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Monthly income for family - Warsaw


juli25 5 | 22
5 Nov 2011  #1
Hi,

i would greatly appreciate your advice about my concern - my husband has got a job offer for 15K PLN/monthly brutto in Warsaw.
i'm not sure whether this amount will be sufficient for a family with 3 children? has to mention that 2 kids are in primary school and the third will require a kindergarten.

want to avoid estimation mistakes before we decide about relocation.

thanks a lot for any comments!
pawian 157 | 9,150
5 Nov 2011  #2
What kind of job is it? It is important because in some jobs you are required to show off your wealth, and people get into debts to meet the expectations, so 15 grand might not suffice.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
5 Nov 2011  #3
Yes. It would put you in the top 20%. The average wage in Poland is about 2.5 thousand and in Warsaw the average is about 4
mische 1 | 14
5 Nov 2011  #4
Average monthly income in Warsaw is about 4500 PLN/monthly brutto so 15k is way above average.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
5 Nov 2011  #5
sufficient for a family with 3 children?

A lot of Warsaw families live well on 15K. It depends on the standard of living you expect to have. Private schools and childcare can be expensive. Would the kids go to an international school with English as the teaching medium? If so, that's going to be pricey. An aquaintance of mine spends 2000 on childcare for her young twins. If the kids go to a state school, and if you have time to look after the little one, you'll be able to live pretty well on the money. Not in luxury, but well. Good luck.
postinhabitant
6 Nov 2011  #6
15k is enough as a starting point, I would go as far as to say comfortable...nothing special and definetly not struggling...the main thing is Poland and even Waw is cheap if you spend wisely
wielki pan 2 | 250
6 Nov 2011  #7
want to avoid estimation mistakes before we decide about relocation.

you may be very sorry for coming to Poland on this sort of money....think twice...people who have expensive tastes do not last long in Poland...
pip 10 | 1,661
6 Nov 2011  #8
I live in Warsaw. Two kids in primary school is a biggie. If you want your kids to go to public schools than there is no issue- we have two kids in private school and it is a huge expense. We are a bilingual family so it is important for our kids to have this education.

The American school is about 60,000 per year, the international European school is half that- there is a new school called the International school on Jagiellska- it is cheaper and has good reviews. We have friends with kids there.--it is in the south of Warsaw between Kabaty and Piaseczno.

Also- private preschool will cost about 750 pln per month (this is averaged)

So then you need to rent a place to live to accommodate 5 people. I think about 4 to 5,000 pln per month is about average- you may find better but it depends where you live- will your husbands company pay for this?

15,000 is a great salary to live on in Warsaw- however, it depends where you want to send your kids to school. If it is a public school- than you should hop on a plane but if it is a private school- than it doesn't make sense.
OP juli25 5 | 22
6 Nov 2011  #9
hi, no need to show off the status... the main concern is about children's education expenses
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
6 Nov 2011  #10
Also- private preschool will cost about 750 pln per month (this is averaged)

so for 2 kids it would be approximately 400 euros/500US dollars per month. It is not cheap but not that outrageously expensive compared with the UK or US private fees.

the main concern is about children's education expenses

I would advise that juli25 sends her children to a good local state school if the children are toddlers, after all Polish education is excellent and there is no need to send them to an international private preschool.

Just get an English or American au pair (usually they are students) or an English speaking nanny, to supplement for English language exposure.

You should be able to get a nice and big apartment.
PWEI 3 | 612
6 Nov 2011  #11
you may be very sorry for coming to Poland on this sort of money....think twice...people who have expensive tastes do not last long in Poland...

a) You know nothing about Poland and things Polish. Have you even been here?
b) The original poster said nothing at all about her tastes, expensive or otherwise. Clearly you are jealous that some people make money which you can only dream of.
pip 10 | 1,661
6 Nov 2011  #12
hi, no need to show off the status... the main concern is about children's education expenses

this is our issue also. the preschool is not a big deal but the children in primary school you will be paying more.

There is a Canadian school- I don't know much about it- the fees are 2600 per month each child.

The International European schools fees are 30,000 per year, each child.

The American school is about 60,000 per year, each child and the British school is quite comparable.

There is an international American school- don't know anything about it.
There is also a French language school and a German school.

I have heard that there are a few good public schools in Warsaw- sorry I can't help there, I have no idea where they are---maybe somebody on the board knows?

maybe this will help: poland good for expat/en/warsaw/school/international-schools.

szkolamiedzynarodowa.pl this school is quite interesting. Most of the foreign teachers seem to be from Canada and trained at great universities- the tuition is cheaper but still 20,000 pln per year each child is pretty steep. We have friends with kids here and they love it.

"I would advise that juli25 sends her children to a good local state school if the children are toddlers, after all Polish education is excellent and there is no need to send them to an international private preschool.

