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REFUSED A HOLIDAY VISA TO THE U.S CAUSE IM POLISH


convex 20 | 3,928
9 Feb 2010 #241
Well, I have no reason to disbelieve you, Convex. You sound like a sensible man,
but what you're saying is very surprising to me. We managed to do our own engineering
and aircraft operations ourselves for years before 1989 and now we're suddenly out of
specialist? That's disturbing.

That's it exactly. Basically you have old timers that are stuck in their ways and no young people to take over. What I would really really like to see here is a system like the one in place in Germany. A strong mentorship program instead of just an emphasis on university education. Practical knowledge is what the Polish labor market needs, and unfortunately the focus is still very much on universities.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,131
9 Feb 2010 #242
Same thing goes for an operations manager for an aircraft charter operation, there just isn't anyone here that can fill the role.

I'd love to do such a job, but alas...

That is a huge, huge problem in upper management.

Definitely. Part of the problem has to be the culture of refusing to accept responsibility - when Poles realise that they have to take responsibility for their own actions, then things will improve. I notice that in Poland, the IT sector seems to have it figured out, but others don't. And in fact, many of the worst examples can be found in foreign owned companies.

Practical knowledge is what the Polish labor market needs, and unfortunately the focus is still very much on universities.

They could take a strong step in this direction by simply abolishing free Masters degrees and completely scrapping the 2nd/3rd/4th free degree. I know someone doing a dual masters in Sociology and English - what good is this?
matteroftaste
9 Feb 2010 #243
I worked in Ireland the Irish used to take me for an American
and were very surprised to hear that I'm Polish - so I guess my teachers did a good
job :-)

maybe your teachers did a great job but I still believe that Irish people were just trying to be friendly when they said it.
Torq
10 Feb 2010 #244
I still believe that Irish people were just trying to be friendly when they said it.

Oh, maybe - they are a friendly bunch, all right. I wouldn't mind if more Irish
settled in Poland. Great people.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
10 Feb 2010 #245
In all fairness, I don't believe that there is any kind of job that these people might
be doing that couldn't have been done equally well by a Pole

truly a ridiculous statement. are you trying to tell me that a country that was COMMUNIST 20 years ago has today enough experienced businessmen/businesswomen that bringing in British, French, American people to take high positions in companies is all......"Poland's inferiority complex"? Really? It's all for no reason? They don't have something the Poles lack....whatsoever? Stop it. I refuse to elaborate further on why this is true because it will only result in flaming from the "overly sensitive side".

but this is a good start:

American management tends to have a lot more exposure to the global environment than their Polish counterparts, that will change with time of course, but don't hold your breath. The global experience just isn't here yet. I haven't once met a Pole in a management position in North America or Asia. Germans, French, Island Monkeys, Swiss, Scandinavians, but very few Central/Eastern Europeans.

Delphiandomine wrote:

I know two that are genuinely convincing

You're not a native speaker, therefore, your opinion doesn't count. As a native speaker of English, I've never met a single Pole that even comes close to a native. Even Polish English teachers....the best the school has to offer.....they simply can't compare.

the only real advantage that natives have is that they can teach virtually any topic without much preparation, whereas a Polish teacher is likely to have to put in some serious effort to pick up a new topic.

uuuuhhhmmmm......so what you're saying is that a native knows the language thoroughly, natively as a matter of fact, and when they are given a job to do, they already know how to do it.......but a Polish English teacher needs to put in "serious effort" to pick up a new topic.......geeze.....and you call that "the only real advantage"? You sure grouped a lot of things into "the only advantage" don't you think?
Torq
10 Feb 2010 #246
As a native speaker of English, I've never met a single Pole that even comes close to a native. Even Polish English teachers....the best the school has to offer.....they simply can't compare.

But this is true about any non-native teacher of any language. You can't really achieve
basic fluency (not to mention native fluency) by learning a language at school (even if
your teachers are native speakers - I know that from my own experience).

Especially that many of the English native speakers (at least the ones that taught me
and my friends) are incompetent when it comes to teaching phonetics and phonology.
If there is, for instance, a sound in English that doesn't have Polish equivalent then it's
not enough to just speak it to students, because they will either hear something different
or be unable to imitate the sound - you have to explain exactly how to articulate the sound
(what happens to the lips, tongue and mouth cavity when pronouncing it etc. etc.).
None of the native English teachers that I met was able to do that as opposed to one
Russian teacher that I had (she spoke beautiful RP English - completely indistinguishable
from that of educated native English speakers).

If the quality of native English language techers that we get in Poland was higher
then I might agree that it is advantageous to have them. However, too many of
them are completely accidental teachers and most of them are grossly overpaid.

