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Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture"


Bolle 1 | 147
28 Oct 2010 #61
Sooo.. I was told to start a thread.

No, YOU wanted to start a complaining thread - your complaining about poland and americans is annoying and worse than hearing poles complain about everything.

I'm starting to think brits complain more than poles - good lord is this possible??

"Busha"

Does not mean grandmother. I've never heard anyone in polonia say that. Maybe you heard someone talk about george.

Jaja (isn't this eggs?)

Eggs or testicles (slang).

don't even understand that the Polish word for a male Pole is "Polak"

Incorrect. American used to call polish migrants "dumb polaks." Over time the dumb part was dropped due to it being offensive, but yanks continued calling poles "polaks" as the same vulgar meaning was still understood.

Then there's the way that many of them completely mispronounce their "Polish" name. The worst example? I found a video on youtube of someone called "Marchewka". Anyone living in Poland will know that it's pronounced something similar to "mar-hef-ka" - but to the Polonia? It's "Mar-Chew-Ka". Gah.

Seriously, why do real Poles put up with them?

The only thing wrong with the polonia is that they get involved in polish politics and support the kaczki. Other than that, poles like the polonia as almost everyone in poland has at least 1 family member in the usa.

The polish language among the polonia will fade overtime and these people will continue calling themselves polish-americans the same way americans of italian heritage call themselves italian americans (same goes for scots, irish, krauts etc).

It's a north american thing, an ignorant, grumpy, closed minded limey like you will never understand.

Maybe you want to start a new thread now to complain about the american pronunciation of english words...

The odd thing is why they appear to vote Kaczynski, yet idol-worship Walesa and vote Democrat. Doesn't make any sense at all!

They idol walesa because of solidarity and kaczynski because he is reminiscent of the poland they left in the past. Poland has changed considerably, the polonia hasn't really that much as they weren't around for the transition.

Worst thing is, that seems to be their attitude - that Poland is poor, and while it's fine to come and visit (and look down at) the relatives, it's not for staying in.

Nobody from the polonia looks down on poles in poland. In fact they help their family in poland. But you wouldn't know this because your not a Pole. Staying is not an option for most as they have settled in their adoptive countries, established careers, had kids etc and besides poland is a different place. Emigrating out of poland was VERY difficult for most poles, nobody wants to repeat that. Again nothing you could every understand.

Talk about desperately trying to make mountains out of molehills to bring divisions between Poles in Poland and their relatives outside of Poland.

Divide and rule. It's the british way.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
28 Oct 2010 #62
Yes, I know the money and goods were being sent to Poland, but I'm asking - how was it brave? People abroad did not risk ANYTHING. If they were so brave, why didn't they come back and do something real in the country?

You are juxtaposing bravery with stupidity. What would stupid bravery do? How much more useful some of those abroad would be if they spend 1980's in jails instead of helping those in Poland?

How would you imagine a lot of Polonia could have "came back" to do something useful if many were actually stripped of Polish citizenship by a decree, so they would have to apply for a visa which would have been likely refused. If granted, many would have likely gone straight to jail or be under careful surveillance.

Not belonging to the party could def. cost you your career.

You are overemphasizing the PZPR membership. Party membership guaranteed nothing, although it was a prerequisite for some jobs (militia, professional military force, most government positions). There were some potential perks if you were a party member - emphasis on "potential". A lot of schmucks thought they'd get a coupon for Fiat 126p, or a bigger apartment, and that was pretty much it.

Nobody in their right mind thought that staying away from PZPR was in any way, shape or form dangerous or brave - over 90% of Poles were never the members. In fact, during 1980's a vast majority attended churches. There was nothing heroic about that, although in many cases it was actually comical.

