Are Germans going to pay for WW2?

Everyone knew Stalin's true colors and when Katyn was uncovered, allies should have regrouped. There's safety in numbers.

Why was Stalin even asked if Poland could recieve assistance? Poland was an allie and USA/Brits never should have asked. IMO They should have just helped. Remember Stalin was in need of air support and supplies asking USA for help. In the Presidential notes when the planes from the USA were to be used for Soviets one question was asked prior to granting Stalin's request, What is in Sibera? This question was neven given in reply as stipulated, yet the planes flew over Stalin's concentration camps.

American planes never flew over Siberia in WW2.


And USA was in need of soviet advance to keep Germans away from the western front.

I will find the conversation in the Roosevelt Musuem files.

Should be relevent then since Roosevelt died April 12th 1945 and world war 2 or VE day was on 7th May 1945

Dont know how he could have influenced what happened after the war ended if he was dead?

Poland in ww2 -



Britain in world war 2 -

Thats naughty but it tickled me abit

Lions are so lazy...females do everything ;) There's nothing to be proud of here noimmi ;)

noimmigration going to store.


The files I refer to are from the full term and org. documents between all parties.

Greenback

Why do you even bother to ask when you're not willing to listen? Krzysztof gave you a reasonable explanation and all you can do is come up with a pathetic excuse. What I would like to see is a compelling argument on your part dismissing this point of view. No one here is trying to convince you that allies betrayed Poland. This debate is not about; what could have been done after the war? This is not even a premise for this discussion. To understand it better some historical background of which you might not be aware is required.

So let's start with Polish government. The Polish Government in Exile, based first in Paris and then in London, was recognized by all the Allied governments. When Germany attacked the Soviet Union Joseph Stalin started to seek help from other countries opposing Hitler. Strongly encouraged by British Foreign Office Sikorski opened negotiations with the Soviet ambassador to London, to re-establish diplomatic relations between Poland and the Soviet Union. Later that year, Sikorski went to Moscow with a diplomatic mission. Sikorski was the architect of the agreement reached by both governments, that was finally signed on August 17, 1941. The Polish Government in Exile established diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union, despite Stalin's role in the earlier dismemberment of Poland. The Sikorski-Mayski Agreement was a treaty between Soviet Union and Poland signed in London in 1941. Joseph Stalin agreed to declare all previous pacts he had with Nazi Germany null and void, invalidate the September 1939 Soviet-German partition of Poland and release tens of thousands of Polish prisoners-of-war held in Soviet camps. Pursuant to an agreement between the Polish government-in-exile and Stalin, the Soviets granted "amnesty" to many Polish citizens. This demonstrates the willingness to use legitimate Polish government in Exile to negotiate with Stalin to achieve their objective and further strengthens the legitimacy of this government accepted by all sides USSR and Allies. Stalin then severed relations with the Polish Government in Exile when it was apparent that it would be the Soviet Union, not the western Allies, who would liberate Poland from the Germans, this makes it unmistakable what the objective of the USSR was and whether they were friend or foe.

Now let's look at the formation of Polish army in USSR; Hundreds of thousands of Polish soldiers who had been taken prisoner by the Soviets in eastern Poland in 1939, and many civilian Polish prisoners and deportees, were released. Both Gulag prisoners and deported exiles were officially freed, and allowed to join a new division of the Polish army, to be formed on Soviet soil. Following rumors of the formation of Polish army, the released Polish prisoners hitchhiked and rode trains around the Soviet Union, looking for the Polish army to join. Some joined General Anders army, they were evacuated to Iran and the Middle East, where they were desperately needed by the British, hard pressed by Rommel's Afrika Korps. These Polish units formed the basis for the Polish 2nd Corps, which together with other, earlier-created Polish units fought alongside the Allies. Some eventually joined the Kosciuszko division, a Polish division of the Red Army. Others had to wait for the war to end to be repatriated. Still others never left at all. To this day, some of their descendants still live in ethnic Polish communities in Kazakhstan and northern Russia. It also demonstrates the intentions of Soviet Government since the released prisoners were simply not told the true purpose of their release but to get a residence permit or find work instead.