When you achieve something like B2 (FCE level) then you get more fluent by
watching movies, listening to the radio shows or going to an English speaking
country for some time. The language is pi*ss easy and even if we didn't have
any native speakers in Poland we'd still be able to learn it (if a simple engineer
like me could get the Cambridge Cerificate of Proficiency in English without
much effort then I guess anyone else can learn enough English to get by).
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
10 Feb 2010 #247
But this is true about any non-native teacher of any language.

never said it was any different for other languages, just commenting on a previous comment.

The language is pi*ss easy and even if we didn't have
any native speakers in Poland we'd still be able to learn it (if a simple engineer
like me could get the Cambridge Cerificate of Proficiency in English without
much effort then I guess anyone else can learn enough English to get by).

tell that to some of my students. i will never understand how someone can take lessons for years, constantly hear english in the media most especially in their face on TV every day, yet they still can't form decent sentences in English. When I consider how far I've gotten in Polish through hard work and sweat and also considering there is basically nothing as far as Polish learning materials compared to English, it amazes me how bad people speak English after years of study. amazes me. Learning Polish is like slamming your head against the wall and I am approaching intermediate level with it......not being able to speak English at an intermediate level results from nothing else but pure laziness. As for Poles specifically, not knowing English is pure stupidity. Once you leave your country, you flat out cannot communicate. How can someone live like that. Pure isolationism, and it's more common in Poland than most of you are willing to admit.

Wait......hmmm....maybe I just listed a reason for having "foreign businessmen/businesswomen" in Poland........?.........give me time, maybe they'll start trickling in......
mafketis 37 | 10,906
10 Feb 2010 #248
When I consider how far I've gotten in Polish through hard work and sweat and also considering there is basically nothing as far as Polish learning materials compared to English, it amazes me how bad people speak English after years of study. amazes me.

Well, English starts easy then gets really hard and the longer you study it, the harder it gets (kind of the opposite of Polish which starts hard, gets harder and then gets a lot easier, you're probably not at that stage yet). No language is 'easy' and in the case of English early ease is more than paid for by later failure to master.

Collocations are a lot harder (more irregular) in English than in Polish and so is almost any kind of embedding (putting one sentence inside another). There's more, but that's a start.

And, since proper intonationn (which is difficult) and the distinction between count and non-count nouns are mostly not part of early instruction (which would make early instruction a lot more difficult). It's almost impossible for more advanced learners to actually .... learn them well.

There's also the little fact that many who take English classes just aren't into it as a language (generally unhelpful for longterm learning). Actually those who take German or Russian (not to mention Italian, or French or Spanish) are more likely to be genuinely interested in those languages and do well in them (compared to the indifferent results of most English learning).

And most English learning materials (unlike materials for German, French etc) are not meant to substantively help students learn English. The random hodge podge of hard to assimilate usage and McLessons are meant to satisfy English course requirements and (give the illusion of learning while keeping the students as ignorant as possible for as long as possible so they'll still keep paying for classes).
matteroftaste
10 Feb 2010 #249
I wouldn't mind if more Irish
settled in Poland

yes they are. Huge amount of Irish are now Americans :-)
RevokeNice 15 | 1,854
26 Feb 2010 #250
WOULD GETTING AN IRISH PASS PORT HELP? IF SO HOW DO I GO ABOUT THAT

Are you for real?
convex 20 | 3,928
26 Feb 2010 #251
WOULD GETTING AN IRISH PASS PORT HELP? IF SO HOW DO I GO ABOUT THAT

Step 1. Join the Mossad
Step 2. Pick up your passport in Tel Aviv
delphiandomine 88 | 18,131
26 Feb 2010 #252
and in the case of English early ease is more than paid for by later failure to master.

This is very very true - I've lost count of the amount of intermediate students who simply cannot get over the next hurdle. From today - the word "come". Look at how many ways this can be used - it's no surprise that many learners struggle to gain real fluency and get stuck at the intermediate level.

it amazes me how bad people speak English after years of study.

To be honest, this sentence shows that even natives get English wrong - and quite badly wrong, at that. I'm struggling to see how you can criticise English when you can't even use your own language properly. And you claim to be a teacher? Oh dear...

Especially that many of the English native speakers (at least the ones that taught me and my friends) are incompetent when it comes to teaching phonetics and phonology

No, you're right. The vast majority are absolutely unable to teach the language on any technical level. They might know the grammar (or might not : see above) - but they're absolutely unlikely to have any knowledge of the more technical aspects of English.

None of the native English teachers that I met was able to do that as opposed to one Russian teacher that I had (she spoke beautiful RP English - completely indistinguishable from that of educated native English speakers).