Again, your concept of bravery is a little bit on a childish side.
Torq
28 Oct 2010 #63
Party membership guaranteed nothing, although it was a prerequisite for some
jobs (militia, professional military force

Not true. I know personally many former militia officers and LWP soldiers who were never
members of the party, but reached high ranks (2nd Lieutenant to Major) without any
form of persecution or pressure exerted on them to join PZPR. Maybe for the highest ranks
(Colonels and Generals) there was some sort of pressure, I don't know any such people
personally, but somehow I doubt it.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
28 Oct 2010 #64
I didn't know a whole lot of cops so I stand corrected, and thanks for the info.
This would confirm that staying away from the PZPR membership was nowhere near as heroic as landora would have us believe.
Torq
28 Oct 2010 #65
staying away from the PZPR membership was nowhere near as heroic as landora would have us believe.

Of course it wasn't heroic.

There was very little (if any) heroism in Poland after 1945 (apart for the few freedom fighters
who continued the struggle against the Soviet occupation well into the 1950's.)
Also - the majority of people, 23 million of them (out of the 35 million pre-war population),
who rebuilt the country from complete ruins, very often living in poverty, working for peanuts
and keeping Polish Catholicism and traditions alive - yes, they can be considered heroic too
in their efforts to bring Poland from the ashes back to life.

Apart from that, there was very, very little heroism indeed. The entire "solidarity" movement,
financed with American money, during cold war, had nothing to do with heroism either,
as we could learn and observe, when the "solidarity" chieftains sat at the round table with
communists and shared the wealth, influence and power between them (the results of this
treason can still be felt today, and will be felt for many years to come.)

We used to be a heroic nation. Not anymore though. There are those, who are trying to save
the true Polish heritage for future generations, but they are in minority - mocked, ridiculed
and treated with contempt. Those people, whom the likes of "Gazeta Wyborcza" depict as
primitive, small-minded and xenophobic - they will save our soul, heart and true Polishness.

All the Polish "backwards, paranoic chauvinists", wherever you are - I SALUTE YOU!
beckski 12 | 1,617
28 Oct 2010 #66
I for one don't mind eating "pierogies" in Oklahoma :)

Nor in California for that matter...
MediaWatch 10 | 945
28 Oct 2010 #67
Softsong,

Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you!

Well said!

Yes what's most important is WHERE THE HEART IS!

Who cares if a supporter of Poland in America doesn't know about some little detail here and there about Poland.......what counts is what's in his or her heart. Does he or she like Poland and is interested in Poland or not is the key. I may not agree with every single thing some Poles say here or there, but NOBODY of any group of people agree 100% all the time on everything lol

No doubt delphiandomine started this topic in an attempt to divide and create tensions between Poles in Poland and people of Polish ancestry. All while he hypocritically acts like he is some great judge or arbiter of what's good for Polish people in general while he takes every oppotunity to knock Poles in Poland and Polonia. The other day he gleefully listed a long list of CRITICISMS he had for Poland and NOT Polish Americans. That's hardly the kind of person who is worthy or credible of passing judgement on Poland or Polonia since his heart is AGAINST Poland totally.

Delphiandomine seems to take delight in any negativity about Poland and its people. I have no problem with people criticizing Poles, Poland or Polonia if its constructive criticism. Heck I have done it myself. I have criticized bad Poles/Polish criminals on many occasions. But his criticisms of all things Polish is reflective of some kind of vendetta he has against Poland & Polonia. His comments about how he "likes Poland" are quite phoney in my book.

Also like you my ancestry is not 100% Polish, yet I have an interest in Poland and Polish people which I think is good.

Yes us Polish Americans are not perfect and yes since we try to be good citizens of whatever country we live in, our loyalty will always be FIRST to the country we live in - America. But that does NOT somehow disqualify us from being supporters of other people of Polish ancestry.

Also it never hurts having a vocal Polish American community putting pressure on government officials here to help Poland when it can. The Polish American community was definitely a contributing factor for the US to have Poland in NATO. There is a NY Times article which talked about how Polonia was pressuring the Clintons and other goverment officials to have Poland in NATO. Back then there was no gaurantee Poland would be accepted in NATO.