The Cairo Conference 1943. The three main clauses of the conference are that "Japan be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of 1914", "all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China", and that "in due course Korea shall become free and independent".

Now let's move forward to the core of the matter.

Tehran Conference 1943 in Tehran, Iran well ahead of the final outcome of the war. The Big Three Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill. Major conclusions of that conference; Britain and the U.S. promised Stalin that they would send troops to Western Europe. It was agreed that they would arrive in the spring of 1944. At the insistence of Stalin, the borders of post-war Poland were determined along the Oder and Neisse rivers and the Curzon line. Even though Poland was an ally with a legitimate government in place it is conveniently missing from this conference even though it concerns the future of Poland and its final borders.

The Yalta Conference 1945 all three leaders were trying to establish an agenda for governing post-war Germany. Also, the Big Three agreed that all original governments would be restored to the invaded countries with the exception of the French government which was regarded as collaborationist, in Romania and Bulgaria the Soviets had already liquidated most of the government, the Polish government in exile was to be excluded and that all civilians would be repatriated. Democracies would be established and all countries would hold free elections and European order restored per this statement.

Stalin stated the Soviet case:


The Russians would keep the territory they had already annexed in eastern Poland, and Poland was to be compensated for that by extending its Western borders at the expense of Germany. Stalin promised free elections in Poland despite the recently installed Communist puppet government.

Key points; the status of Poland was discussed. It was agreed to reorganize the communist Provisional Government of the Republic of Poland that had been set up by the Red Army. The Polish eastern border would follow the Curzon Line, and Poland would receive territorial compensation in the west from Germany.

The Potsdam Conference 1945 the final nail in the coffin, again The Big Three. The French were not invited to participate and although Poland made the fourth-largest troop contribution to the Allied war effort, after the Soviets, the British and the Americans, Polish leaders were not invited to participate in the conference even though earlier they had been promised entry.

The goal of the conference establishment of post war order.
Key points; Stalin proposed and it was accepted that Poland was to be excluded from division of German compensation to be later granted 15% of compensation given to Soviet Union which has never happened. A Provisional Government of National Unity recognized by all three powers should be created. Recognition of the Soviet controlled government by the Western Powers effectively meant end of recognition for the existing Polish government in Exile. Poles who were serving in the British Army should be free to return to Poland, with no security upon their return to the communist country guaranteed. The provisional western border should be the Oder-Neisse line, defined by the Oder and Neisse rivers. Parts of East Prussia and the former Free City of Danzig should be under Polish administration. However the final delimitation of the western frontier of Poland should await the peace settlement which would take place at the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany in 1998.

Given all those facts it is obvious that the major players were trying to establish new geopolitical reality of the post war world beginning in 1943. I'm not suggesting that Poland was a major player and should have been a part of those meetings which determined the faith of the world, but it should have been included or at least consulted on the parts that was to be our future. In 1943, at the time when Allies political support for Poland was crucial we were dishonored by the so called allies and friends. I left out the speculations and motives behind the decisions it's irrelevant and simply stated the facts. You might call it a raw deal, bad luck, new political reality or whatever other name you wish but we call it betrayal, and it hurts even more when it's perpetrated by your so called friends.

Now if you like to discuss it at length with someone I suggest you find yourself a Pole and have this conversation over a paint of beer. I'm sure you will find him/her very opinionated and the conversation pleasant but you will not be able to change their opinion on this topic. The resentment is there that's true, but to simply assert that you're hated more than others is false. In any case you're entitled to your opinion.

