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Jews...and their Polish experience


kaliszer  
13 Jan 2008 /  #451
However if Israel withdrew to their original borders the arabs would not have any excuse to attack them.

That was part of the logic behind our withdrawal from southern lebanon a few years back. But Hizbullah started fighting again after they used the quiet to build bunkers and rocket launchers all over the south. When they attacked in summer 2006 there was no Israeli soldier in Lebanon.

It was also the logic behind the withdrawal from the Gaza strip, which included uprooting several Jewish towns and farming villages. There is not a single Jew in all the of the Gaza strip since then, and yet Hamas is firing rockets from there into civilian targets in Israel every day.

The arabs don't need an excuse to attack Israel. Israel's existence, inside any border at all, is the excuse. It's not a win-win situation. Wherever we withdrew, the situation got worse. Controlling other people is not a good situation but it's better than being hit with rockets.
southern  
13 Jan 2008 /  #452
1939-45 Germans attacked Poland and killed Jews
1950 - German Nazis attacked Poland and killed Jews
1960 - Nazis attacked Poland and killed Jews
1970 - Jews were killed in Nazi occupied Poland
1980 - Jews were killed in Poland
1990 - Poles killed Jews
2000 - Poles like killing Jews

2008:Poles killed Jews and Germans.
kaliszer  
13 Jan 2008 /  #453
A brief history of "ww2 history":

You're right that the story changes as people's perspective changes. In the end you can't even recognize the original events.
Today it's become fashionable for "enlightened" people to take the blame for all the world's problems. When I visited Auschwitz, an American girl on our tour said "We're all to blame for Auschwitz", meaning the whole world. I argued with her on the spot and told her that if we're "all to blame" then really no one is to blame. You can't let the Germans off that easy. They were to blame, and so was anyone who helped them.
Lukasz  
13 Jan 2008 /  #454
They were to blame, and so was anyone who helped them.

here we are, Poles don't feel responsible. Polish point of view: 3 mln Jews killed 3 mln Poles killed. Polish home army was killing collaborators. Do you feel guilty because of Jewish Police collaborating with Germans in Gettos ? no because most of Jews were vitims.
kaliszer  
13 Jan 2008 /  #455
I didn't say anything about Poles. I said that whoever helped the Germans to do what they did was also to blame. I think you can agree with that.
matthias  
13 Jan 2008 /  #457
even though the israeli governement withdrew they did not withdrawal to the original borders. so the terrorists keep using that as an excuse and for the west its hard to argue with that. so if israel did withdrawal then all in the west would have no choice to agree with israel if the attacks continue because they would be convinced that the arabs will never agree to peace.
kaliszer  
14 Jan 2008 /  #458
In Gaza we pulled out completely to the old border.
In Lebanon we also pulled out to the old border and the UN confirmed that. Then the Hizbullah claimed that the Shaba farms area ( a tiny area of a few square kilometers overlooking the northern galilee) was part of Lebanon too. But the UN and Israel say it's part of the Golan which was taken from Syria in 1967. That piece of territory is subject to negotiations with Syria, if and when that happens. So you see, the Hizbullah will use any excuse to attack. If we gave them Shaba, they would claim that some villages in Israel are also theirs (they already started talking about something like that).
joepilsudski  
14 Jan 2008 /  #459
In Gaza we pulled out completely to the old border.

Sure, Kalizer...but why stay in Gaza when you can surround it with troops, jets, helicopters and bulldozers when you cna go in anytime you want and decimate the city and the people, while operating from a safe distance?...tell me, do your Noachide laws come into play when you attack Palestinian women & children, not to mention the men?...or, are they idolaters subject to death?...now, many Palestinians ARE radicalized,

but when dealing with a state that has as it's ultimate aim expulsion of all Palestinians,
what would a reasonable person expect?...the Jews are still collecting money from Germany for it's racist policies: why shouldn't the Palestinians get a billion or so a year from the Israeli government for reparations?...after all, you took their land...you are from Lithuania, Poland, Latvia or somewhere in Eastern Europe: this is the land of your forefathers, not the Holy Land....fair is fair.
matthias  
14 Jan 2008 /  #460
the situation is complicated all I advocate is return to orginal borders created after ww2 what ever they are I would have to see the orginal ww2 document. not only in lebanon or gaza but everywhere you occupy since the arab israeli war. if you do that then you will have my complete support. even will serve in your army once you do that to keep the peace.
Przemas  
14 Jan 2008 /  #461
A brief history of "ww2 history":

1939-45 Germans attacked Poland and killed Jews
1950 - German Nazis attacked Poland and killed Jews
1960 - Nazis attacked Poland and killed Jews
1970 - Jews were killed in Nazi occupied Poland
1980 - Jews were killed in Poland
1990 - Poles killed Jews
2000 - Poles like killing Jews

I read this and thought of a certain post I just recently read on another message board.

