Polish qualifications, what are they worth ?

I think 'licencjant' isn't the equivalent of BA. It would be the Polish 'magisterium' which is.

Some are worth more than others. All qualifications lose their value through time and they need to be coupled with relevant work experience. This is especially true in the areas of Law and Medicine.

I'd say that a Magister is pretty much the same as a good BA (i.e. 2:1 or above), maybe the Magister is slightly higher/better in some respects.

There is no direct comparison since there are two types of a Bachelor's degree in Canada.

One is a 3 year (pass degree) and it looks much like Polish licencjat. The other is a 4 year degree (honours degree) and that would be somewhere between Master's and Bachelor's.

It is also not uncommon to write a theses towards an honors degree. I never knew anybody doing the same towards a pass degree, but technically it is possible.

They were referring to the honours degree (or honors to be exact).

Then licencjat would be be a lesser degree. But it is definitely possible to do a thesis type of work towards an honor's degree in a few Canadian universities.

From what they were saying it is pretty much standard to do a thesis for an honours degree at Canadian universities and the requirements are a lot stiffer than those for a licencjat. Unfortunately there were no Canadians working on the Magister programs I taught.

For what it's worth, I have no direct experience with the actual formal divisions of higher education in Poland. I left before licencjat was one of the degrees, so all I can do is compare the equivalent years of study - the first 3 years in Poland and the first 3 years in Canada, as well as the senior year in Poland and Canada.

However, unlike the many visitors to Poland who have little actual experience with the educational system (I don't consider TEFL in a Polish university to be sufficient to form a reliable opinion), I have direct and personal experience on both sides of the ocean.

I did not do any junior years in the English dept where I studied in Canada (and in the US before that). I found senior years studies in the English department here pretty much a walk in the park. Some of those were extramural studies while I worked full time. I would have not been able to do the same in Poland, the sheer workload was simply too much for a lot of extracurricular activities. In some cases, I found the level of students' preparation for the university studies embarrassingly low in comparison to their Polish counterparts. Some of the student performance was so low it was breathtaking.

In a science department the story was a little different. I started in a junior year (with gobs of credits recognized from my other degrees) and the studies were harder (a completely new territory for me) but very much doable. I'm not sure I would stand a chance to even be admitted to the equivalent department in Poland. I saw the curricula in Polish IT departments and all I can say if holly sh*t, that's ambitious!!! For me perhaps it was the change in circumstances, or motivation on my part. After all, math in Poland doesn't appear to be any easier or any harder than it is in Canada.

I think I have reasons to not believe in the alleged superiority of educational systems in Canada, US, or UK over that of Poland. I met idiots in academic circles in all those countries, and I also met exceptionally great minds. A lot of this recognition of diplomas has nothing to do with the actual level of education in various countries but is rather of purely administrative nature.

As an example, there is a 4 year curriculum in Canadian colleges (something between a high school and a university, and no degrees). It is actually easier to get a job with a 4 year college diploma than with the equivalent university degree.

I have direct knowledge of Poles whose academic credentials were recognized without any issues. A Polish fella with Masters from Poland is a well respected associate prof. as is another Pole, but that one with a PhD from Poland. But I also know of Poles with Master's degrees who were considered to be below Canadian grade 12. Strangely enough, more reputable organizations and schools were are usually more open to foreign academic credentials than mom and pop shops.

As some know, I do woodworking as a hobby, so a couple years ago I wanted to enroll in a woodworking thingie in the local college. They asked me for a grade 12 diploma and a recent TOEFL! They did not care that I hold an honors degree in English Lit. from a Canadian University and that I spoke with them extensively. They still needed a proof that I spoke English.

As for the thesis as a standard requirement towards an honors degree, that's not what I observed. It is quite a bit different than it used ot be in Poland. The "thesis" here is just another full credit (two semester) course where students have some freedom in selecting a topic of their interest. This is by no means a compulsory course and many opt to select other courses of equal weight.

It appears that you know less about Polish universities than you think: Polish universities are quite happy to accept what you consider to be TEFL types as licencjat and magister supervisors. I know that for a fact because I have been both (although I was teaching more than just EFL, unsurprising really given that I was teaching on English philology courses).


There is one thing which makes the systems of Canada, the USA and UK clearly superior: extra mural courses. The idea that it is possible to do a degree part-time in exactly the same time period as doing it full-time is a disgrace. Another factor which I personally experienced but which I understand has become less of a problem in Poland in the years that I've been out of the uni system is cheating/corruption. I remember being told point blank that I could not fail one particular student despite her not submitting any of the required assessed essays and refusing to take the 'resit' exam. The fact that her father was a major investor in the private school run by my head of department might have come into play there. It's probably best if we don't go into the private university system: my ex-girlfried teaches at a couple of them and the stories she has would make your hair curl.

Harry, I did extramural in Canada, so the idea is not such a disgrace that would be unique to Poland. A lot of people with gobs of real life experience will simply challenge some courses without spending one minute in the lecture hall. I knew a guy with 15 years IT experience. He aced the entire 4 year degree in 18 months while running his business.


From what I read the problem is on the rise in the US and Canada.


This is not unique to any country. After all Bush, the G.W. one, has diplomas from both Harvard and Yale. Just a few sentences from his yapper and most would bet the man is a primary school dropout.

My uni also offered (and may still offer) extra-mural degrees: it took twice as long to do them as doing full-time studies.


Same with the UK but unis are beginning to get a handle on the internet cheating at least.


Of course it is not unique to Poland, but the scale of the problem in Poland appears to be bigger than that in the UK (I've never talked about it at length with uni people from the US or Canada).