LOL,good luck getting a sensible answer to that one :)
Ive often had the feeling there is some perception in Poland that somehow all was doom and gloom there in 45 but roses and wine in the rest of (non Soviet sphere) Europe. Yes,pre war the UK had been the mighty Empire,one third of the world under the crown,but,after 6 long years of war(on all fronts around the entire world) the country was half starved and bankrupt. One thing I hear in retort to that is,"well britain got the Marshall plan aid money" sorry,no it didnt,not a penny in post war reconstruction.What we had were huge debts to pay back,starting immedietly to the US and a country to reconstruct,Warsaw was not the only city to feel the germans bombs...

Our armed forces were exhausted,yes,we may always have had allies alongside us but for 3 years essentially we were going it alone,footing the bill too in money and blood,by 45 the barrel had been scraped raw in terms of manpower for the forces and esentialy industry,as witnessed by the fact that thousands of Poles got jobs and a new life here after the war.

Really,what do those who say britian should have done something expect? A full scale war that,quite frankly in 1945 would have led to all of Europe being under soviet domination as the wests forces were no where near a match for the huge soviet forces by this time.Someone mentioned the A bomb,well,the only 2 A bombs in the world had been used,counting that out as an option for a good few months,besides,by 45 the world was sick of slaughter,so were many Poles,even if now its not fashionable to admit it,after all a civil war raged there in full till 47 and spluttered on into the 50s,you cant have a civil war without to opposing sides of the same nationality,ie plenty of Poles were satisfied with,or activly supportive of the status quo in the post war period.

edit after seeing the above...
blah blah blah...simple fact,USSR not ocupied Poland was the Big Guy in tthe eyes of the western allies, the war wasnt won by rigidly sticking honerably to handshake agreements it was won by real politic,ie,hhhmmmm,so,whos toes we gonna step on,a few thousand exiled Poles completly armed and equiped by us or the might of the USSR???? Which option is likely to lead to the deaths of hundreds and thousands more of our people,not to mention millions of others around the world,and which action wont????? In the case of the US and UK there is a reason why we have not been ocupied in hundreds of years and you guys make a habit out of it,its called realisim,we leave our romantisism to books and bedrooms,not war.

[quote=isthatu2]plenty of Poles were satisfied with,or activly supportive of the status quo in the post war period.

What ones are you referring to? They went along and did what they had to in order to survive. Poland's miliary could not go back to Poland as they were enimies of the state and to be killed.

Carol,seriously,get real........Lets start with the other Polish government in exile,or the Lublin govt,what ever you want to term it...then lets look at your other statement...


forgeting the fact that Poland had a huge force called the LWP stationed in,er Poland,under Polands Polish run ,Polish communist party government.....oh and completly forgeting all the good little communist Poles in security forces such as the KBW,ya know,Polands version of NKVD field security police.....

May I suggest next time you vist the opticion you change the prescription on your glasses from the current Rose Tinted 'scrip :) Seriously love,there were,and probably still are,plenty of Poles as fully versed in Marx and Engals and as staunchly communist as any beardy cuban or pock faced georgian...

Apart from those there were plenty of people,probably a majority who,in all fairness dont give a stuff who sits in some distant power as long as they can put food on the table and bring up a family in peace.

Yeah just from casual observation you guys would have to admit that's a pretty good point. Have the continentals romanticized war? After Napoleon a lot of it could have been put to bed it seems. I won't get sanctimonious though, yanks have been pretty lucky as well.

Internal Security Corps, under the watchful eye of the KGB, The deployment of the KBW during the October crisis was of particular importance because it was the first time since World War II that Poland refused to accept blindly the mandates of her Soviet masters and, instead, followed her instincts as a nation of the brink of freedom. At the conclusion of the Second World War, the Soviets brought a very different kind of occupation to Poland. The Soviet occupation of Poland exceeded simple control by traditional military forces. In order to insure unquestioned compliance with communist doctrine, Stalin authorized the development of a secret police organization in Poland. This organization, advised and led by seasoned Soviet State Security (KGB) personnel, was made up of Polish citizens whose loyalty to Marxist ideology was beyond reproach. Soviet manipulation of this organization seemed to negate the already remote possibility of forming any sort of alliance which would pose a direct or indirect threat to the Soviet control of Poland.

stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oaiverb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&ident ifier=ADA167735

'Allies should have regrouped?' What does that even mean? Are you saying that Britain and the US should have started a new war against the USSR to save Poland from communism?


