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Polonia who needs help with Polish Documentary


sakowicz50 1 | 6
21 Feb 2012  #1
A great welcome to everyone!

I am a Polonia living in the United States. My heart is forever in my Polish homeland and I am very interested in Polish history, customs, food, women, and politics. I joined PF because I go to Poland every year and I only see a very shallow view of the country as a mere tourist. I want to have a much more directed view at certain aspects of Poland and Polish life. To be specific, I need help with a documentary concerning Polish football hooliganism from many different aspects. To my knowledge there have been no full-length documentaries about this very large topic in Poland and Europe. I want to find out more about the hooligan groups, their roots, their history, the people involved, and how many extremist ideologies seem to tie in with it all.

As I am growing up I feel I need to learn more about a country that his been buried by historians despite having a very intricate and amazing history, I like to film and write so it is a good use of my talents and time.

Sorry about being all over the place, it's just that there is so much I want to learn and I don't know the best initial approach to it all. Can anyone direct me to resources about Polish football hooliganism or give personal experiences or opinions about the phenomenon?

I can read Polish to a certain degree, so as long as the Polish resources are not TL;DR I think they would be okay.

Thank you in advance for your help; may the almighty lord give us strength in the war against ignorance and injustice!
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
21 Feb 2012  #2
To my knowledge there have been no full-length documentaries about this very large topic in Poland and Europe.

G'day Sakowicz, and welcome. Are you familiar at all with Ross Kemp's documentary series on gangs? He did one a while back on Polish neo nazi gangs, and there was a large element of football hooliganism there. Best of luck mate!

there is so much I want to learn and I don't know the best initial approach to it all.

Start with Norman Davies' work God's Playground, and go from there.
OP sakowicz50 1 | 6
21 Feb 2012  #3
I do have some of Davies' works and I was planning on buying God's Playground. I will also be sure to find this Ross Kemp documentary, thank you.
Harry
21 Feb 2012  #4
For general modern history of Poland, Timothy Garton-Ash takes some beating.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
21 Feb 2012  #5
To be specific, I need help with a documentary concerning Polish football hooliganism from many different aspects.

Hello! Here's a link to a BBC documentary, one of a series on gangs around the world. This episode was on Polish football hooligan gangs. It's from 2006 but worth watching:

For general modern history of Poland, Timothy Garton-Ash takes some beating.

And here's a link to all his media writings, not just on Poland.

Good Luck!
OP sakowicz50 1 | 6
22 Feb 2012  #6
I know of one person involved in Hooliganry, he can help me have some way to enter the whole ordeal. The only problem is that I can only visit around june/july, do hooligans engage in any activity post-season?
Alligator - | 261
22 Feb 2012  #7
They do it all year long. There are "ustawki", when the opposing hooligan football fans choose a time and place for a "meeting". They beat the hell out of opposing "team". There is general rule that during ustawka you can't use weapons, only fists.
inkrakow 1 | 98
22 Feb 2012  #8
documentary concerning Polish football hooliganism from many different aspects.

WTF? Hooliganism is hardly a large topic in Poland and Europe. And it's definitely not the most interesting thing about Poland right now! Why don't you choose a more interesting, less inflammatory subject if, as you say, "

My heart is forever in my Polish homeland

?
jasondmzk
22 Feb 2012  #9
do hooligans engage in any activity post-season?

So, you just want to document them "in flagrante delicto"? What's the point? I mean, what's the point of your "documentary"?
Alligator - | 261
22 Feb 2012  #10
it's definitely not the most interesting thing about Poland right now!

Yes it is. We have Euro in 2012 remember that? It's not unusual that football hooligans are in spotlight right now.

Hooliganism is hardly a large topic in Poland and Europe.

That is not exactly true, isn't it? Ever been on football match in Poland?
Another thing. It is funny that your nick is "inkrakow" and in the same city you have Wisła Kraków and Cracovia. This clubs fans hate eachother so much that it is a regular war everytime their teams play. This war is hardly unnoticed and started in 80s. Since last year, since murder of Cracovia hooligan fans leader ("Anty Wisła") another bloody war started. They are using knives, machetes and every avaiable for them weapon. This is no longer simply fist fight, they are killing each other.

Where are you hiding then if didn't noticed THAT?!
Kraków is hardcore case, but that sort of thing happends fairly often.
I have been on a match between Wisła Kraków and Korona Kielce. After that match Korona fan was killed by Wisła hooligan. This poor guy wasn't even hooligan, he simply came to watch match and after that he was killed simply because he had Korona T-shirt.

Don't try to make these hooligans seem not dangerous, they are. I believae that police during EURO 2012 will do their job and protect fans from these animals. They experience baptism of fire fairly often, they will be prepared.
OP sakowicz50 1 | 6
22 Feb 2012  #11
So, you just want to document them "in flagrante delicto"?