"The reason why the Jews were unable to revolt is because no one was on their side.

When the Germans came to Poland to take away the Jews, the Poles LET THEM. They helped round them up. They helped make it all happen. Same in Czechoslovakia. Same in Russia. Same thing everywhere the Nazis went.

What you fail to understand - all of you - is that NOBODY CARED ABOUT THE JEWS.

Well...not nobody....but nobody big enough to be willing to fight for them.

It was only when the real atrocities started to be known that anyone started to care. Or rather, should I say, once the faint outline of the atrocities came to be known. In truth, I believe that very few people actually knew what was going on in the camps until after they were liberated."
joepilsudski  
14 Jan 2008 /  #462
A brief history of "ww2 history" 'Polish-style':

1939-45: Nazis & Communists view Poland as 'piece of meat' at the butcher shop and take turns hacking at the carcass.
1944-45: 'Big 3': Roosevelt, Churchill agree Poland is worthy of only betrayal, so they
decide that 'Uncle Joe' Djugashvilli can bring it permanently ino the 'Communist orbit'.
1939-45: Nazis come hunting for Jews in Poland; Communists use them as 'fifth column' to 'pacify' Poland

NOBODY CARED ABOUT THE JEWS.

This is true to a large extent...and if they did care, it was in a negative way...but which
Jews really suffered?...it was the average, poor Jew who didn't have the means or con-
nections to escape or buy off the authorities...remember this: it is always the poor people who suffer most in war, because they are just so much cannon fodder...but let's

not forget the millions of poor Poles, Germans, Ukranians, Russians and others who were just meat for the grinder also...when the well-armed criminals come, woe to the

average decent person.
WAKEUPPOLAND2  
14 Jan 2008 /  #463
So you see, the Hizbullah will use any excuse to attack. If we gave them Shaba, they would claim that some villages in Israel are also theirs (they already started talking about something like that).

Looks like your trying your CNN tactics' and warped logic here again to confuse the forum and come out looking like the victim.

Lets talk facts....forget about 1967 for a minute....and try to get to the roots of the issue...

The population of Israel is now 80% Jewish, from the original 2% in 1870. That's serious population growth it sounds like enthnic cleansing...so you were talking about keeping the Shaaba Farms which you took in 1967.
matthias  
14 Jan 2008 /  #464
its not ethnic cleansing lol their has been mass immigration to israel from poland russia usa and many other countries.. not defending israeli policy but lets not make up sh*t. also for you who said the ethnic cleansing comment. tell me what you would do if rockets and sucide bombers target your country. I see it as self defence. my problem is that you wouldn't need to defend yourself if you went back to your original borders.
kaliszer  
15 Jan 2008 /  #465
all I advocate is return to orginal borders created after ww2 what ever they are

There were no borders at that point. At the end of WWII the palestine mandate included all of what is now Israel, Gaza and the West bank. The UN voted to divide the area between a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted this compromise and declared independence on the day the British left. All the Arab countries and the local Arabs as well refused to accept the UN decision and invaded the jewish state in order to destroy it. Jordan took over what they conquered west of the jordan. Egypt took over gaza. Neither country allowed the creation of a palestinian arab state.When the fighting stopped, there were ceasefire lines that became known as the green line, which was the defacto border between Israel, Egypt and Jordan till 1967 when they attacked again. This time we conquered all of what was in the original mandate.

So going back to original borders would mean going to the ceasefire lines of 1949. Some Israelis advocate that too. I don't. Those weren't international borders but an arbitrary ceasefire line. I personally favor autonomy for arab areas west of the jordan, but not a separate state, which would only be a base for endless terrorism. I don't agree with your assumption that a return to the ceasefire lines would end the terorism since experience has shown that withdrawal has the opposite effect. But this is a legitimate argument and you're entitled to your opinion.
Wyspianska  
15 Jan 2008 /  #466
Okay, what you all can even say about Jews. Probably never meet any. So many people think bad of them but i fu*ck don't care on such hypocrites. Why? I'm a Jew.
AvJoeUK  
15 Jan 2008 /  #467
Why? I'm a Jew.