Now some may feel that NATO today is not that important but back 12 years ago it was seen to be important and if nothing else was a stepping stone for Poland to be better integrated with other European countries even on non-military matters.
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Oct 2010 #68
Delphiandomine seems to take delight in any negativity about Poland and its people.

I don't think he's criticizing Poland and Poles as much as Polish-XXXX, whatever nationality, as overstating their connection to Poland and having more of a say in Polish politics than people that live her long term (and of course pay expensive taxes, VAT, etc). Just an observation, not necessarily one that I agree with.

Also it never hurts having a vocal Polish American community putting pressure on government officials here to help Poland when it can. The Polish American community was definitely a contributing factor for the US to have Poland in NATO. There is a NY Times article which talked about how Polonia was pressuring the Clintons and other goverment officials to have Poland in NATO. Back then there was no gaurantee Poland would be accepted in NATO.

Not so sure about that. The vocal Polish American community hasn't been able to budge the state department on the visa waiver program. I highly doubt there was much of an influence in pushing Poland into NATO. Was the Romanian-American community paramount in getting Romania into NATO? How about the mighty Slovenian-American lobby? Not buying this one.

No doubt delphiandomine started this topic in an attempt to divide and create tensions between Poles in Poland and people of Polish ancestry.

He created this thread because I didn't want to keep sending crap to random. You both obviously have things to say about it.

Also like you my ancestry is not 100% Polish, yet I have an interest in Poland and Polish people which I think is good.

Absolutely.

Who cares if a supporter of Poland in America doesn't know about some little detail here and there about Poland.......what counts is what's in his or her heart. Does he or she like Poland and is interested in Poland or not is the key. I may not agree with every single thing some Poles say here or there, but NOBODY of any group of people agree 100% all the time on everything lol

Now, the big question, do you feel qualified to make political decisions in Poland? Do you feel the need to defend Poles, or Polish-Americans? Do you think that Poland, as a nation, as a people, need defending in the US...or do you think that Polish-Americans need to be defended?
zetigrek
28 Oct 2010 #69
The only reason I'm not very fond of American Polonia is that many of them are Rydzyk supporters and PiSofans...
z_darius 14 | 3,968
28 Oct 2010 #70
So could you give us a link to some stats with the numbers of Rydzyk's supporters in the US and Poland?
pgtx 30 | 3,156
28 Oct 2010 #71
I'm not very fond of American Polonia is that many of them are Rydzyk supporters and PiSofans...

yes, you can easily recognize them on American streets by a moherowy beret and a cross in their hand...

;)
zetigrek
28 Oct 2010 #72
So could you give us a link to some stats with the numbers of Rydzyk's supporters in the US and Poland?

Well I've read it many times in media so I guess you can find it easly.

For instance here:

Presidential elections were held in the United States on Saturday , and the vote in the four districts of consular . American Polonia indulged their votes in 28 polling stations operating in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Washington , and even Anchorage , Alaska. Registered to vote, 38,000 Poles , surpassing the record of 8000 so far Polonia turnout in the parliamentary elections in 2007 .

Just as voters in Chicago , so the Poles selecting the president in New York definitely put Jaroslaw Kaczynski, who won all seven polling stations in New York.

z_darius 14 | 3,968
28 Oct 2010 #73
Well I've read it many times in media so I guess you can find it easily.

No, I can't so you guessed incorrectly. But since you've read it many times I'm sure you'll give us those numbers. Or are these numbers also just a guess?

The name "Rydzyk" doesn't appear even once in the article.
Torq
28 Oct 2010 #74
Rydzyk supporters and PiSofans

Better than Michnik supporters and POfans :)
zetigrek
28 Oct 2010 #75
PO doesn't have fans. It's just that PiS has its antifans ;)

If there hadn't been PiS there wouldn't be PO.
Ironside 50 | 11,145
28 Oct 2010 #76
The only reason I'm not very fond of American Polonia is that many of them are Rydzyk supporters and PiSofans...

