Things that Polish-American should know about Poland.

I don't quite get the whole discussion about who is a real Pole or not, but I do agree that Polish-American people should get to know something about Polish history. I wish everybody knew more about Polish history, not just Polish-Americans. Hmmm, does that make me a little bit more Polish than American?

On a side note - American people like to identify themselves with their origins, no matter how far or tenuous. Some people think that is artificial or annoying, but for me as an American, I think it is sweet. My father's side of the family is definitely Polish (Michalik, a few generations back) but that is not why I came to Poland. I came here to work.

If it were possible, I would suggest that Polish-Americans move (not visit) to Poland for a time and foster relationships with Polish people, learn the language, read the newspapers, watch tv, and travel. I have my Polish husband and family to fill me in on cultural things I just don't understand, but if I didn't have him, I would hire somebody to discuss "Polish" stuff with. That is an expensive proposition but worthwhile.

P.S. We have been discussing the whole "Polish" thing lately at home. How American am I? I was born and raised in the US. I didn't know any Polish when I came here. I can speak ok now. I am married to a Pole, my kids were born in Poland and they speak Polish, but they are American, too. It is crazy!!!!

Oh man that was a good one :)))))))


Our views? you mean your views. You don't consider me a 1st generation Pole in America who speaks it better than you will ever to be Polish. You make your own **** up and stick by it, you dimwit.

No, dear lady, it was you who decided that you are not Polish: when you decided that the rights and obligations of citizens of Poland were no longer what you wanted and that you preferred to have those of a citizen of Canada, you stopped being Polish. You preferred not to be Polish even though you could have continued to be Polish, now you must live with not being Polish.


Oh dear child, perhaps now you will tell me that females are men. What a strange language you speak.


It is you who does not consider yourself a Pole: you are the one who chose to take another nationality and to renounce all allegiance to Poland, you are just American.

You're stupid. A person is what they feel like they are.

In which case you're definitely American: you feel so American that you asked for American citizenship and you feel so Polish that you absolutely renounced all allegiance to Poland. No Pole would ever renounce their allegiance to a free Poland.

What is an guy born and raised in Norway with a Norwegian mother and a Polish dad which got Polish ID card when he got 18? :) (He also got a Norwegian passport)

He also traveled to Poland each year (sometimes twice) if that is of any relevance

It is no crazier than in my case. My Mom and Dad immigrated to America in the early 1900.
Mine was a polish speaking household..My brother and I both went to a Polish Parochial schools taught by Nuns. We brushed up on the Polish grammer and history along with our regular American education. Although I speak a form of polish from my parents, it is a far cry from what I see on here.. I see words that I never heard of in my home. The same is with our Polish American music. To me Polish music in poland sucks. It sounds like a form of hip hop.

No thanks.. I will stick with my form of Polish culture. The bottom line is that I consider myself a 1st Generation Polish American. Most of all I consider myself as American as apple pie.

Even my Dad considered himself an American :)

I imagine the vast majority of Poles would rather die than renounce their allegiance to a free Poland.


The thing is, you've assimilated into Polish life. You know what's going on, you understand how the Tusk-Kaczynski rivalry has been tearing the country in half, you've taught yourself the language to a passable level and so on. You're a credit to Poland - and I see no harm in you passing observation on the country. It doesn't matter one bit if you're American or Polish - the point is that you know the deal and you live here.


Wow. Bang on the money :)

Given that those of us who have lived here for years barely understand some things no matter how hard we try, how can the average Polish-American hope to understand it? They simply can't.

The first thing that pops into my head when i think you you and Harry is retarded, second is stupid. There are hundreds of thousands of Poles who moved to other countries and got a different citizenship, none of them are traitors.

How many of them swore allegiance to another country - and with it, declared that they renounce their Polish citizenship?

Anyway, you swore that you renounced your citizenship - so you're either a traitor or a liar. Which is it?

Most countries don't require renunciation of allegiance to another state. The US is one of the few that do. Every naturalized US citizen has sworn to give up allegiance and renounce citizenship of any other states. Anyone who has been naturalized and retains their original citizenship is a criminal.