So you like to think... :)
Wyspianska  
15 Jan 2008 /  #468
I have no idea what are you trying to do now.
AvJoeUK  
15 Jan 2008 /  #469
Nothing! Im not trying to do anything.... ;)
Wyspianska  
15 Jan 2008 /  #470
I know well you are at work right now. So move your as*s and do things which they pay you for.
isthatu  
15 Jan 2008 /  #471
The Jews accepted this compromise and declared independence on the day the British left.

This is acceptance after murdering British soldiers on a scale even the ira never managed,British soldiers who were there to keep the peace between armed arab thugs and armed jewish thugs,often leaning with their support to the jewish organisations only to be literaly stabbed in the back. Israel was created by terrorism,why is anyone surprised it is still experiancing terror? The whole idea of its creation was an ill concieved pipedream and deeply hypocritical as the world had just come out of a devastating war that cost the lives of countless millions against the evils of land grabbing and forgiegn invadors thinking they had divine rights over someone elses homes.
Lukasz  
15 Jan 2008 /  #472
isthatu

OMG how can you writte such a things about your nation ... yes it is true converts are the worst.
matthias  
15 Jan 2008 /  #473
isthatu I agree with you what do you suggest getting rid of israel. it was a mistake of the parties at yalta. its to late israel is not going anywhere, we must except that and learn to go from here. just as the palastines arent going anywhere and we must accept that.
isthatu  
15 Jan 2008 /  #474
exactly matthies,we might not agree on much but I think we do here. It is irelevent whethere ANYONE thinks that Israel should or should not have been created. Thats a cozy academic argument. The reality is it is there,people with no connection to the shady way it was created live and work and try to live normal lives there now and as such deserve to do so in peace and saftey.

To polarize and say,Israel -bad to Palestinians,Arabs good to them is just plain wrong. One of the major factors in the tensions of the area is the fact that since the refugees fled to neighbouring Arab states those states have had no interest in intergrating the palestinains into their own comunities or even giving them a little patch of their own land. In many ways the palastininans have been the patsy for the various unsavoury rulers surounding Israel/Palestine and as such their suffering has been caused by both sides.

OMG how can you writte such a things about your nation ... yes it is true converts are the worst.

What the fek are you on Lukasz? what on earth do you mean convert? I havnt converted to or from anything,Im agnostic,my direct ancestors are a split mix of catholic and presbeteryan,all from a nations that have had an established christain church 500 years before your country existed,I think you ARE PICKING UP ON THE FACT WEEKS AGO i MENTIONED HAVING JEWISH FAMILY MEMBERS......YOUR ANTI SEMITISM IS SHOWING ITS FACE BABY....you know,its not illegal to have jewish relatives here buddy or indead marry someone of another faith,we dont generally burn or hang converts here,havnt done for a long long time,we leave that to less enlightened papist sociaties.........
matthias  
15 Jan 2008 /  #475
isthatu nicely said. yeah your right we don't agree on much but when in comes to this issues im glad we agree.

for the person who commented that return to original borders won't stop terrorism. I didn't say it will (it might but probably not). I advocate that because I think it is the right thing to do palastines deserve their own country plus it will improve israels international image. if israels image is improved then other countries will do more to protect israel from terrorism.
isthatu  
15 Jan 2008 /  #476
yeah your right we don't agree on much but when in comes to this issues im glad we agree.

and like ive said elswhere,and come to think of it,so have you,nothings black and white,I will often argue shades of gray or play a little devils advocate just to get the juices flowing ,so to speak.
matthias  
15 Jan 2008 /  #477
isthatu I noticed, and might I add your very good at it. I hope Im not shooting my self in the foot when I say Keep doing what you do.
isthatu  
15 Jan 2008 /  #478
Keep doing what you do.

lets just tone down the levels of abuse we can both sometimes throw around here. Its not big,and its not clever.We may know we are not serious but others may not:)
matthias  
15 Jan 2008 /  #479
laughing out loud Good Point. Explains why I feel so misunderstood.
lesser  
15 Jan 2008 /  #480
isthatu I agree with you what do you suggest getting rid of israel. it was a mistake of the parties at yalta. its to late israel is not going anywhere, we must except that and learn to go from here. just as the palastines arent going anywhere and we must accept that.

Mistake or not, this is not our problem. What we should do is stay out from some local conflicts which have no impact on our national interests.

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