I know someone like this - she has the most beautiful RP accent too. She's a pleasure to talk to - and I suspect dear old Fuzzy here simply doesn't have any educated friends.

so what you're saying is that a native knows the language thoroughly, natively as a matter of fact, and when they are given a job to do, they already know how to do it

Not necessarily, because the native is highly unlikely to be able to teach any technical aspects of the language. They might be able to teach vocabulary about renovating a house or building a zoo, but they're highly unlikely to have much of a clue about the technical aspects of their own language.

I've heard the same "natives are better period" argument many times - and the vast majority of those are the ones who are simply trying to protect the goose that laid the golden egg. Of course they're going to pick fault with Polish teachers - why would anyone pay them a vast amount if the Polish teachers are equally capable?

As a native speaker of English, I've never met a single Pole that even comes close to a native.

Let's be honest, it's in your interest to propagate this myth, because it makes it seem like only natives can teach - and this is quite frankly nonsense. How many native speakers are there in Finland teaching English? Barely any. Yet Finland (and the rest of the Nordic countries) are considered to be excellent at English - which proves the point that native teachers are just a luxury and aren't actually needed.

Already in Poland, we're seeing that teachers like Seanus with real education behind him are highly desirable. But some college graduate in a soft subject, combined with CELTA, isn't particularly desirable and certainly not worth the high salaries that some schools pay.
Lindsay
19 Mar 2010 #253
my partner and I was refused yesturday for a holiday Visa , allthough I have been 8 times myself and never overstayed once in the last 20 years, we have been traverling the word for the past year so we have not works, we showed that we have 80,000.00 us dollars in the bank my partner is from Chile and Im Australian....Rufesed for haveing a good life...quote from fat ulgy immi american slag who is paid $3 dollars an hour... your life is not real you are a danger to the USA...go to hell ***** the danger to you fat aress is Mac Ds so up size and stick your inbread country up your arss...ok had my say...and people if you have been you know its not all they think it is...so travel the rest off the world where it's not AMERICAN....
sledz 23 | 2,248
19 Mar 2010 #254
american slag who is paid $3 dollars an hour..

Its sounds like we need to give that guy a raise!!!!!!!!!

Good Job A+

Too bad every word you said is nothing but a lie,,,,now go play along ugly troll!!!
krysia 23 | 3,058
20 Mar 2010 #255
Im Australian

If you're Australian how come you write such bad english?
''yesturday'' ''allthough'' ''traverling'' ''we have not works'', ''Rufesed'' ''haveing'' ''inbread'' ''so travel the rest off the world''
f&&&visas
10 Dec 2010 #256
My opinion is, If you can afford to go on holiday to the United States, then you should be granted the Visa because you must have been working, have money in the bank, a lot of money, which covers your expenses and keeps you going when you return.

If you really haven't got a good job, some ties like kids and house, there's a chance you might just be refused and to me, anyone who is so desperate to go, who doesn't live well back home, is an intending immigrant.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
10 Dec 2010 #257
@f&&&visas

what is all this money you speak of? A plane ticket using LOT from Warsaw to the USA can be bought for under 2000zl. anybody can save up 2000zl. hell, even if it takes them a year or two to do it, they can save it up and get themselves to the USA.

anyone who is so desperate to go, who doesn't live well back home, is an intending immigrant.

could you elaborate more on this? i don't think i know what you are trying to say.
Piotr123 3 | 54
10 Dec 2010 #258
It is always useful to have several passports issued by different countries. Polish passports do not provide any other benefits than those of other member states of the European Union. In general the same visa requirements apply to Polish passports as for other member states of the European Union. The only exception is the United States where Polish citizens require a visa to enter the country.

For a second or third passport many countries in South America offer a relatively easy way for foreigners to gain citizenship. Some countries in the Caribbean offer similar opportunities. In South America I can recommend Brazil even if Brazilian citizens require a visa to enter the United States. I do not believe it to be a great disadvantage though as the United States is past it's time. There are so many other countries which are much better choices to immigrate to.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
10 Dec 2010 #259
Piotr123 wrote:

There are so many other countries which are much better choices to immigrate to.

not arguing it, just asking.......like where? could you provide some examples of countries that are better to immigrate to than the USA?
convex 20 | 3,928
10 Dec 2010 #260
If you want to start a business, Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, New Zealand. If you want a strong social net (not worry about education, health care, etc), the Nordic countries. If you want to earn a decent salary, Switzerland, Germany, Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar, Norway...

Why is the hypothetical migrant moving?
Piotr123 3 | 54
10 Dec 2010 #261
According to Gallup the countries that most people want to immigrate to are Singapore, New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Switzerland, Australia and Kuwait. Sweden is number one in the European Union. Does this list represent the best countries to immigrate to? Hardly in my opinion.

The most important factor to weigh in is the migrant himself, so it would entirely depend upon you which country would suit you best. The United States has fallen low on the list of countries which people want to immigrate to. According to the World Bank the best country for business is Singapore.