Because Stalin was to be the occupier. This was known well before it actually happened. Therefore his opinion on the matter was of some importance.


The USSR was an ally also and a crucial one. Poland was not.

Its interesting how the same people who like to say how Britain isnt an empire anymore and no longer powerful on the world stage also seem to think that we should be exercising this non-existent power for the benefit of others rather then ourselves.

I also think there is a tendency for smaller nations to see their own country as having a disproportionate influence on world affairs. They ask questions such as 'what does the rest of the world think of us?' when really no one much cares about them. This isnt intended as an insult to Poles as it has some validity to Britain also.

I have to be honest, when I see the amount of information various people have put on this subject and the various differences of opinion on it I find it quite daunting.

The problem I have with a lot of what people are saying is that your answers are not put in plain english - by that is looks to me like someone has gone on a website or copy and pasted a big chunk of an historical archive .. added a few lines of their own thoughts and called it their own words.

90 percent of people do not read historical literature like this in such depth - so I have to be honest I have never heard alot of the historical information that is stated by other people.

Therefore my comments are quoted in 'LAYMANS TERMS' are as we say plain english - meaning when you read the comments you do not feel like you are revising for a history degree lol.

I am sure the vast majority of Polish and certainly english are not 'well versed' on all the historical arguements you put foward. So my interest on why Polish people are so Pro - German / Avoid the Jewish Subject and point the finger of bitter resentment is a statement to the normal man on the street.

If your a professor or history expert i'm afraid I would need to read up on the subject more, which I intend to do! but at this time alot of what you are saying is beyond my knowledge sorry.

Ouch.


So you are saying this takeover was known prior to WW2?


What is the meaning of allies? Polish were on the same team. I fear the war would have turned out very differant for Brits had the Polish not covered your back, like they said they would. With the USA/Brits and Poland all defending each other Stalin would have had to back off. Polish could have gone home to their country, they did not need a Soviet dictator to take control.


Yes, if it was England vs. Poland think of how you would feel if USA/Poland said Stalin was better able to take over your people?

No one is questioning the poles got a raw deal but you cant blame everyone and your mother for the crimes committed by another state be it nazi germany or the Soviet Union / Russia.

The UK wasnt invaded due to one main reason we are an island so as long as we controlled the air any invasion attempt would have been suicidal and inflict heavy losses.

I remember my first holiday with my friends where we went to Jersey - a small island that was occupied most of WW2 by the Germans. On one particular day there there was a battle of britain airshow which me and my friends sat down to watch - I'll never forget this old guy walked up to us and starting talking about how he flew spitfires in WW2 and fought in the battle of britain which we all thought umm yer what ever and laughed it off - he told us the reason why England was never invaded was not so much down to the battle of britain but more down to the fact that the germans after invading Russia concentrated all their air power mostly on russia not us - the germans suffered heavy losses and never had the air strength to over throw the RAF again meaning an invasion would never happen with out huge unrecoverable losses for nazi germany.

So in a way Russia saved are asses lol

I often thought about this silly old man going on about being a war hero and in the battle of britain for years and it caused much amusment to me and my friends in conversation until ... one day I was watching the news and who's face was on the telly but the same old mans - he'd been taken hostage in the middle east and had just been realised and was going back home to Jersey. - I have never felt so ashamed in all my life and learned why we should respect everyone because you never know who your talking too!

On the 90th Anniversary of the infamous October Revolution in 1917, here's a piece of truth shredding the cover of lies scattered by the communist over the years.