This is a wrong statement.

Polish Licencjat is a similar level quialification to French licencié / Poutugese Licenciatura and is equivalent to the Bachelor's degree used in other countries.

Magister (Latin for Master/Teacher), a term used in Austria, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Latvia, Slovakia and France (magistères) for a higher degree qualification is equivalent to the Master's degree.

All the qualifications (with a Diploma Supplement) issued by European universities and higher education institutions accredited by national accredition bodies/ Ministry of Education who have signed the Bologna declaration, are recognised all over Europe.

Source: My wife who has a 3-years Licencjat and a 2-years Magister from a Polish University is currently enrolled in a Phd programme in a top ranked Scottish University (with full funding).

For those who do not know about Bologna Process and European Higher Education Area, please read:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_process
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Higher_Education_Area

Yet so many of them are desperately poor quality.

Many British and other European universities' qualifications are also of poor quality. I was merely trying to highlight the fact that Harry said - "Magister is pretty much the same as a good BA" is incorrect!

I used to work with a lady here who had a 2:1 from Nottingham. She was able (this was the back end of the nineties) to have it officially recognised as a Magister. Mine, which is from a better university and a decade before seemed much harder and more intense than some of the Magister degrees here. Incidentally, my university also did licentiate degrees.

And I was refering to the definition AFTER the signing of the Bologna declaration by Ministers of Education from 29 European countries (including Poland) in 1999.

At present, it is impossible for anyone with a British BA Degree to have it officially recognised as a Magister in Poland.

Do feel free to tell British universities such as LSE and Cambridge that they are wrong and you are right.


Yes, because a degree which is done in a minimum of five years of full-time post-compulsory education (an English BA) is clearly not anything like as good as a degree which can be done in five years of post-compulsory education every other weekend (a Polish Magister).

Ah... the declaration. The important thing is the Bologna process itself - when it's finished that really will be interesting.

By the way my colleagues BA was accepted as a magister after the 1999 declaration!

You must be joking! Minimum five years for an "English" BA? Read yourself first what you've typed before posting pal.

Scottish BAs last 3 years, 4 with Honours. It was that way when I studied.

My cousin in law who graduated from Wyższa Szkoła Europejska im. ks. Józefa Tischnera (not even a "university") with a Licencjat is studying his Masters in LSE now.

LSE's website says
Poland


but you will also have to know that it has higher entry requirements for other European candidates too.
Austria


Netherlands


Belgium


So only because LSE has a higher entry requirement mean that all European qualifications are worthless?

Please show me where it says (in LSE and Cambridge website) that Magister is the same as "English" BA?

Leave the "few" universities as "LSE and Cambridge" (wow!) on the side, and all other universities in Britain accepts Polish Licencjat (pre-2006) as entry qualification for Masters Degree.


Exactly. Same here. I wonder where Harry studied his FIVE years BA :)

Even an MA (Hons) is 4 years (3+1). Thereafter, courses vary in length according to PT or FT. I had the PT option of 2 years for my LLM but I decided to do it over 1 year FT.

Nothing.

I agree with you Seanus.

But MA(Hons) in 4 years is awarded by ancient universities and others who graduate from "non-ancient" universities get their BA(Hons) in 4 years (3+1) or BA (ord) in 3 years and then MA in additional 1 year FT.

True enough. The second university I studied at is ancient as it dates back to 1495. They operate the 4 year MA with Hons.

University of Aberdeen. Fit like?

well, there is a possibility, but I just got out of the system and most people would laugh in your face if you told them that. There is not way one can cheat in North American unis as one can in Polish unis. It is very strict here and if one is caught, they are in a lot of trouble, including expulsion form the studies. I personally have not heard of such case over the period of 4 years. Nobody is willing to take a risk, although I am sure that there are people who got away with it, but those are very LOW numbers.


true.


true.


well, I disagree. We are talking about the system, not about people who enter the system. Polish education is a joke in comparison to Canadian one- that has been my experience. I have been part of both. However, it also depends on the ranking of the Canadian uni a lot.

I am a Futher Edcuation (FE)/college teacher and according to National Recognition Information Centre UK (NARIC), the National Agency, managed on behalf of the UK Government and responsible for providing information, advice and on vocational, academic and professional skills and qualifications from over 180 countries worldwide, which we all use:

A Magister degree, all diciplines/grade 4 or 5 is the academic equivalent of a Bachelors Honours degree (BSC, BA) from the UK i.e. full Level 4 status. A 2:1 grade is seen as the minimum grade one should achieve.

Licencjat and Inżynier degrees are equivalent to 2 Advanced Level qualifications (A Levels, please no smut). 2 A Level qualifcations give a student Level 3 status. Generally, UK Universities require 2 A Level qualifications/Level 3 status as entry requirements to full BA degree courses/qualifications and degree level . A Levels taken as seperate subjects.

The Polish secondary school certificate (świadectwo dojrzałości) is equivalent to the UK's General Certificate(s) of Secondary Education i.e. G.C.S.Es. 5 G.C.S.Es, A to C grade are equivalent to full Level 2 status. Often, 4 to 5 G.C.S.Es at A-C grade are required as entry requirements to study A Levels.

Things change.

All this is just nonsense, trying to equate this with that. Typical of education toffs with nothing better to do with their time than to give a nice little label to compartmentalise people. Stick it! Personality and its realisation goes most of the way towards determining ones station in life. Add contacts to that and you're heading in a better direction.

Dear Phasic,

I will laugh at your comments and I agree that many others will.

Being a FE Teacher, I am surprised of how uninformed you are.