Yes you are, and you even spell grammar the way most of us do! LOL Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think this thread is absolutely silly. Most nationalities cherish and encourage exchanges with their expats no matter how they emigrated, how many generations ago, etc. Here on PF on the other hand we have several members who must have graduated from Dr. Mengele's "Pure Race Pole" labs, a disturbing and very illogical fixation on "I'm better than you are" ideology.

PS. No, I can't spell either. Just poking' fun at you, that's all. :)

It would disturb me greatly if those members were Poles living in Poland. But since they are not - it's just page filling and entertainment. Who cares what two confused about their own ethnicity and identity lunatics think?

You must by now be very used to having retarded things in your head. My personal favourite retarded thing in your head is the idea that a person who decides that he no longer wants to be treated as a Pole and wants to be an American so then swears allegiance to the USA while utterly renouncing all allegiance to Poland still has the right to call himself a Pole: that really is completely retarded! Although my second favourite retarded thing in your head is the idea that Poles are racist: you admittedly are racist but you, luckily, aren't a Pole and know very little about Poles.


And you must also be very used to having stupid things in your head. My personal favourite stupid thing in your head is the idea that a person who left Poland decades ago as a little child knows more about Poland and Poles than people who have been living here for more than a decade!

We do that too (Poles, that is).


Delphiandomine and Harry aren't Polish.

I think that he is actually talking more the idea which some posters here have that black people, Jewish people, Asian people etc can never be Polish.

I realize that, that is what I always hear from my relatives who travel to Poland. Notice I called them PF members and nothing else :)


Again, I called them PF members, that's it.

What I don't get is why there's so much venom here over something we all should be in agreement with, one way or the other we all feel something special about Poland. For some it's patriotism, for others traditions while some cling on to the melancholy of years long gone.

Yet does it really matter why? Isn't the fact we all have something in common an aspect we should cultivate and cherish? It's an amazing affair to attend a Scandinavian get-together in Minnesota. Swedes and Norwegians of third and fourth generations intermingle with tourists from Scandinavia and they all have a blast, some speak Swedish and Norwegian but most don't. ...but don't you ever imply to them they aren't real Swedes or Norwegians. ...and no one would ever try to imply that. Instead they all share their interests and talk about traditions from the past and the way things are done today. I wish we had some of that here on PF.

Now, I realize that PF is nothing like the real Poland, I know that the real thing is much, much better than what we've got here. ...but I wish some of the PF members were a little more welcoming. Whether they live in the UK, the US, Holland, Poland or elsewhere. Little less sarcasm and little more friendliness would be a nice change here.

.....
Right now I feel like we've created a cast system here on PF, notice I said we as I'm just as guilty. Within each cast we have our own "untouchables". On top of the "purity pedestal" we have the "real Poles" who ironically reside in the UK more often than not. Then we have the Plastic Poles which generally means the "Americans" and the word could also be used as a curse word (ie, "I hate you, you are so &$@&$ American!") ... because it's common knowledge that the Brits are better than the Americans, after all they ARE Europeans. Well, sort of.

So the Brits and often the Polish expats who now live in the UK (are you following me?) despise the Americans first and foremost, then they look down upon the rest of Europe followed by a feeling of contempt for the "real Poles" who they believe are clueless.

Then we have the German Poles who are torn over which side they should belong to? Whether Poland itself is a western or an eastern European country? They readily admit though that the Americans are at the very bottom of their "pure human race" scale; in fact they're just above the monkeys, ...but barely so.

We can't forget the Dutch who are wondering if they can lower the impact of the Islamic invasion of Holland by inviting a few more of those weird Christians from Poland? After all, they seem to be European, right? Well, then they hear the horror stories from their French neighbors about those Polish plumbers so they decide to stick to the Middle-Easterners. It could be worst, those immigrants could've come from America!

I shouldn't forget our Balkan friends; we have Serbs, we have Greeks, we have Croats, not really part of the Balkan culture but not too far away we also have our Turkish friends - their mutual distaste for each other is best enjoyed in the proximity of an American, then all of a sudden a miracle occurs - they become their own bestest (yes, that's a word!) friends and they mutually disembowel the American weirdo.

