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Polish immigration in UK


Liza 3 | 111
5 Nov 2007 #121
There are plenty of foreign investors in Poland; my Polish language class of 10 was made up of one guy learning it for work (unrelated to property), five guys wanting to pick up girls (they find English women unappealing) and four guys who are part of a larger group investing in property.

Can you give the number of English that are benefiting - I mean the every day commnogarden bloke on the street, I don't mean those high up in industry - please state your source of information and figures.

It is well known that the British favour the Polish plumber or builder because they have an expectation (which in the majority is met) of quality work at a reasonable price - that is a benefit.

A reliable and motivated workforce is available for industries, including those in more rural areas that struggled to retain British workers who preferred to either collect benefits or move to larger centres seeking other opportunities. This ensures they can keep operating their businesses. As well as income tax, there are also company taxes to be paid, and goods can be obtained at a reasonable cost.

Lets face it Shelley, given that English workers have developed a reputation for laziness and skivving, is it any surprise that English employers seek an honest and hardworking staff member? As for working for £5.00, not all immigrants work for that (the average Polish hourly rate is £8.30). I personally wouldn't get out of bed for that, but I also recognise that due to my skills, I can obtain a higher wage. Possibly if you don't wish to work for £5.00 per hour, you could reconsider retraining or expanding your skill set? Age is not a barrier unless you let it be an excuse for laziness.

I understand that you are totally pro-polish, that's fine, but you must remember that you are English too

Actually, I'm not English.

As I've stated many times before, the Polish are being singled out unfairly. How about these for some figures?
Somalia - 81% not working; 39% claiming income support; 80% in social housing
Turkey - 59% not working; 21% claiming income support; 49% in social housing
Bangladesh - 56% not working; 11% claiming income support; 41% in social housing
Pakistan - 55% not working; 11% claiming income support; 15% in social housing
Iran - 48% not working; 10% claiming income support; 33% in social housing
Cyprus - 32% not working; 9% claiming income support; 16% in social housing
Jamaica - 31% not working; 6% claiming income support; 35% in social housing
China - 31% not working; 2% claiming income support; 9% in social housing
Portugal - 30% not working; 7% claiming income support; 40% in social housing
India - 29% not working; 3% claiming income support; 8% in social housing
Zimbabwe - 15% not working; 3% claiming income support; 20% in social housing
France - 15% not working; 1% claiming income support; 5% in social housing
Australia - 11% not working; 1% claiming income support; 5% in social housing
Canada - 15% not working; 2% claiming income support; 8% in social housing
Poland - 15% not working; 1% claiming income support; 8% in social housing
If you returned or simply ceased to support the top five drains on British society, the resulting cashflow could be more fairly distributed, whether that was for education, healthcare, social housing or just help the poor and old. I'm not necessarily saying that would solve everything, but it does show that the biggest drains on British government funds are not the Polish.
Bartolome 2 | 1,085
5 Nov 2007 #122
(the average Polish hourly rate is £8.30)

Errr, I find it 'too optimistic'.
JustysiaS 13 | 2,240
5 Nov 2007 #123
£8.30 average? you are having a laugh, seriously...
osiol 55 | 3,922
5 Nov 2007 #124
If that's average, should this spur me on to learn more Polish?
starchild 2 | 120
5 Nov 2007 #125
There's an element of truth to this... if you look at the building trade. In this area and probably a rather large radius, the average starting hourly rate for a general all round builder/chippy would be about £10 ph. We couldn't employ anyone for less than that.

But... this is still a low wage comparatively, as their english counterparts are on £18+ ph.

I work in construction so I know these figures are correct, for this area anyway.
johan123 1 | 228
5 Nov 2007 #126

The English need to deal with these facts and stop blaming Joe Pole!

Besides it would be great to see the figures for the locals. Many a work shy Brit about town. That's for sure!
osiol 55 | 3,922
5 Nov 2007 #127
The English need to deal with these facts and stop blaming Joe Pole!