Just get an English or American au pair (usually they are students) or an English speaking nanny, to supplement for English language exposure."

by this post I am assuming you don't have kids. Am I right?
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
6 Nov 2011  #13
The American school is about 60,000 per year

Ridiculous fees which i assume are only for American expats living in their American bubble and paid by their companies in their expat packages otherwise that school would never ever have any pupil, i bet.

When you think about the millions about people traveling the world and moving countries with their families only a small percentage would not take the opportunity to send their children to local schools if they find some good ones and only a small percentage could afford to spend such amounts of money on a 10 years old.

Especially for primary schools kids can adapt quickly and benefit from a true language and cultural immersion.

This applies for China, Argentina, Uk, France, Germany Poland, pretty much everywhere where education is good, don't you think?
Having said that i think it is just a question of finding out if it is worth sending kids to expensive private schools in a Europe when they are under or 10 years old.
PWEI 3 | 612
6 Nov 2011  #14
Ridiculous fees which i assume are only for American expats living in their American bubble and paid by their companies in their expat packages otherwise that school would never ever have any pupil, i bet.

You would lose that bet on both counts.
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
6 Nov 2011  #15
60 000 zl X 3 children :180 000 zl per year.
Pwei find me a family on 15 000 zl a month sending their children under 10 with their own money at the American school in Poland and I will have lost my bet...
PWEI 3 | 612
6 Nov 2011  #16
You are now changing your bet. My boss has two kids at the American school (and a salary of rather more than 150,000zl).
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
6 Nov 2011  #17
So what percentage of his year salary is your boss spending at the American school for his 2 kids ? 30 %, 50 % ?

I mean I would understand families making big sacrifices to sending their teenage kids to the MIT or Harvard or the London School of Economics or anu college with a reputation of excellence in its field by the American school in Warsaw, give me a break.

What do the kids learn or do for this price ?
pip 10 | 1,661
6 Nov 2011  #18
The American school is filled with majority Polish children- also known as the pathetic nouveau riche who blatantly parade their money. There are also loads of Scandinavians and a good number of Americans, Canadians, Brits and other expats.

Have you seen this school? It is massive. From kindergarten to grade 12. And they are building an addition at the moment. They have a theatre, swimming pool, massive library and gym and a full functioning cafeteria.

I disagree that Poland has a good school system- particularly for foreigners. I would without hesitation send my kids to any public school in France, Germany, Uk, Switzerland- not in Poland. Unfortunately, the system is below parr.

"What do the kids learn or do for this price ?" the Polish parents have bragging rights. This is pretty much it. Actually, it has good teachers from all over the world- I don't think the American system is great- but the school is good compared to the public schools here.
PWEI 3 | 612
6 Nov 2011  #19
So what percentage of his year salary is your boss spending at the American school for his 2 kids ? 30 %, 50 % ?

I don't know. But I'd be sure that it's less than the figures you give.

From memory the students at ASW are 20% American, 20% Polish and the rest from the remaining 50-odd countries represented there.
pip 10 | 1,661
6 Nov 2011  #20
I believe it has changed to majority Polish now.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
6 Nov 2011  #21
I disagree that Poland has a good school system- particularly for foreigners.

It depends - good schools in Poland are very much able to attract the best - for instance, in Poznan, the 1st high school is well known for producing doctors/lawyers/etc, and it's very much the kind of place where your father and your grandfather went to as well.

But for foreigners, the public school system is very poorly equipped. It'll be fine for kids who aren't yet in school (they'll learn very quickly) - but anyone trying to send a kid older than 9 years old into the public system with no knowledge of Polish is going to struggle massively. Same story in many other countries - France for instance will do nothing to integrate children.

I would without hesitation send my kids to any public school in France, Germany, Uk, Switzerland- not in Poland. Unfortunately, the system is below parr.

The public schooling system in the UK and France can be much worse than the worst school in Poland - for instance, when was the last time you heard of anyone bringing a knife or other weapon to a school in Poland? Bullying also isn't that much of an issue in Poland compared to other countries - France in particular has massive problems with it, often covered up.

"What do the kids learn or do for this price ?" the Polish parents have bragging rights.

That's what it's all about, really.

I'd say the real problem in Poland is that there's a two tier system - good schools will have very good teachers and very high standards, but bad schools will have some truly terrible teachers. It's not like the UK where good teachers will stay in bad schools.
OP juli25 5 | 22
6 Nov 2011  #22
thanks to all for so many comments, i'm starting to learn...

I have heard that there are a few good public schools in Warsaw- sorry I can't help there, I have no idea where they are---maybe somebody on the board knows?

so I understand that I have to start looking for good public school, if looking realistically on the numbers...private schools we won't be able to cover

I would not mind them starting to learn in the public school, but they have "zero"-knowledge of Polish, and I'm afraid that even though they are young and learn quickly, it might be shocking experience to start from the scratch in unfamiliar environment.