What is wrong with that ?
Those who have the right to vote, are polish citizens, regardless of the place they dwell, they have that right, but people like them constitute minority of polish-Americans.

yes, you can easily recognize them on American streets by a moherowy beret and a cross in their hand...

;)

You would know :)
by the way can you still buy Yugo in Texas?
z_darius 14 | 3,968
28 Oct 2010 #77
fakt.pl/Rydzyk-w-USA-Bilety-po-35-dolarow-,artykuly,6 1901,1 .html

Still nothing about the number of Rydzyk's supporters in the US, or in Poland. The only number I see is the ticket price.
Torq
28 Oct 2010 #78
If there hadn't been PiS there wouldn't be PO.

Ah, the eternal egg and hen question. PiS and PO, good and evil, Michnik and Rydzyk,
yin and jang etc. etc.

Still, PiS arouses mild amusement in me, while PO causes more vomit inducing feelings, so I guess
I'd rather be amused :)
zetigrek
28 Oct 2010 #79
Still nothing about the number of Rydzyk's supporters in the US, or in Poland. The only number I see is the price ticket price.

sorry I can't find statistics but it's common stereotype in Poland that among American Polonia Rydzyk is very popular. Also they vote mostly for Republicans
grubas 12 | 1,390
28 Oct 2010 #80
I don't think he's criticizing Poland and Poles as much as Polish-XXXX, whatever nationality, as overstating their connection to Poland and having more of a say in Polish politics than people that live her long term (and of course pay expensive taxes, VAT, etc). Just an observation, not necessarily one that I agree with.

There is a difference between a Pole and a foraigner criticizing Poland.As a Pole it is my God given right to criticize it all I want since this is "my" country.And if I criticize I do it only because I care for Poland and want it to be better.Same goes for most of other Poles,however hearing a foraigner talking **** about Poland puts me on defence and I will defend it no matter what.And it isn't only Poles doing this but also all other nationals.You Americans do same thing when someone says that US is not a perfect or greatest country.

The vocal Polish American community hasn't been able to budge the state department on the visa waiver program.

Oh please let it rest.Seriously 90% of Poles do not give a flying phuck about this issue.I don't go any country which requires visas for Poles.I will not let anybody to harras me in order to spend my money in his country.
zetigrek
28 Oct 2010 #81
There is a difference between a Pole and a foraigner criticizing Poland.As a Pole it is my God given right to criticize it all I want since this is "my" country.

Exactly! And I can't understand why foreigners don't get it.
I like to compere it with critisizing somebody's mother. I can critisize my mother but if someone else tried to do it he would earn a black eye.
Torq
28 Oct 2010 #82
There is a difference between a Pole and a foraigner criticizing Poland.As a Pole it is my God given right to criticize it all I want since this is "my" country.And if I criticize I do it only because I care for Poland and want it to be better

Exactly.

The same thing with Plastic Poles - if I want to annoy some Polonia member, call him a Plastic
Pole (tongue in cheek, or more seriously if he deserves it) or expose his lack of knowledge
about Poland, then it is my God given right to do so. However, if some puny foreigner starts
a thread and attacks my fellow Poles (plastic or not) then I can never support such action.

They are my people, they come from my country (or at least have Polish ancestors) and if
there's anyone entitled to insult them and hurl abuse at them - IT'S ME!
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Oct 2010 #83
There is a difference between a Pole and a foraigner criticizing Poland..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a Pole living in America, not the descendant of a Pole living in America. And honestly, people that live here, in Poland, will complain about the things that are worth complaining about. Just like we do anywhere else that we are because believe it or not, quite a few of us aren't sheep. Why is it bad to point out things about your surroundings? Why do Poles have a monopoly on making comments about Poland?

Oh please let it rest.Seriously 90% of Poles do not give a flying phuck about this issue.I don't go any country which requires visas for Poles.I will not let anybody to harras me in order to spend my money in his country.

