I don't think so, you included Poles in your sentence in post#260.
Ok....my sentence construction was poor.........I meant the Irish.....
So, what was with the"racist" protests re the clip, and removing it?
Basically...if there was some old guy spouting anti Jewish rubbish I didn't want to watch it....not interested in how reasonable or mild it was.....or if it was anti Polish or Irish...etc...still not interested.....
Jews... and their Polish experience... This is an awful broad topic. But Ok, lets try to analyze it.
Everyone that says that Polish-Jewish relationship in the past was an ideal one is, to put it very mildly, being naive. However, every person that tries to compare Polish and German attitude towards Jews during and before WWII is just being plain biased and nasty.
Yes, there were polish Anti-Semites before WWII, just as they were present in every country in Europe at that time. And yes, I know about few "pogroms" during the times of German occupation in which polish people took part, Jedwabne being probably the most known one, although historians still don't know if it wasn't a nazi provocation, but is this enough to call entire nation anti-semitic?
November 1942 - the whole population of village Obórki was killed for helping Jews. ( 22 families killed - only two survivors). The village was then burned down.
6 XII 1942 - village Rakówko - 10 people burned alive for helping Jews.
13 III 1943 - Przewrotne village - 30 people killed for hiding Jews.
10 VI 1943 - Hucisko village - 21 people killed.
28 VI 1943 - Cegłowo 21 people.
18 IX 1943 - 4 related with each other families, together with children 22 people.
February 1944 - Huta Pieniecka - 1000 people killed for hiding Jews.
6 XII 1942 - 21 people were burned alive for hiding Jews in Ciepielowo Stare: Władysław Kosior(age 42), his wife karolina (40), their 6 children: Aleksander (18), Tadeusz(16), Władysława (14). Mieczysław (12), Irena (10), Adam (6); Adam Kowalski (42), his wife bBrinisława (40), and their 5 children: Janina (16), Zofia (12), Stefan(6), Henryk (4), Tadeusz(1); Piotr Obuchiewicz (58) and his wife Helena (35), and their 4 kids Władysław (6), Zofia (3), Janina (2) and one infant.
The list goes on.... At least 50 000 Poles lost their lives trying to help Jews during the WWII. Further more Poles are the biggest group in the list of people who were helping Jews during the WWII, The righteous among the nations" created by the "Yad Vashem Instytute" and only polish resistance had created a group in their organization responsible for helping the Jewish people. Not bad for an anti-semitic nation, innit.
The question is, would you frank be able to sacrifice not only your life, but also the life of your loved ones, for helping out some strangers. Is 50 000 dead people enough to say that a nation was not anti-semitic?
After the Germans conquered France, there were thousands of Jews send to concentration camps from Paris ad other French cities, something that never took place in occupied Poland, although the condition here was incomparably harder, and yet it is Poland that is being accused here on being anti-semitic. Strange isn’t it?
PS: Frank, don't take it personal. I understand that you are just being curious, and I would never accuse you of being polonophobic. Actually, you impress me, as it looks that you really are interested in Polish history and Poland in general. For that I salute you. Its juts that it really saddens me to hear that those allegations are still well and alive in Western Europe.
Thank you for the single most informative post...I've seen on nearly every board I have contributed to.
I will re-read this several times and try at least to remember those people who did their best and indeed gave their lives....all heroes....every last one.
How about the Poles killed by the Jews during WWII?
Take the village of Koniuchy where the whole population, a few hundred men, women and children, were murdered by the Jews- 'partisans'?
According to Norman Finkelstein, when somebody remarked to the famous Jewish writer (but plagiarist and con artist) Jerzy Kosinski that the Poles had done little to help the Jews during WWII, Kosinski (who by that time, i.e. shortly before his suicide, seemed to feel some remorse about his slandering Poles in his book 'The Painted Bird') asked snappingly what the Jews had done to help the Poles?
Jerzy Kosinski should've known better. - He and his parents spent the war protected by Polish villagers, whom young Kosinski later villified in The Painted Bird. And reportedly his father, who after the Russian 'liberation ' joined the Soviet 'security' apparatus murdering Polish patriots, helped arrest and ship to Siberia the very Polish man who had hid him from the Germans.
Sparrow, what do you mean by 'western history books'? :) Great posting, Matyjasz.
who wants to forget that so little western Europeans, has helped Jews during II world war.
