Question about Czynsz (Building maintenance fees/utilies) in Poland

I think this has to be written again: we don't have full picture. Without it we don't know why the bill is so high- if the management of the building is taking money for no reason or if there are reasons we don't know. We don't even know what type of building community it is.

Yes, true, I will have all details for you.

Input from other members is valuable as well, we are all curious how much "administration fees, cleaning fees and snow fees" are administrators allowed to get away with basically robbing it from owners each month.

multiply that with the number of apartments in your block of flats and you realize what treasures these administrators are doing, with little or no effort at all, every year

I mean what vast amounts of easy money these "administrators" are "making" by simply robbing from owners few hundreds every single month

therefore few THOUSANDS OF ZLOTYS EVERY YEAR

In most cases its not robbing. Its paying towards the upkeep and future repairs. Many things go into this fee such as paying for technical reviews, insurance and other shared costs. This includes paying to keep the staircase and/or lift clean and operational, reception, gutter/garden/carpark upkeep, insurance to cover third party accidents on the premises such as snow falling off roof onto people/cars etc. The add the cost of setting aside some money each month for future repairs. Every few decades the roof or elevation will need repairing/replacing and this comes at a huge cost, so money is set aside each month from the cynnsz, the part being called fundusz remontowy. It means you arent one day saddled with a huge repair bill, instead its collected over time.

Yes it is robbing.

"upkeep and future repairs" which I have never seen. "Give me every month 1,000 zl that is 12,000 zl per year, because
if ever will be needed any repairs, we will have few million zl in that fund" is total ******** and a straight out worst kind of scam,

that the kindness and naivety of polish people allow this scam to continue.

"Every few decades the roof or elevation will need repairing/replacing" this says everything.

If a block of flats has 200 apartments,

and this administrator multi millionaire collects 1,000 zl each month 12,000 zl per year, from 200 apartments is 2,400,000 zl per year,
which is in "every few decades" let's say very pesimistically only 25 years it makes
60,000,000 zl only collected from this rip-off "administration management bill"

Well, with 60,000,000 zl you build SEVERAL SMALLER BLOCKS OF FLATS, and not just fix a roof !

So I finally received the first 2 bills of "czynsz" for the apartemnt rented in Warsaw
(just very normal communist block, no valet, no bodyguards, no personal driver, nothing like that)

This is the "misteries" (actually scam ripoffs that make administrators multi-millionaires)
that they contain:

For the Month of September 2016

Koszty zarzadu CZ. WSP. = 406.34 zl
Zaliczka na remonty = 537.48 zl
Wywoz smieci = 37.00 zl

Total = 980.82 zl

For the Month of October 2016

Koszty zarzadu CZ. WSP. = 406.34 zl
Zaliczka na remonty = 537.48 zl
Wywoz smieci = 37.00 zl

Total = 980.82 zl

I'd be glad and thankful to hear your thoughts.

Correction:

These are the "misteries" (actually scam ripoffs that make administrators multi-millionaires)
that they contain.

I am not sure I understand the correct sense of these so-called "costs", and google translate didn't help much either

Can I just say, this is a really useful thread for anyone renting in Poland. Too many people just pay what they are told and don't shop around. I stayed in a flat once for 750PLN rent, but Czynsz was 800PLN. It was in a very old Kamienica and the heating/hot water was through a combi boiler (can't remember what they call them in Poland) so no heating or hot water included. I just put it down to the way things were.

Then I moved to another place, rent was 1000PLN and czynsz was 950PLN, but this covered hot water, heating, and you could see the people cleaning and repairing the building regularly. While it was more expensive, it meant a LOT less on other bills, and so in the bigger (and better) flat, we ended up paying either the same or less per month than the studio we were in before.

Don't get me wrong, it's tough being a renter in Poland, but it's important to shop around. It's in no way unique to Poland, here in Scotland I remember going to flat viewings where we were basically sat with other people begging for a flat and they had us at their advantage. Luckily I managed to find something through friends, and I would advise people stick a post on facebook if they are looking and have friends in the city.

OMG you are right. Either the building is in a serious need of general repairs or there is some serious ripoff.

ecsape that place as soon as possible.

In case you need translation:

Koszty zarzadu CZ. WSP. = 406.34 zl - this is for all things that are done in your building - like cleaning, check-ups, small reparations, costs of heating and electricity in the hall, and payment for "administration". If the building is big- the cost shouldn't be this much.

Zaliczka na remonty = 537.48 zl it's the fund for future reparations

Wywoz smieci = 37.00 zl - garbage disposal - I checked on website it's amount for 4 or more people)

Can you say if the "administracja" is spółdzielnia, or Wspólnota? (It doesn't matter for you, I'm just curious)

Marysienka, Koszty zarzadu CZ. WSP is exclusively only the salary of the "manager-administrator".

Water consumption, electricity, heating, gas bills all came separately, and I paid them already (about 350 zl in total)

Koszty zarzadu CZ. WSP is EXCLUSIVELY going in the manager's pockets ENTIRELY

And I underline again: there are zero repairs and zero workers for the last 2 months since I am here.

This money keep being collected just because naive polish people are used to paying them, they only go into the fat pockets of these managers, that is all

4 people or 4 apartments? Just a quick shot in the dark - does the owner maybe have other apartments in the same building and has the bills for all them sent to the one where the OP is?

I wouldn't put it past a Polish landlord to do something like that....

Alternately if this is an old communist blok - then maybe those who pay czynsz are paying for those who don't? That is I've heard of people just stopping payment of czynsz (and still living the building for years) maybe the cost of the freeloaders is pushing up the price?