Good to know that. I thought it was taken as an insult? Guess I'm wrong there.

Anyway, the point that was made was that Polish-Americans were somehow instrumental in getting Poland into NATO, I asked a couple of basic questions. Like whether or not the Slovenian-American community was instrumental in them joining NATO as well, and why the oft complained about visa waiver program issue hasn't been affected by the vocal Polish-American community.

They are my people, they come from my country (or at least have Polish ancestors) and if
there's anyone entitled to insult them and hurl abuse at them - IT'S ME!

So what's your limit? A parent? A grandparent? A great grandparent? Going back to an old topic, what makes a Pole? Great grandfather was Polish and I speak Polish, visit once a year, and celebrate Polish culture vs. Polish parent, no knowledge of the language, and not really caring too much about the culture other than when they can hyphenate their ethnicity? Which one is more Polish? How about people with half Polish children, that live in Poland, and work in Poland? They should just be quiet because great great grandpa wasn't a Pole? That makes zero sense, wouldn't you agree?
MediaWatch 10 | 945
28 Oct 2010 #84
Well I said the Polish American community was a CONTRIBUTING factor and not the decisive factor in getting Poland into NATO. Also speaking about Romanians and Slovenians, the Polish American community did not work by itself on this. I remember reading all the time

in Polish American newspapers how Polish Americans groups were working with other East European American groups on this issue since naturally other East European nations were also candidates for NATO.

From what I recall there were political forces inside and outside of the Clinton Administration that were for and against Poland and other East European nations going into NATO, or going into NATO in a short amount of time. For example Jewish American groups seemed to be split on it. I heard that some of them were contacted by some Polish Americans (and other East European Americans working with Polish Americans) and then there was more Jewish American support for East European nations going into NATO.

Also one must also give Germany credit since I heard Germany was a big supporter of Poland coming into NATO.

In a nutshell there were many political forces for and against it and in the end those who wanted Poland and other East European nations into NATO prevailed.

As for your critique on the Polish American community not being able to budge the state department on the visa issue, that's a fair point. Nobody is perfect. But if anything that should be a reason why MORE Polish Americans should be vocal against what they think is an injustice and not less vocal. But like most political issues, I heard that there are political forces opposing the visa issue which doesn't make things easier.

Now, the big question, do you feel qualified to make political decisions in Poland? Do you feel the need to defend Poles, or Polish-Americans? Do you think that Poland, as a nation, as a people, need defending in the US...or do you think that Polish-Americans need to be defended?

Hmmmmm

Well it all depends on the issue at hand. Maybe a little bit of all of the above? LOL

As for me being "qualified" on making a political decision in Poland, no I don't feel I am qualified since I don't live in that country, although of course I think I have a right to my opinion like anything else.

During the past Polish election I just made a general statement where I wanted to see the candidates who are good for Poland's economy, good on cutting taxes win. I did not pick candidate X or Y out of respect for those Poles voting.

As for me actually voting in an election in Poland?? LOL I didn't even know Polish Americans could even do that until I came to this forum and I would not even if I had the opportunity. I would leave that to the Poles of Poland.
Torq
28 Oct 2010 #85
So what's your limit? A parent? A grandparent? A great grandparent?

No limit really. If someone feels a connection with his Polish heritage, he's fully entitled
to be called a Plastic Pole by me (if he deserves it) and get his share of insults.

Going back to an old topic, what makes a Pole?

Heart, mind and soul. If someone considers himself Polish, then he is Polish
(therefore, exposing himself to my fierce criticism, but also enjoying my support
if any foreigner attacks him - that's how tribal solidarity works, really.)

Great grandfather was Polish and I speak Polish, visit once a year, and celebrate Polish culture vs. Polish parent, no knowledge of the language, and not really caring too much about the culture other than when they can hyphenate their ethnicity? Which one is more Polish?