There are tons of examples of Western Europeans who've helped jews.. From my experience in this part of Western-Europe I could name Anne Frank hiding in Amsterdam, jewish children being given a new identity & hidden in Antwerp & Brussels, the nuns in Bruges & northern France hiding refugee jews.
Call it what you want but go and read what Matyjasz wrote and then complain. How many of Western Europeans know about polish sacrifice for Jewish lives? And I am talking about numbers!
I read the entire thread & I'm no intrested in complaining. I've been educated my entire school life in Western Europe & I've been thaught about the sacrifices of Europeans to save jewish lives. Those of Poles as well. So when someone says the W-Europeans aren't aware of it, I beg to differ. 0.02c
So when someone says the W-Europeans aren't aware of it, I beg to differ.
So, how come so many Western Europeans still call us the bigest anti-semitic country of the world? Where on the world anti-semites die for Jews? And in Israel they wanna make us responsible for Holocaust. How do you explain that?
I'm not a historian or sociologist, I wouldn't know the definite answer.
I travelled a lot & I've lived in different European countries & I have a lot of friends from all around the world. No one considers Poland as the biggest anti-semitic country in the world.
However there have been articles in the past about anti-semitism in Poland, or when Kwasniewski visited Jedwabne or Radio Maryja being hateful towards jews. We do get those kinds of information once in a while.. I read 2 papers every day & I'd have to think really hard when it was the last time I read an article about it though.
All I can say is that children here are thaught of the sacrifice people have made to protect jews from the Nazis, including Eastern Europe, I'd have to dig up my school papers but it's defnitly there :). It's not uncommon to make field trips to Auschwitz either.
Do you have an article or source about Israel wanting to make Poland responsible for the Holocaust? I'd like to read up on that.
"eyewitness accounts"Oh so now we are listening to "eye witnesses" on facts?
Overall, what is your point? Albert Speer was an EYEWITNESS! He was at the Wannsee conference and admitted his own guilt. Norman Davies has documented the numbers in the Holocaust with reports from eyewitnesses, as have others like Anthony Beevor. How can the Holocaust have been a conspiracy, when it was well-documented by photographers, when the actual scale of the slaughter came as a shock?
I'm not angered by your ignorance, I'm saddened. When I was a kid I remember seeing my dad attract racism by Brits who didn't realise that, as a Pole, he had fought to keep their country free, and to get rid of the Nazis. Now you're attempting to perpetuate the same kind of pathetic behaviour. And doing a good job if making all Poles sound racist...
Do you have an article or source about Israel wanting to make Poland responsible for the Holocaust? I'd like to read up on that.
There was an article with a holocaust cartoon in one of the Israeli newspapers - Haaretz. It says about bad Polish people who want to kill young Jewish girls and good German who helps them.
I find it disgusting and think that the author is trying to shift the blame on Polish people.
(I read about it in Rzeczpospolita where you can see one picture ww.rzeczpospolita.pl/gazeta/wydanie_070510/swiat/swiat_a_9.html)
Unfortunately I cannot find the source with the pics on the Israeli newspaper web page (maybe someone else can).
Outrageous Jewish behavior in Poland. Young “tourists” from Israel demolishing our cities? In polish: w w w. wiadomosci.onet.pl/1409686,2677,1,kioskart.html
I wonder if anyone knows something about the Jewish population in Poland, when it started and how many of them lived there and how a staedtle could exist?
More severe punishments should be inflicted upon those who dare question The Holocaust, utter Seig Heil, Heil Hitler and all that rubbish, sport Nazi paraphernalia and insiginias. Being thrown in jail is mild in my opinion. Severity, harshness and an iron fist for those who dare question THE TRUTH!
More severe punishments should be inflicted upon those who dare question The Holocaust
Why so? It's ridiculous.. before I begin my endless rethoric.. I'm on your side, but seriously it's so one-sided. Every man on earth can change his view on history except when it comes down to the Jewish/Armenian Holocaust (& others)
Now, don't get me wrong, I despise people who question the holocaust or try to tell me that not 6 but "only 3" millions were killed or w/ever I think it's disguisting & it's wrong & they're pretty much ****** up..
But is it worthy of punishment? I one wants to rewrite French history, he can.. but if one wants to rewrite Holocaust he gets imprisoned in some countries. I cannot state enough that I despise these people.. however, you should be able to write -whatever you want- on a sheet of paper & not be imprisoned for it.
It's what Europeans fought for, for decades & no one is going to take that away from me.
