The other leaders who saw communism as their real dream, commited suicide when they saw in what bloody reality has turned their "distant star of commune" (Mykola Khvylovy). Such authors as Bagrany, Barka appeared in our literature 10 years ago; their works created half a century ago are that bare truth, we're so eager to know.

We have different history with our parents. They were relatively happy with Soviet Union - free education, appartment, work. Our grandparents are full of hatred to communism, not all of them, though. Those ones, who were parasites, were always happy, the real faces of Soviet power.

We're grieving with you, all our respect, pain and light memory to millions and millions victims of that unhuman criminal Soviet machine.
Never and never forget...

Merged: Katyn 'poisons' Polish-Russian relations

Seems the time is at hand for Russia to take responsibility for actions. It does not seem to me that Russia understands that this must take place to move forward. Can they really feel this will just go away. Long term you would think they would be able to look at their actions in the past just as all other nations have had to do and deal with it. Thoughts?

"Former foreign secretary Adam Rotfeld, a member of a bilateral history commission, urges Moscow to be more open about the perpetrators of the 1940 murder of 20,000 Polish officers, know as the Katyn massacre."

"Moscow's seeming indifference to the sensitive subject of Soviet treatment of Polish prisoners has helped sour relations between Poland and Russia."

"In July it was reported that a new school text book will paint Stalin as an efficient leader and the killing of Polish officers in Katyn was "revenge", committed by Poland during the 1920 war between the two countries."

Moscow's seeming indifference to the sensitive subject of Soviet treatment of Polish prisoners has helped sour relations between Poland and Russia.

Dziekuje. :) Vi dobry. Mi vas lubim.


It is bloody all the way... not only in the end. I watched it few days ago the very first time. The feelings I experienced were close to what I'd felt when terrorist killed children in Beslan and it had been showed on TV... Words are useless here. There're some events in the history of any nation one would better forget about.

Actually I can't blame Poles for their average attitude towards Russians. That what I felt rightaway after watching.

OMG are you seeing another point of view. :) The attitude is not towards the Russian citizens but your goverment that continues to lie and now teach this to your children. This renewed worship of "Stalin" boasting his actions is a slap in the face to the victims.

It is a false sense of nostalgia. The Russian people, as whole were victims just as the Poles and other satellite states they USSR manipulated. Putin is a hard line ex-KGB guy... if he remains in control, I say we will see another Cold War.

Stalin looked upon Poles and pigs and ignorant people, yet his own people drank the kool aid... or they were shipped off to the gulag. I have to admit that I look down my nose at Russians, but I think it is well deserved.

celinski,

is there a new development on the issue or you just like rehashing this topic frequently? Just curious.

I don't do it. All in all if not their army we would be German servants or we would be exterminated. Milions were killed in 5 years of occupation by the Germans. Russians killed some people too but ... it wasn't about nation extermination..

Celinski likes to remind us every once in a while, just in case we forget...

i see. dzięki

Prosze...

You know, its good that some of us, like Celinski, are so relentless in their pursuit of justice, otherwise nothing would ever get done in this matter.

Celisnki is right in this case and you will see that we are very close to success in throught dialogue.

Maybe this will help.

The case of the Katyn massacre has found its way to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. A plaint against Russia has been filed by heirs of Polish officers murdered there by the NKVD in 1940. A year ago, another plaint was lodged by Memorial, a Russian non-governmental organisation that has for years been demanding that the whole truth about the massacre be told.

Interesting article, Celinski.

People share a misconception that a genocide cannot occur again because of World War II and international outcry - see [hawaii.edu/powerkills/PERSONAL.HTM] for some staggering numbers of genocides post-WW2.

Also, FWIW, I do appreciate the Katyń posts as it is an area that is not only next to my academic heart but one that I too feel must never be forgotten. My biggest fear is the continued white-wash of this topic in Russia and by her government, and since the rate of World War Two veterans dying off each month is a staggering 8000+ we will lose true objectivity, truth, and witnesses to this crime only to end up forgotten or celebrated by a minority like the Armenian Genocide of 1915.

Katyń is the one time I do not feel manipulative calling and crying "victim". An easy internet search at an academic website will show the numbers of the Poles that the Russians killed during September 17, 1939 to May 31, 1945, but off of the cuff I know it is equal if not greater than the NAZI-German death count.

Russians have never had any problem with killing people, even its own, which by modern accounts historian Norman Davies puts Soviet deaths of their own people (i.e., the Revolution of 1917 to the fall of communism in '89) at >55 million conservatively.

The Soviet machine is guilty of crimes against humanity, and her people victims.

Socialism, Communism, and Facism is bad; and history has proved that any of those 'options' has never worked. Even Lenin's model was change and altered by Stalin. Stailin's model replaced by Khruschev's 'Communism with a Human Face' model, and so on.

As kooky as people in the EU/world think America is... we've a splendid model based on freedom with responsibilities; strong and opininated, a true multi-party system.

IMO This is the reason responsability must be taken. In order to change the full history. Russia knows that with "Katyn" comes 1.8 million sent to Siberia, killing of Polish officers that were serving as allies, not to mention there own military if they tried to assist Poland. It's the domino effect that Russia has kept from falling. Here is some of the outcome. Many feel Poland should have just left the meeting.

"The sessions of the Polish - Russian historical commission have not gone very smoothly either. The commission gathered to explain all circumstances, as the members said, of the crime committed by Stalin's regime and finally solve the question of the Katyn genocide. However, opening the meeting, Russian foreign minister said it was a heresy to compare Stalin's rule with Hitler. Commentators started wondering what does each side consider as solving the divisive issues. Examining the truth or shutting down the debate once and for all?"

"Finally, after two days of discussions, the commission decided on a joint publication. Polish and Russian historians are to describe most controversial issues from their separate points of view and these are to be published within one book, chapter by chapter in two voices. The book is to be out in two languages in 2009."

"This Russian attempt to revise history, although not supported officially by the Kremlin or Russian authorities are aimed at a propaganda effect among Russians and many

simple Russians indeed believe it's true.'"

polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul94680_Polish_Russian_

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Daniel_Rotfeld

"Rotfeld was born in Przemyślany near Lwów, Poland (now Lviv, Ukraine). He is of Jewish origin, but was baptised Christian in his childhood. Rotfeld is married to Barbara Sikorska-Rotfeld and has one daughter, Alicja, born in 1971."

What do you think about him Celinski ?

I just looked at your link and he seems to have a very impressive record. I have not read any of his books yet.