This documentary originally called "Edward Griffin - The Truth About Communism" and features:

- An introduction by an eighty years old Alexander Kerensky, the first President of the Russia post-Tsarist Regime that was ousted by Communist in October.

- Narrator of this is Ronald Reagan.

- Documentary footage of the events, since Russian revolution to the Cold War. Special interest on the Spanish Revolution too

Well my friend, you don’t have to read history if you are not interested in the subject but if you don’t than don’t ask such questions. No one forces you to do so. I’m afraid that when you ask a simple question that you have asked, the answers you received will never satisfy you. The way I see it, the so called 'LAYMANS TERMS', as you have put it are nothing but a Spin, Greenback-Style. It’s a well known tactic that has been employed by every government in the world and proven to work throughout history. The term that most people are familiar with is propaganda. You take a simple statement that no one will dispute even if it’s only partially true and spin it to suit your needs, you continue to pump out your preferred versions of events and dismiss all others that are relevant to the topic. The information that I have provided in the previous post was for your benefit. When we have debates on any given topic we are all guilty of a certain amount of bias hence the difference of opinion. When someone asks the question he/she demonstrates the willingness to understand the other point of view but not necessarily seeing eye to eye or reaching an agreement. You have not shown such quality and you wonder why no one answers when you ask a sensitive and serious question like the Jewish issue. What you are looking for in a conversation is “You’re stupid” “NO you’re stupid” type. So keep having those debates I’m sure you will go far.

Best of luck to you and happy TROLLING.

I think you read my comment incorrectly - Maybe are cultures mean we see things differently.

I am actually interested in what you had to say but I myself do not like to comment on a subject if I have no experience of the perticular references you state.

It's as simple as that and not spinning or propaganda - All I am trying to do is gain an understanding into why certain people/cultures feel the way they do, no doubt there is some truth in everyones arguement if they can stir away from bias.

So I actually welcome your comments my friend and even see it as education which I sure is your own aim? to educate other cultures - if your polish i'm you will know what its like to not beable to express your views opening when you were under soviet rule?

This is what this forum is about it is not about pointing the finger.

Or it happens to their country.


I want to remind you of 1920 and Polish being able to take care of Soviets on there own. Oh thats right they didn't say ask first.

Greenback old buddy,ignore piruns bitter little comments mate:)
Its the sign of a poor teacher when he cant get a point acros,not a poor student.

Dont be entirely retarded,take a day off now n again.....it may help.

1,The Polish didnt take care of the soviets on their own in 1920. Almost all arms and equipment were given by western powers,Britain France USA etc

2, The soviets were in the middle of something called the russian civil war at the time,you know,reds vs whites etc etc, Poland was just one front in a war that spread through the whole of european and asian Russia.

3,WTF do you mean by "they didnt ask first"? Who,ask what? Poland was invaded,who would they need to ask?

4, The Soviet armed forces of 1920 were on the whole a complete rabble ,ill euiped,under fed and as previously stated,engaged in a war on many many fronts...This is a far cry to the Soviet armed forces in 1945,the worlds largest land and airforces by factors of thundreds.

So,again,the question is ,why should the whole world have been risked once again? Why should millions of lives have been risked ,for what? Some may retort and say" but Poles fought for britain in the battle of britain and italy etc.." and I will always say,no,Poles fought in the hope of defeating the germans and freeing Poland,ie,for Poland. Yet Poles expect other nations to sacrifice themselves for poland when they themselves have a chance to live in peace after a long and bl oody war????

Firstly, where the f*ck is the rest of the thread?

Absurd and random but on this message board not surprising.


No, but during most definiterly.


You're beginning to sound increasingly niave with each post. How did Poland 'cover our back'?
You're also sounding lilke you're saying that Poland had some sort of crucial role in the outcome of the victory in Europe. Is that what you're saying?


To say we should have another war against the USSR immediatly after WW2 shows a staggering lack of knowledge and understanding of the situation in Europe at that time. We're talking about the potential deaths of millions more people.