The kind of troll that comes to this forum to complain about Joe Pole also complains about all of the above too.
Some people just recognise that there are problems with people who don't work when they are able to.

Many a work shy Brit about town. That's for sure!

They were not mentioned? That would have made the figures more interesting.
Liza 3 | 111
5 Nov 2007 #128
Besides it would be great to see the figures for the locals. Many a work shy Brit about town. That's for sure!

They were not mentioned? That would have made the figures more interesting

Sorry apologies they were mentioned -
UK- 22% not working; 4% claiming income support; 17% in social housing
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510
5 Nov 2007 #129
How about these for some figures?

these figures are worthless until the percentages are related to another figure... as you no doubt well know...

and could you cite your source
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544
5 Nov 2007 #130
a more accurate view is that poles, desperate to make as much money as they possibly can, are pricing their fellow poles out of the market

this is obviously an uncomfortable fact for people do deal with... its much easier to blame foreigners than to take responibility themselves

A very fair point Bubba. But just to make things more levelled I think that we ought to mention that:

- polish politicians nor polish people didn't force the EU officials to accept Poland to the European Union

- polish politicins nor polish people didn't force british politicians to open Britains market for EE workers

- and last but not least, polish politicians nor polish people don't force British employers to hire them. Of course by them I mean polish workers and not polish politicians. :)

Basically British employers, desperate to make as much money as they possibly can, choose to hire a pole over their fellow brit, despite those British workers mortgage and obviously starving children, that we keep hearing about on this forum.

This is obviously an uncomfortable fact for people do deal with... its much easier to blame foreigners than to take responsibility themselves.
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510
5 Nov 2007 #131
cant speak for others but i am as happy to pay my polish builder in the uk less [and for a better job] than i would pay a local brit as i am to buy polish property for substantially less than i would pay here in the uk

and equally, i am just as happy to tell a brit who feels he is having his livelyhood taken from him by a pole that hes a twat and should have stayed at school a little longer as i am to tell somebody who thinks that the inflated property prices in poland are due to overseas investors that they are talking out of their arse
Liza 3 | 111
5 Nov 2007 #132
Errr, I find it 'too optimistic'

£8.30 average? you are having a laugh, seriously...

Rank Country of birth Average hourly pay
1 USA £17.10
2 Canada £15.60
3 Australia £15.20
4 South Africa £13.50
5 Uganda £13.40
6 Republic of Ireland £13.10
7 Kenya £12.50
8 France £12.30
9 Italy £11.90
10 Cyprus £11.70
11 Jamaica £11.60
12 India £11.50
13= UK £11.10
13= Zimbabwe £11.10
15 Nigeria £10.80
16 Sri Lanka £10.50
17 Pakistan £10.20
18 China £10.10
19= Ghana £9.40
19= Iran £9.40
21 Bangladesh £9.30
22 Philippines £9.10
23 Turkey £8.90
24 Portugal £8.70
25 Somalia £8.50
26 Poland £8.30
rafik 18 | 589
5 Nov 2007 #133
£8.30 average? you are having a laugh, seriously...

Errr, I find it 'too optimistic'.

it says "average" not "most people".there are a lot of doctors,engineers,managers,it specialists and other skilled people from poland in the uk.the better u speak english the more likely u are to find a good job.i have a ****** manual job and get 10£/hour which isn't bad provided that i started with 5.50 3 years ago and i'm not going to stop there.

give it another 5 years we will be up there in the top 5.at the moment too many highly skilled people can't use their skills because of the language barriers.
lennyd
5 Nov 2007 #134
maybe bubbawoo or whatever should have a polish person doing his job for a lower rate and see how he complains
postie 7 | 112
5 Nov 2007 #135
And the reality is........ if you live in a small town, with seasonal unemployment, and with a high influx of foreign nationals, then the "average wage" is going to be a lot less than what you hear about in towns or areas that have little unemployment and a demand for manual workers.