No, I just need to have a way to meet with the rest of his "ekipa" so I can talk with them, find more about what they do, why they engage in hooliganism, and what their customs/beliefs are. 50% chance is that the documentary will be a complete faliure, It's worth a try if anything.
xzqbq7 2 | 104
22 Feb 2012  #12
Another provocateur working hard to diminish the image of Poland. Who pays you? Never mind I know.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur
polishmama 3 | 279
22 Feb 2012  #13
sakowicz50: My heart is forever in my Polish homeland?

I agree wholeheartedly. My spider sense is telling me someone has a different agenda other than their heart loving Poland. Esp since he said he "isa Polonia". Nobody says that.
Alligator - | 261
22 Feb 2012  #14
I don't get why you are getting so worked up by his project, unless you are hooligan fans;)
You haven't even seen his documentary and you don't know what is his take on this problem.
Hooligans are also a part of Polish society and a part of reality in Poland. You can't really say anything positive about them, but since when documentaries are made to satisfy everybody with stories from Fairyland. Mayby it's wishfull thinking but I would like to see in that documentary not only hooligans beating each other and devastating public property, but also explanation why are they becoming hooligans?, what social, economic etc. reasons make them like that? what our authorities doing with this problem? Are there somewhere in the world (or in Poland) any success stories about stopping hooligans and making them useful to society?

This site is not a product placement site where posters should write only positives about Poland to sell the only right (positive) view on Poland and Polish people. There are negatives, as everywhere in the world.

I have some issues with posters who lie about Poland on this site, but I don't have any with those who want to learn about Poland and maybe teach me something I already don't know.

Lets criticize after we see his movie, shall we?
OP sakowicz50 1 | 6
23 Feb 2012  #15
You guys not knowing about who I am is the likely reason why you are so scared of me. Fear springing from ignorance, as RWE said. Let me further introduce myself.

My pseudonym is Alan Katanski. My family has had many experiences with real provocateurs and agents throughout the communist era and I can assure you that I'm not one.

One story from my grandpa was that the AK was heavily persecuted after the war by the PRL but somehow a FULLY UNIFORMED AK group stopped his train and asked the Jews on the train to come with them to the woods. The Jews were not killed or even harmed but the remaining Jews on the train were still scared. My father was detained and beaten for literally no reason by PRL police in the 70s as well.

I am Polish, my family studies its genealogy very well and everyone born before me was born in Poland -- I do have some viking roots though ;). My grandpa was a Syberiak

taken from his home in Lithuania, part of the commonwealth, when he was around 3 and deported to Siberia. The home is now unfortunately gone along with the medals and Golden Szabla my great-grandfather received as a cossack during WWI (my great-grandmother threw it down a well so at least the communist pigs couldn't get it.)

Another provocateur working hard to diminish the image of Poland. Who pays you? Never mind I know.

Nobody pays me to post here. That's the problem -- let me STRICTLY STATE first that my purpose coming here was not to beg for money -- all my expenses for this documentary will come out of pocket. I have no camera, memory cards, money for plane tickets, publisher or editing software (I can take care of the software aspects). What I do have are people I can talk to here, people I know within the Polish hooligan scene, and basic knowledge about filming and editing a documentary film.
a.k.
23 Feb 2012  #16
sakowicz50

You have no bad intentions? Yeah, sure! You want to do a documentary (or maybe a reportage) about Polish hooliganism just before Euro championships? That's suspiscious. Why to reinforce bad sterotypes by such documentaries if your "heart is forever in Polish homeland"? Why not to make a documentary about something positive, instead of criminals?

Alligator

Don't be naive. Don't you know that lazy newspaper journalists do research and look for contacts for their articles also on sites like this one?

but since when documentaries are made to satisfy everybody with stories from Fairyland.

It's some element of a society (not only Polish) but when it's made a journalism object there is a risk that it might become a landmark for a country...

Mayby it's wishfull thinking but I would like to see in that documentary not only hooligans beating each other and devastating public property, but also explanation why are they becoming hooligans?

The reason if obvious. Do you really don't know why?

I have some issues with posters who lie about Poland on this site, but I don't have any with those who want to learn about Poland and maybe teach me something I already don't know.

There is enough of trolls on this site already.

maybe teach me something I already don't know.

Teach you? I thought you are Polish...

Lets criticize after we see his movie, shall we?

No. The reason below:

My pseudonym is Alan Katanski.

No search engine matches for your pseudonym.
Alligator - | 261
23 Feb 2012  #17
Teach you? I thought you are Polish...

That doesn't make me an expert in every area, especially when we are talking about hooliganism. You might not believe me, but I am not a hooligan ;)

It's some element of a society (not only Polish) but when it's made a journalism object there is a risk that it might become a landmark for a country...

I think that this kind of selfcensorship is bad. Poland didn't become european documentaries powerhouse because directors were considering if their movies will offend anybody or make Poland look bad. They simply showed how life in Poland looks like. Truth is always more interesting than propaganda (even positive propaganda). Finally during EURO we will have many guests/turists who will experience what Poland really is and non documentary will twist their view.

The reason if obvious. Do you really don't know why?