I'd be p1ssed off. However I'm under no illusions that if it suited Poland at the time this is exactly what they would do.

Cellinski, I dont mean to be rude but it seems like you get your history lessons from YouTube and 1950s American war films. All the 'I got your back buddy' and 'never leave a man behind' guff is not the real world.

We will never know, will we? You seem to think leaving Poland to "Communism" with millions of people losing a country in the hands of a barbaric murdering dictator is insignificant. WW2 killing of Polish did not end with the war. Polands military is listed 4th in the line up, yet from your post you sound as if it was OK to use them and in the end thrown them to the curb.

You also assume Stalin would have the money and power to fight USA, Britian and Poland. Lets see USA gave money and supplies to keep them in the game, stop this and turn the tables I can't see Stalin going to very far. Not to mention Nazi's still standing on the sidelines waiting to see how far Stalin could go.


yes I am, each person that fought served a "crucial role". Each life that was taken was an important person reguardless of where they were from. Lets see if Poland did not take the first blow from Nazi and Soviets combined what others would have been up against?

Sadly the outcome was differant for Poland as in the end they were shafted.


We saw this as Poland was attacked and were on there own yet even after this follow the war and Poland fought from start to finish on all fronts.


Why was it Stalin's "Uncle Joe" who decided if your allies, "Polish military" received help?

FYI this is 1919-20

It was Poland that attacked Soviets first. Why are you always protecting Soviets? Good thing Poland won as Lenin would have continued throughout Europe.

FYI After minor conflicts in 1919, in April 1920 a Polish force invaded Ukraine, took Kiev in May. The Soviet Red Army launched a counteroffensive and reached the Vistula near Warsaw in August 1920, where they were defeated by the Poles (Miracle of the Vistula). A truce was signed in September, the Treaty of Riga (March 1921) ended the war. The Polish forces suffered c. 25,000 fatalities, the Russian forces c.105,000.

zum.de/whkmla/military/betwwars/russopol19191921.html

Well,in that case,the Soviets had every right under international law to crush the invaders didn't they?


Not always,as you jolly well. Besides,stating that it would have been suicide for the west to go to war with the USSR in 1945 is hardly " protecting Soviets" is it?


Would he buggery like. Seriously,Carol,Ive tried,but,your not very bright are you. Frankly I'm becoming inclined to agree with kilky that your knowledge of history seems to come from U tube propaganda fluff and old 50s war films.


Carol,lets get one thing straight,your an American,born in America,your not some old Polish veteran so I am not going to be as polite as I may be....(not because your a Yank;) just coz your not a vet')

Why was it up to Stalin ,well,for a start,WTF are you talking about? When the Polish armed forces in the west were being equipped by the British Stalin wasn't even in the picture,so had nothing,zero,nada to do with supplying "our" Poles,secondly,if your talking about re supplying the AK in Poland,well,sorry to burst your bubble but,the RAF managed alright re supplying without running to Stalin for permission,flying hundreds of missions....it was the USAAF and your US government that only flew one mission and backed off because the soviets didn't give permission for USAAF planes to breach Soviet airspace......

Seriously love,come back in a few years when you've read a few books and rejoin the debate,until then,I'm afraid,your just making yourself look silly.

This was 1919-20 and the Soviets lost.


Sometime when you really want to learn the truth, go to Roosevelt files and read the letters between Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin.
search.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/cgi-bin/htsearch

I agree.

My own family paid a price we still remember.

But then, these shouldnt be a reason for strife... but a reason which we can remember and try not to repeat it again.

The Germans can show more solidarity ... I think it will help their image... an image they might have to carry for a longer time...

All i ask of Germans is to drop the exiled bullcrap, they can keep their money lets not make Jews out of ourselves by prying money from people.

The Roosevelt files are not an accurate portrayal of the truth tho. What goes into some archives is hand picked. Roosevelt acquiesced to Russian demands, he was not the pro-Polish altruist that he is sometimes depicted as