I unfortunately live in such a town... and I can't move away easily. I'm unskilled, though certainly not stupid, and have seen my wage drop because Poles have come here in massive numbers. It's depressed the wage earning potential of those who ARE willing to work.

Saying that, I don't have a single problem with any worker moving to any part of the world to seek better prospects for themselves. I'd do the same if i could. I certainly don't blame the Poles. I personally have more in common with fellow working class Poles than I do with a British boss. It aint the Poles driving down the wages, it's the bosses knowing their is a pool of labour the can exploit and let us fight out as to who is willing to work for the lowest price. (which is £5.52.. minimum wage)

But, there isn't a "one size fits all" solution to this debate.... what is true in one town/area, isn't in another.
Ranj 21 | 948
5 Nov 2007 #136
maybe bubbawoo or whatever should have a polish person doing his job for a lower rate and see how he complains

Don't think BW would care, as he works for himself, and if a Polish person wants to do the same thing as BW, then more power to him....it is afterall their right.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893
6 Nov 2007 #137
Actually, I'm not English.

So why the hell do you think you have a right to have such a strong opinion about the English, now I understand why you are so negative, here's an idea, why don't you go back to where you come from - Im sure it wont be too long because Im sure you dont want to over stay your visa!

Lets face it Shelley, given that English workers have developed a reputation for laziness

The British actually work longer hours than anyone else in Europe - so again you are wrong - but being a foreigner it's quite believable that you haven't got all the facts.

And if the average hourly rate in Pakistan is practically the same as the UK then why the hell are there so many of them over here same as the rest of them - figures can say what you want them to, fudging figures is a favourite of those in power, so I will take the above with a pinch of salt.

(which is £5.52.. minimum wage)

Postie, I saw an agency near to where I work in the city centre of Manchester advertising for warehouse staff for £5.00 an hour - two years ago the same job would have been circa. £7.00, whilst inflation rises along with everything else - salaries seem to have reduced.....it doesnt take a genius to work out the reasons behind this.

Im not anti polish and the few Polish people on this board will tell you this, but I am concerned about the state of my country.
johan123 1 | 228
6 Nov 2007 #138
Im not anti polish and the few Polish people on this board will tell you this, but I am concerned about the state of my country.

I am also concerned about the state of your country. If things carry on like this (5.50 an hour) us Poles will have to start looking eslewhere for work. It's ok for Brits to earn such low wages in their own country, but what about us we have to send our families money At 5,50 there won't be a lot to send.
Macduff 9 | 69
6 Nov 2007 #139
The fact is the British economy is far stronger since the large immigration of Polish people to the Uk and unemployment has actually went down.

Fact the Polish economy is now stronger and unemployment has also fallen.

Fact the Irish and Scottish people are some of if not the biggest immigrants in the world (Think of any major capital city in the world where there are not Scottish or Irish business)

By the way I am Scottish.
Liza 3 | 111
6 Nov 2007 #140
and could you cite your source

Britains Immigrants Report by the IPPR
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893
6 Nov 2007 #141
The fact is the British economy is far stronger since the large immigration of Polish people to the Uk and unemployment has actually went down.

thats what they keep telling us, fact of the matter is property is no longer selling and an estimated 45,000 properties will be repossed in the next 12 months....hmmm not what I call a booming economy! I've seen some write about how we have credit cards and debt in the UK, but thats how a lot of families survive each month because there isnt really an alternative because life is so expensive in this country and property prices are only obtainable for most if they do juggle their credit cards!

:
postie 7 | 112
6 Nov 2007 #142
Im not anti polish and the few Polish people on this board will tell you this, but I am concerned about the state of my country.

Quite simply ShelleyS, the legal minimum wage that can be paid to an adult is now £5.52. I just copied this from a Govt website:

There are three levels of minimum wage, and the rates from 1st October 2007 are:

Maybe the advert you saw was for someone on the lesser rates????

I've said on a different thread on this forum, that a few years ago, as an agency worker, I was in demand and could pick and choose who to work for, with the highest paying job normally chosen, though sometimes it would be a lesser paying job, but with a better shift/conditions/breaks/work.