Then we have the real Poles. One must have been born and have lived in Poland continuously to have the right to call him/herself a Pole. A 30-day period overseas is an exception to the above rule. If anyone spends more than 30 days overseas he/she automatically becomes a Plastic Pole if the vacation destination was in the western hemisphere. If the vacation happend to be in Europe the time limit might be extended to no more than 60 days BUT only if the trip was to the UK (except Scotland), Ireland (except Northern Ireland) or the Netherlands (except the Flemish speaking areas).

Whenever a real Pole stays in a European country for more than the prescribed period his/her "Polishness" seizes to exist and the new term to be used becomes "hooligan", "frog-eater", "plastic-pole", "amero-pole", "linguini", etc., etc.

If a real Pole ventures out to a country in the eastern part of Europe the max "away" limit becomes 15 days. This rule cannot be changed. If a Pole ventures out to Russia he/she is not a real Pole and never was a real Pole, no exceptions!

......

Yes, I realize that this is just PF and not real Poland, I know that people are simply venting. However I struggle with all those "I'm better than you are" comments and innuendoes, from all sides. I joined PF to reconnect, to get encouragement but often feel that I get hate, venom and sarcasm instead.

I guess that's part of the online culture. To all you "purist" Poles (I'm talking about the PF crowd) you often forget that many of us who do not live in Poland today ended up wherever we are because of our parents, our grandparents, etc. Sometimes it was voluntarily and sometimes it wasn't.

Either way, a sense of connection and support would surely be more appropriate than ridicule and finger-pointing. I know, I am a dreamer but I am not the only one... :)

"...Bo kto siedzi w Ojczyźnie i cierpi niewolę, aby zachować życie, ten straci Ojczyznę i życie; a kto opuści Ojczyznę, aby bronił Wolności narażeniem życia swego, ten obroni Ojczyznę i będzie żyć wiecznie..."

Autor: Adam Mickiewicz

For me it's pretty easy. If you're a naturalized US citizen, you're no longer legally Polish. You're American. No ifs ands or buts. You have sworn to renounce all other allegiances and citizenships (unlike when you become a naturalized Brit, Aussie, or Canadian) and defend the US before any foreign interests.

It's something that every adult naturalized citizen swore to. Exercising the privileged of a foreign passport after having been naturalized is a crime. Retaining a foreign passport after being naturalized is a crime which the State Dept actually used to pursue. Poles who become naturalized US citizens renounce all allegiance to Poland, promise not to fight for Poland, and of course declare that you're only a citizen of the US.

That's not a gray area type deal. Poles naturalized in the US no longer wanted to be Poles, ergo, they're as American as it can get, by choice. I never had to recite that oath, and I doubt I would if say I wanted a Swiss passport and they made me renounce my other citizenships. But hey, there are a lot of criminals and swindlers out there breaking US laws. It seems pretty common now a days to break immigration law with no repercussions..

Not in the minds of some of our more Aryan members. If your rule were to hold true, black/Asian/Jewish people and the like would be able to be Polish!

I think your trip home has gotten to your brain convex. Reread my post again, am I advocating renouncing my American citizenship? Am I? This website is called Polish Forums and as such it is a venue for ALL of us who somehow feel a connection to Poland to do just that, connect. Not to discuss whose country is better or bigger or what not. It's not a "mine is bigger than yours" bragging score card. You might be a moderator but you lost the idea behind it. ...or maybe I misunderstood what PF was from day one...


...and to me those rules are as common sense as it gets.

You are writing a lot but I don't really understand your complains.
On PF from about more or less 40 - 50 regular members, there is maybe like 6- 9 Polish onces, and I'm not talking about real Poles whatever it means but about people born and educated in Poland, holding Polish citizenship.

Delph is a Scot and Harry - Australian or whatever !
I do not perceive that venom you talk about, maybe you are oversensitive? All I can see is two foreign lunatics in Poland, havening a go at PolAmes ! Just ignore them!