Both cases' representatives are entitled to receive abuse from me. I don't discriminate in such cases.

How about people with half Polish children, that live in Poland, and work in Poland? They should just be quiet because great great grandpa wasn't a Pole?

The judgement is still on them. As it is a relatively new phenomenon in the recent Polish
history, we will have to wait for the final decision on them. I'd say that as soon as they
can say "w czasie suszy szosa sucha" or "w Strzebrzeszynie chrzÄ…szcz brzmi w trzcinie"
flawlessly, and when they start devouring gherkins, bigoses, pierogis and schabowe while
whole-heartedly supporting our hopeless football team, we will be able to accept them
as being of our tribe (and then they can criticise Poland all they want.)
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Oct 2010 #86
In a nutshell there were many political forces for and against it and in the end those who wanted Poland and other East European nations into NATO prevailed.

Regarding NATO, the biggest force pushing for integration of Central European countries was the DoD. They wanted CEE countries in NATO, they were invited to join, not petitioned.

As for your critique on the Polish American community not being able to budge the state department on the visa issue

Get off your asses and do something about it :) Who are the political forces fighting against it?

As for me actually voting in an election in Poland?

And I think that's one of the issues that were thrown out. That all people are lumped together, which is one of my pet peeves. There are quite a few Polish-Americans that vote, but not enough to impact the election at all, so I don't know why that plays any kind of role in the situation here, but hey.

Anywho, like I sad, I'm happy to eat pierogi, or piergoies, or whatever you want to call them as long as they taste like they should :)

tribal solidarity

Barbarians!
In all honesty, I think that bar is way to high before you can begin levying criticism on things. You know, hygiene in Kazakh restaurants isn't that great. I'm not Kazakh, does that preclude me from making that point? Probably not. I can also say that the government there is pretty corrupt, so are the border guards...should I keep my mouth shut?
MediaWatch 10 | 945
28 Oct 2010 #87
LOL

I agree!

However, if some puny foreigner starts
a thread and attacks my fellow Poles (plastic or not) then I can never support such action.

I agree!

American "plastic Poles" and regular Poles have to stick together against people bashing Polish people!!!

:)

Exactly.

They are my people, they come from my country (or at least have Polish ancestors) and if
there's anyone entitled to insult them and hurl abuse at them - IT'S ME!

LOL

I agree!That's because we all come from the same Polish family.
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Oct 2010 #88
American "plastic Poles" and regular Poles have to stick together against people bashing Polish people!!!

But what if they're not bashing Poland? What do you consider bashing Poland? If I say that the service here pretty much sucks, is that bashing Poland? How about if I say that the Russian military would steamroll over the Polish military? Still Poland bashing? How about Poland shouldn't be a G20 member because....

What's the line between criticism and "bashing"?
KazakhAndProud
28 Oct 2010 #89
You know, hygiene in Kazakh restaurants isn't that great.

That is an outrage! The standard of hygiene in our restaurants is one of the best in the world,
you liar! Whatever experience you might have does not mirror the entire Kazakh restaurant
industry, that you have just hurt with your unjust words!

the government there is pretty corrupt

As opposed to governments in majority of other countries in the worlds! *rolls his Kazakh eyes*
Please, don't embarass yourself with any further anti-Kazakh posts, Convex!

should I keep my mouth shut?

You bet you should, you Kazakh-hating twat!

We are currently developing a cohesive national identity, expanding the development of the
country's vast energy resources and exporting them to world markets;achieving a sustainable
economic growth; diversifying the economy outside the oil, gas, and mining sectors,
enhancing Kazakhstan's competitiveness; and strengthening relations with neighboring states
and other foreign powers.

The future looks bright for Kazakhstan and there's nothing that such anti-Kazakh haters
as Convex can do about it!
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Oct 2010 #90
The future looks bright for Kazakhstan and there's nothing that such anti-Kazakh haters
as Convex can do about it!

That's all true!


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