Now, it's all the other way around, I'm no longer in demand, as there're more temporary workers than temporary jobs. And yes, if you took every Polish worker out of the equation, I reckon it would revert back to how it was a couple of years ago. That's not Anti-Polish, it's just statement.

Saying that, without the amount of Poles here, and with some Brits prefering to be bone idle, a lot of shifts around the factories here would simply not have enough workers to cover the basics if the wasn't so many Polish willing to work, which could impact on local full time jobs. It happened last week at one factory I was at. They'd contracted 10 agency in to cover some work, of those 10 expected, only 5 showed up. The line had to be run at half speed. Costing the company profits...

So, yeah, ShelleyS, I agree. ;)
Liza 3 | 111
6 Nov 2007 #143
I unfortunately live in such a town... and I can't move away easily.

I have to admit I was surprised to learn that the UK only brought in the minimum wage in 1998 whereas it began in New Zealand in 1896 - more than a hundred years earlier. I also believe that the minimum wage is set too low to be realistic for those supporting a family. However that is not the fault of the Polish, but rather the British voter who has allowed the politicians.

As for those who are low skilled, and generally restricted to low paying jobs, what is stopping you from retraining? I doubt that any of you are stupid, so why not motivate yourself to learn new skills, to make you more valuable to an employer?

So why the hell do you think you have a right to have such a strong opinion about the English, now I understand why you are so negative

Sorry to disappoint you Shelley, but I have a five year work permit issued by the Home Office as Im a Highly Skilled Migrant possessing skills identified by the British Government as being highly desirable. The right for an opinion is given by the fact I pay high levels of taxes and NI contributions. I'm also entitled to vote in the UK.

The British actually work longer hours than anyone else in Europe - so again you are wrong - but being a foreigner it's quite believable that you haven't got all the facts.

The Annual work hours (source: OECD (2004), OECD in Figures, OECD, Paris. shows that workers in Great Britain work on average 1652 hours per annum; New Zealand 1767 hours and Poland 1984 hours. South Korea have the most recorded working hours, at 2390 hours per annum.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893
6 Nov 2007 #144
Maybe the advert you saw was for someone on the lesser rates????

Maybe they were looking for someone under 22, so it was quite a generous rate ;-)

Sorry to disappoint you Shelley, but I have a five year work permit issued by the Home Office as I’m a Highly Skilled Migrant possessing skills identified by the British Government as being ‘highly desirable’. The right for an opinion is given by the fact I pay high levels of taxes and NI contributions. I'm also entitled to vote in the UK.

I always find that people who big themselves up are rarely what they seem - but I'm sure your job is desirable by some :)

Im surprised you wanted to stay in such a country for so long, since the men are all drunkards that go to stag parties abroad, apparently the women are all so ugly British men have had to start taking Polish lessons...and we are lazy scroungers....

Oh and you keep banging on about retraining, which is a nice thought, but its not realistic for most since they have families to support, so its the old catch 22 - and where do you suggest these people go to retrain and who do you suggest pays for it?

Hmmm - your figures are out of date by 3 years, sugguest you find some new ones!

anyway Liza I would love to stop and chat all day but I'm far too busy in my highly desirable job :)
Frank 23 | 1,183
6 Nov 2007 #145
I have to admit I was surprised to learn that the UK only brought in the minimum wage in 1998 whereas it began in New Zealand in 1896 – more than a hundred years earlier

And whats the German minimum wage?.......eeeemmmmmm they aint got one! neither do a few other EU countries.

As ever its not wot you've got....but how you use it...hours as a total mean nothing, some countries 10/20/30% more productive per hour compared with the UK....presenteeism is a condition affecting many EU countries....people turn up to work ......but do feck all else!

In Ireland the Polish population are very well rehearsed in the hourly rates for all sorts of jobs, North and South..they have been very choosy and they challenge those offering less than the going rate, so in some respects they have put pressure on bosses to pay the correct wage......no doubt there are plenty of bad payer/bosses ( including Polish employers!)all the same!
postie 7 | 112
6 Nov 2007 #146
As for those who are low skilled, and generally restricted to low paying jobs, what is stopping you from retraining?