In UBS annual survey of global prices and earnings the global purchasing power is higher in both Zurich, Copenhagen and Geneva than in Oslo. Berlin is quite far down on the list. In terms of domestic purchasing power Oslo is even below Vienna!

All the countries of the Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf have high salaries if you have a good job, but many blue collar workers in Dubai bitterly regret that they ever came there.

For retirement destinations I would turn to the annual global retirement index by International Living. Of course salaries are not everything and therefore quality of life is a better indicator.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
10 Dec 2010 #262
Piotr123 wrote:

Of course salaries are not everything and therefore quality of life is a better indicator.

and economics/salaries is all you have really talked about.

take any country in the middle east. most women would not want to live/work there for obvious reasons.

regarding all Scandanavian countries, you have to like long, brutal winters along with the sunlight issues.

Singapore seems like a good option but i've never been there. everyone i know who has visited Singapore really liked it. also they have basically year round summer weather which is a big plus for me but it also rains on avg. 177 days per year.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
10 Dec 2010 #263
Of course salaries are not everything and therefore quality of life is a better indicator.

One should consider the demographics of their destination foremost. Who cares what salaries are if you're amid a culture which you don't like?
Piotr123 3 | 54
11 Dec 2010 #265
Many countries which would be good a choices to immigrate are not a viable option because of harsh immigration laws. Compared to other Asian countries Singapore does not have harsh immigration laws, but it is still hard to immigrate there if you do not fulfill certain criteria.

Everyone who are granted a residence permit in Singapore will be drafted into military recruit training. The penalty for refusing military service is extremely harsh. In addition to this all citizens and residence permit holders are required to undergo re-training every year to remain combat ready.

The Asian culture also offers quite a culture shock for many Europeans. I know of many Europeans who have lived there for over 20 years and they claim it still is as if they just arrived. My observation is that the adjustment is hardest for Americans and Brits.

Yes, the Middle East is not a good choice for western woman to immigrate to. Oman and Kuwait are probably the most dangerous of the GCC countries for woman.

If immigrants are to make a new life in a country it is important that the immigration laws in that country are friendly towards immigration.

In Sweden no people starve but life is hard because of the climate, isolation and jobs are scarce, especially for youth because of the highest youth unemployment rate in the EU.

The lack of apartments is so extreme that one has to wait several years in line to get a first hand contract to rent an apartment in a ghetto in the suburbs of Stockholm! The average wait for a first hand contract in central Stockholm is 20 years.

Swedish people are also very timid and cold, so it is really hard to get to know anyone on any deeper level.

The immigration from Africa and the Middle East has spun out of control and Sweden has the second highest number of reported rapes in the world after Lesotho in Africa. In 2009 Sweden had the third highest rate of violent crime in the EU.

Polish construction workers that come to Sweden can usually find a job. The salary can be good if they manage to avoid paying tax. Sweden claims to be one of the least racist countries in the world, but it is in fact a very racist country towards non-white people.

The reason the Swedish economy was so little affected by the economic crisis is because the government saved in on everything! Social benefits, schools, hospitals and so on. Sweden was very badly prepared for the huge wave of mass immigration.

Many people are afraid right now that the housing bubble here will burst. Sweden was one of few countries in the world where the real estate prices went up during the economic crisis! The Swedish people have the largest housing debt in the world.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
11 Dec 2010 #266
Sweden has the second highest number of reported rapes in the world after Lesotho in Africa.

Wow. Gotta love all that "rich diversity". :s
Patrycja19 62 | 2,688
11 Dec 2010 #267
So now he's always applying for a working visa, since holiday visa for Poles means sh*t to Americans.

why dont you say means shyt to the govt officials or embassy officials that dish them out?

why cant people stop blaming the fricken public? get it right or dont say it at all
I personally welcome people to come over and visit their familys and friends.

dont include us all when its select few who have control over this situation. and you know
this.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
13 Dec 2010 #268
Piotr123 wrote:

Many countries which would be good a choices to immigrate are not a viable option...

so i guess that brings me back to my original question. what countries are better to immigrate to than the USA? you made a general statement that there are many, so make some general statements as to which ones.
Ironside 53 | 12,420
14 Dec 2010 #269
what countries are better to immigrate to than the USA?

Australia, Canada and New Zealand !
sovereign_man - | 19
15 Dec 2010 #270
Say, why not just fly to Mexico City and simply drive, walk or swim across the border? Really, who needs a visa to enter the US anymore? ;)

Good luck with that, you are lible to get shot and killed by some mexican drug cartels.

The suggestion of going to Canada and meeting your family by NY is a better idea as Canadians are pretty relaxed people from what I understand.


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