Not for me. Obviously poverty, lack of education and perspectives, but mayby not only.
I watch documentries constantly (it's my addiction), many were eyeopening for me. Even if some show twisted view of reality I am capable to recognize that and guess what are the reasons for that. I have faith in other people and their intelligence. They will be able to make distinction between serious documentary and propaganda.
a.k.
23 Feb 2012  #18
Alligator

I'm fed up with answering for posts like that: Is Poland a safe country? I heard the streets are full of skinheads.
Each time we talk about some social phenomenom, we talk about a part of the wider picture which makes a society. A part doesn't make a whole. If there would be a counter balance for all the negative messages which are carried with media, then that would be ok to make documentaries about crimminals. But Poland has no image to make a counter balance (and if it has na image it has a negative image). Look how would you react for a documentary about British foodball hooligans and for example Russian foodball hooligans? I've watched about British and they are the same as Polish ones. But after watching it I had no impression that Great Britain is full of skinheads, neonazis and other dangerous groups. If I watched one about Russians I would.

Finally during EURO we will have many guests/turists who will experience what Poland really is and non documentary will twist their view.

An the OP is planing to go there to make his documentry exactly during the Euro. Funny coincidence.

Not for me. Obviously poverty, lack of education and perspectives, but mayby not only.

Better watch that Ross Kemp reportage.
The reason is exactly the same as the reason to form gangs in the USA. Young males who wants a group to indentificate with have no better options than join such groups. In those groups they can show their manhood (fights in ustawki) and a group gives them a feel of brotherhood too.

I have faith in other people and their intelligence.

I don't.

They will be able to make distinction between serious documentary and propaganda.

I don't encourage to make a propaganda movie but to choose other subject for a documentary.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
23 Feb 2012  #19
You have no bad intentions?

how do you know what his intentions are? DO you have a crystal ball? Just curious;). I see nothing suspicious about being interested in Polish football hooligans. How do you know that the OP is going to reinforce bad stereotypes.

Why don't you register instead of lurking?

Topic like any others to be honest and it is a part of Polish reality.

They simply showed how life in Poland looks like. Truth is always more interesting than propaganda (even positive propaganda).

I agree with that. a.k. doesn't seem to like the truth about Poland, colourful or not.

Can anyone direct me to resources about Polish football hooliganism or give personal experiences or opinions about the phenomenon?

that would be a little difficult since it is a pretty sealed environment, but there may be a poster here who is able to help you.

Soccer clubs in Poland have official websites- not sure you are interested in those.

Good luck.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
23 Feb 2012  #20
You have no bad intentions? Yeah, sure! You want to do a documentary (or maybe a reportage) about Polish hooliganism just before Euro championships?

It's an issue now. Both hooliganism in general (and after all there are some pretty big matches happening this year in PL) and hooliganism in Poland in particular (which is never out of the press and about which at least one other documentary has been made).

That's suspiscious.

Not suspicious at all - the media write about controversial things - it's for the tourist board to only write the nice and sweet stuff.

Perhaps you'd prefer the OP avoided controversial current affairs and instead produced a documentary about how pretty Kazimierz Dolny is?
OP sakowicz50 1 | 6
24 Feb 2012  #21
Ok, you guys got me. My real name is Vladimir Smirnoff and I wish to sabotage Poland. I am going to report back to the KGB saying my mission was disrupted by several intelligent poles who are a great asset to their kinsmen.

Well played.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,667
24 Feb 2012  #22
For general modern history of Poland, Timothy Garton-Ash takes some beating.

He seems to be totally ignored by Poles, but he is far more of a historian than Davies ever will be. His book on Solidarity should be

I am Polish, my family studies its genealogy very well and everyone born before me was born in Poland

If they studied it "very well", they'd know that there's no possible way that everyone before you was born in Poland.

I want to find out more about the hooligan groups, their roots, their history, the people involved, and how many extremist ideologies seem to tie in with it all.

If you want to find out about them, you need to meet them.

But I would strongly urge you not to get involved with such a topic unless you really know what you're doing.
OP sakowicz50 1 | 6
24 Feb 2012  #23
To be honest I have nothing better to do with my life.

If they studied it "very well", they'd know that there's no possible way that everyone before you was born in Poland.

To a reasonable extent my family is 100% Polish-Lithuanian
polishmama 3 | 279
24 Feb 2012  #24
Yeah, I don't agree with delphaindomine in most things, right delph? ;) But I agree with him on this. Seriously, nothing better to do with your life, sounds like you actually want to join the hooligans. Or, you really are a troll.
Gregrog 4 | 100
15 Aug 2012  #25
Merged: Los Polacos - Poles in Cuba (documentary)

Short documentary about Poles living in Cuba.
vimeo.com/47006813#
beckski 12 | 1,617
16 Aug 2012  #26
Such an interesting film clip. It's hard for me to grasp the idea, of Polish people residing in Cuba permanently. Must have been an enormous culture shock for the 100 Polish residents.


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