I could probably qualify as "low-skilled". Though in no way am I an idiot. I worked for almost 20 years for one company. I never thought I'd need a "skill" as it was what i liked doing and thought it would see me through to retirement. I've been on the agency since I got booted out of that job.

So, for me, yeah, retraining is a real possibility. Getting a training course on the other hand is nearly impossible. Around here, firstly, there isn't that much training going on. What training that is available is pretty poor. On top of that, if you're actually working, you tend to go to the back of the queue (or have to pay ludicrous fees), in favour of those who aren't working.

Many of those who end up on any worth-while course, are only doing the course because it keeps the Dole off their backs while they sit around scrounging some more, as they're then "in training" and off the Dole count. Then they use whatever skills they have learnt, to do some illegal work while carrying on claiming dole.

Personally, for me, I quite like low-skilled jobs. I'm not career minded, and work to live, rather than live to work. As long as I can pay my bills, I don't care what i do. This week I'm working in 2 factories, one putting leaflets into next weekends sunday newspapers magazine, dull and tedious work, but work. Later this week I'll be packing frozen pizzas.

In the mean-time, I'm learning Polish, as it enhances my life. Maybe I'll find a use for it, maybe it'll just be one of those things I've picked up and it'll never be of any economic use to me. But just because I'm piling leaflets into magazines, doesn't mean I'm not using my brain, I can do that without thinking... having a sheet of Polish words i want to learn next to where I work, passes the time and helps me improve myself.

anyway Liza I would love to stop and chat all day but I'm far too busy in my highly desirable job :)

Me too! LOL

This week I'm working in 2 factories, one putting leaflets into next weekends sunday newspaper magazines, dull and tedious work, but work. Later this week I'll be packing frozen pizzas.

Liza 3 | 111
6 Nov 2007 #147
I always find that people who big themselves up are rarely what they seem - but I'm sure your job is desirable by some :)

There is no need on my part to big myself up; to be granted a HSMP, you have to show that you have earning potential and skills desirable in the UK. I proved it, I got the HSMP granted. End of story.

Oh and you keep banging on about retraining, which is a nice thought, but its not realistic for most since they have families to support, so its the old catch 22 - and where do you suggest these people go to retrain and who do you suggest pays for it?

If someone really does want to better themselves, they will achieve it. Without giving you a hard luck story, I’ve dragged myself up by the bootstraps, working 45+ hour weeks and studying part time (which I paid for) while looking after my partner while he was sick, and if I can do it without any handouts, so can you or anyone else who wants a better life. If someone wants to progress in life, they need to invest time and money in themselves rather than making excuses and belittling those who are achieving more than they are, as the moaners and complainers merely look small minded and ignorant.

Im surprised you wanted to stay in such a country for so long, since the men are all drunkards that go to stag parties abroad, apparently the women are all so ugly British men have had to start taking Polish lessons...and we are lazy scroungers....

Not everyone in the UK is a lazy scrounger, and not everyone needs to blame someone else. A lot of the British I meet are hardworking, decent, honourable people. It’s just a few vocal moaners who prefer to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own lives.
sapphire 22 | 1,241
6 Nov 2007 #148
can people please stop looking up useless stats. and get on with the jobs they are being paid to do instead of wasting time at work discussing immigration issues.
Liza 3 | 111
6 Nov 2007 #149
Hmmm - your figures are out of date by 3 years, sugguest you find some new ones!

The data you quote comes from a report by the International Labour Organisation. The data contained within the report is from 2004.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893
6 Nov 2007 #150
Without giving you a hard luck story

So why did you?

can people please stop looking up useless stats. and get on with the jobs they are being paid to do instead of wasting time at work discussing immigration issues.

Foxy for a first time in a long time people are actually staying on topic, I would say that quite an achievement.


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