Personally, I think that you are what you really think that you are if that makes any sense:)

Surely you have to agree that someone that renounces their allegiance to a country and then claims to be a member of that country should be treated as suspect. If they want to connect to Poles, that's great. They did however decide that they no longer wanted to be Polish. People born in the US to parents of Polish descent, that's a completely different story as they never made a conscious decision to no longer be Polish. Good deal to those folks for trying to connect.

a) Bzi isn't American, she's Canadian.
b) People who chose to join another nation are no longer Polish in anyway. Their children could claim (accurately) to be partly Polish but those people have declared that they want to be a member of another nation and must be treated in the way that they requested. There is nothing to stop a Pole from living in the USA or Canada or UK or where-ever and keeping their Polish nationality if they want to but some people preferred not to be treated as Poles and wanted to be something else: now they can live with that decision.

We have people in America who've lived here for generations who still call themselves Italians. When they travel abroad they're Americans but here they're Italians because they like to hang on to their Italian traditions. Melting pot you know and some ingredients have more flavor than others. Don't see anything wrong with that. I might be oversensitive to certain aspects of this issue as Ironside pointed out but so are you.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread, no one seems to understand my point. You are talking legal issues, passports. I'm talking about traditions, memories, culture. Apples and oranges. I thought PF was a venue to discuss those items, instead more often than not it's a "you're not a real Pole", or "my country is better than your country" forum. Apples and ...rotten eggs.

I think it is up to them to decide !You are not some kind of arbiter or judge to make those decisions for them! There is no need for that, and it is bureaucratic a way of thinking, I disagree with!

And as I pointed out above, they can accurately do that: they are partly Italian and if they decide to call themselves Italian American they clearly want to be Italian American too. The exception to the rule would be the people who decided that they would prefer to being American than be Italian and so decided to ask to be treated in the way that Americans are treated and not to be treated in the way that Italians are treated. Those people decided to be Americans and that is all that they are: if they had wanted to be Italian, they could have carried on being Italian (and been Italian in the USA too).

If they renounced their Italian citizenship, they're Americans. They might enjoy their Italian heritage, but, they're as Italian as you or I. Semantics, sure, but at some point those people decided that they were no longer Italian, and would rather be American. That's a simple choice, and one that can be respected. I enjoy Italian traditions as well, and even went as far as to pick up some of the language, and spend some time there. I think it'd be a bit ridiculous to call myself Italian based on that :) I'm in the "doesn't matter where your parents decided to make you" camp, and don't really identify with one or the other. People want to explore different cultures, cool deal. People can even identify with different cultures, as silly as that might be, they're free to do it :)


Sure the legal aspect, as well as the simple meaning of the action of renouncing your allegiance to Poland. You might have a point of course if you were to bring up renouncing your allegiance to the Polish state vs the Polish people, but I think those are more or less bonded pretty tight. No one is talking about "my country is better than yours", at least I haven't seen it anywhere in this thread.

Yes it is up to them to decide, and there is the point: they decided to take new nationality. If they want to go back to being their original nationality (or nationalities), they must first give up their acquired nationality; if they renounced allegiance to their original nation and swore allegiance to the new one, they should also renounce their new allegiance before asking if their original nation will re-accept their allegiance.

BTW: in the case of Americans, judges certainly did decide: they would find people guilty if those people used their original passports after becoming American!


That is a possible line of defense which people who acquired new citizenship while Poland wasn't a free country could use. But for those who have acquired other citizenship since 1989 it really isn't a viable one and those who have left Poland since 1989 really can not use it at all!

Then you don't have to be bothered by what they think. They have no say in this matter, as they are foreigners, not Poles.


Who is "he"?


If we're talking about ethnicity then all you have to do is to have one Polish parent, for example:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandra_Szwed

If we're talking about something else, then I think it's up to the foreigner living in Poland who he/she wants to be or considers himself/herself to be.

It is not for you, convex or American judges to decide who is Polish and who's not Polish.
You won't change your ethnicity by changing citizenship. It's biology, genes. Your eyes won't suddenly change from blue to green or brown if you become a citizen of another country lol


You don't have any Italian roots so this comparison is ridiculous.

Roots are just a question of how far back you want to go. Many times, those roots are nothing more than names on a piece of paper.

Identification with a nation also seems differ based on the country. Most Italians will identify themselves based on where they're from first, and then work their way up to "Italy", same goes for Germans, French, Spanish...

Dunno, as far as renouncing Polish citizenship though, that seems pretty straightforward in that one no longer wants to be identified as Polish.