Is there any special support for foreign children when it comes to Polish language studies?
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
6 Nov 2011  #23
but the school is good compared to the public schools here.

I should hope so given what they charge.

And indeed Pip if the American School in Warsaw has great equipment it does explain its success with families who might have the impression they are sending their children to a Club Med vacation resort however i am extremely skeptical in the superiority of its curriculum because i know loads of Polish doctors, journalists entrepreneurs, professors you name it who are extremely bright and who were educated in Polish local schools and never attended fancy international schools although they speak fluently at least 2 languages .

Some of them won the Fulbright scholarship and believe me ,they were far from attending schools in Poland which had the American school' facilities or equipment.

What i would say to July25 regarding her kids education is to ask around about good local schools in Warsaw and if there is a problem they could always switch to a private school , right?
PWEI 3 | 612
6 Nov 2011  #24
Is there any special support for foreign children when it comes to Polish language studies?

As far as I know there is absolutely none at all.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
6 Nov 2011  #25
Is there any special support for foreign children when it comes to Polish language studies?

None - they'll be treated as a Polish child would be treated, except possibly without the threat of being sent to a special school (like what happens to Roma children).

however i am extremely skeptical in the superiority of its curriculum

It could very well be poorer - private schools in Poland don't have the same rigorous academic standards as their counterparts in the UK or USA.
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
6 Nov 2011  #26
I would not mind them starting to learn in the public school, but they have "zero"-knowledge of Polish, and I'm afraid that even though they are young and learn quickly, it might be shocking experience to start from the scratch in unfamiliar environment.

July25 Do not worry about that, your children will be fine.

Do you think Polish, Hispanic children, Chinese children Japanese children etc all attend Polish Chinese Japanese schools when their parents move to the UK or the US ? Do you think they all speak English when they arrive?

If you explain to your children that "in Poland live like the Poles" is part of their international experience they will be ok after a couple of months.

The quality of a a public shool in Warsaw should work with the location, if your pick up an up market neighbourghood the local schools should be good.

This pretty much works all over the planet, if I were to move to London and live in Belgravia or Kensington ,there is no doubt that the local public shool will be safe and of good standards.
pip 10 | 1,661
6 Nov 2011  #27
July25 Do not worry about that, your children will be fine.

no, sorry- they will not be fine. I am not arguing language here. Being thrown into a new school where the language is foreign and the majority of the students don't speak English- and then there are the cultural differences - this is a recipe for disaster and she is right. she knows her children and they probably would be shocked.

My kids don't go to the American school. They don't need to as they are completely bilingual and working on French.- we are not American and I don't need the bragging rights. But throwing kids into a public school system where the methods of teaching are completely different, the language is different and the culture- sorry, but I wouldn't recommend it anybody unless they were planning on immigrating here.

--Do you think Polish, Hispanic children, Chinese children Japanese children etc all attend Polish Chinese Japanese schools when their parents move to the UK or the US ? Do you think they all speak English when they arrive?

If you explain to your children that "in Poland live like the Poles" is part of their international experience they will be ok after a couple of months.---

seriously? Now it is crystal clear that you don't have kids.

Poland is new to the whole immigrant thing- the uk and us are not and they are able to accommodate the amount of non English speaking people. Poland simply does not have the same level of assistance for those coming here without language skills.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,664
6 Nov 2011  #28
Do you think Polish, Hispanic children, Chinese children Japanese children etc all attend Polish Chinese Japanese schools when their parents move to the UK or the US ?

no, that's quite a silly question. I think there are dedicated teachers and assistants in every UKstate school, as many as are needed, who specialise in English as a second language and learning support. One primary school my children attended had 160 languages represented.

In monocultural, monolingual countries not geared up for immmigration, it just wouldn't work.
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
6 Nov 2011  #29
Pip How do you know about that if you have not sent your own children to a local public school ?

I mean for most people having to send their children to public schools when they move abroad there is no dilemma of choice and their children do adapt .

What would be interesting is to hear someone who sent her/his children to a Polish school and whose children had a good or bad experience.

Children are not adults but they are not made of fragile glass either ,they play together sing together , they do get traumatised if people are nasty to them but not because there are in a totally different cultural or linguistic environment.

I mean refusing to go to Poland because you can't afford to send your children to some expensive private school would be silly.
pip 10 | 1,661
6 Nov 2011  #30
to some extent yes. but then again, some children will adapt better than others. Ultimately, she knows her children- If I was moving to Sweden for three years I would have no problem sending my kids to the public school. They would learn the language super fast and the system is set up to help people with Swedish as a second language. The fact is- Poland is not. You speak Polish or you pay for school. English speaking children will be treated better than Roma, for example- but not only that. How does July25 communicate with her teachers if she herself doesn't speak Polish? It is not as cut and dry as you are making it out to be.


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