As anyone can imagine, it is not the 37 zl part that is bothersome

But the

Koszty zarzadu CZ. WSP. = 406.34 zl
Zaliczka na remonty = 537.48 zl

every month part that is bothersome.

Let's not avoid the elephant in the room, guys, please

Thank you all

What can we do? Everybody agrees it's high (though older buildings usually have higher czynsz). How full is the building? If there's lots of empty apartments that could maybe also drive up the czynsz for people living there...

But we don't have telepathy to know what's going on withthe administration and you don't know Polish so you're kind of left without good sources of info.

Don't you have a Polish friend that could go to the administration and ask exactly what's covered in those high bills?

Short of having access to administration we can't tell you much more than we ave already.

Business is Business, If you can't afford your accomodation find somewhere cheaper.

It's not about affording.

It's about the fact that owner lied in all his interactions with me.

We signed a contract in german language only, where there was not even once mentioned any "administration" and "future repairments" bills to be paid by me.

Because the contract is in german language, I very much doubt he registered it anywhere.

What are my options, realistically?

Thank you

I'm sorry I must have missed a word or two- I meant cost of heating and electicity in common areas- halls, staircases etc. But it's not an issue here. The cost is very high, if I were owner of the apartment I would start investigating why. As I said maybe the administration is ripping off people, maybe there are other issues you (and we) are not aware of.

Your problem is not with administration. It is with your landlord. He misinformed you. If he considered this a part of "bills" he should have told you. But the main question is- what does your contract say? Is it for a specific time period? does it specify how you can terminate it? Do you have any proof that landlord didn't tell you about those fees?

Contract says that tenant pays for gas, water and electricity and that's all. no "administration" bills, no "future repairments" bills, no "heating of the staircases" ******** that it is not even happening anyway at all

Landlord did not write anywhere about those "administration" bills and "future repairments" bills, what proof do I need if they are not written anywhere at all,

but he wants me to pay them?

This is absurd

well if you have explicitly said what you have to pay in your contract, that means you have proof he didn't tell you about this bill. that is a starting point.

As I said before - there are two issues- 1 why is the bill so high? and 2) why didn't your landlord tell you and how to get out of the situation.

I'm pretty sure now that the option that you don't pay this bill, but stay in your apartment is impossible. I don't know if investigating further why the bill is so high could help you in any way.

you need to consider- if you want to move out or if all the costs of that aparment are on the acceptable level (compared to costs of other compareable apartments). I don't know Warsaw renting market, or your situation so I can't help you. what about, when you take in account losing deposit you paid.

What are terms of termination in the contract. Is it for a certain time, or without stating for how long?.

Then what's the problem? If other payments are not included in the contract, why do you care that your landlord wants you to pay them?

The problem is that somewhere in the contract/negotiations the question of czynsz must have been mentioned.
In your position I would go to the Admin office and ask about the charges.
Many years ago, when I rented in Warsaw, I had to pay DOUBLE what the owner of the flat would have paid (for czynsz) because I was a tenant in the flat. The administrators almost expect that any 'tenants' would do more damage than the actual owners. This is only an angle that you could investigate. You must go to the admin office and ask.

As regards the contract - it is almost not worth the paper it is written on.

If she hasn't done it yet she's probably never going to. I'm not sure what she expects anyone here to tell her....

We already established several times that the landlord is dishonest as hell (didn't register the contract anywhere, he lied about the area of the flat commiting fraud, he lied about the bills amounts, he lied about the bills, he brought bills that were not even for this flat, etc etc) and he's trying to mug maximum money he can

milawi: "If other payments are not included in the contract, why do you care that your landlord wants you to pay them?"

well, because it is a conflictual situation, and I am not used to such situations.

in my country we are peaceful people, and we are not used to this type of eastern european scammers fraudsters (as this Warszawa landlord)

i'm sorry that you are in a bad situation, and we really try to help. But you keep asking wrong questions and saying things that may anger people.

(in which world Poland is eastern European but Slovenia is not??)

Back to reality - I don't know what your status in Poland is, but if your stay in Poland is otherwise legal, and you have a written contract you shouldn't be in any trouble with authorities. But you need help. You need someone that will look at the papers, at the situation and help you, not online but in person. Someone that you will trust enough to tell everything, because we don't have a full picture. Some things don't add up - Like where the hell did you find 90m2 apartment in a commie block - I didn't know those existed.

And she keeps ignoring the best advice (go to the administration and ask questions)


IIRC it's around 62 meters but still.... that's huge for a Warsaw commie building.

She is stuck at the "it's so unfair!" stage (people here agree that something is up) but seems to want us to fix it which we can't (especially since she tends to not give important information).

I gave all important information, and polish people tend to try to find justifications for anything, it looks like.

Americans have told me straight : "This is a case where the owner committed fraud, and promised things in written contract which are not true in reality,

you must get lawyers"

Polish people have tried to defend the lying and fraudster owner, and insist that I should pay imaginary costs which ARE NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN THE CONTRACT,.

Well then shy don't I pay the university education also of the son of the owner, it's also a cost not written in the contract!

then why don't I also pay the university education also of the son of the owner, it's also just a cost not written in the contract, the same like "administration costs and future repairments costs" !

mafketis: asking questions at administration is not my business.

in the contract it is specified very clearly that the only extra costs I must pay are gas, electricity and Internet, nothing else

asking questions at administration will only make me angry, and it's not my business at all, as they are costs
that are not required by any law and by any contract to be paid by me!

asking questions at administration is the same as asking questions at a helicopters factory - not my place, nothing to do with me