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What do you pay in rent/mortgage in Poland?


delphiandomine 85 | 17,265    
19 Jun 2012  #91
The people you are arguing with seem to know what they are talking about, unlike you Milky:-

What he means is "20 times Mar...Milky's salary"
peterweg 36 | 2,323    
  19 Jun 2012  #92
8 and a half times salary is about the same as the UK

Thats not correct, the UK is more like 5 times., historically its around 3.5 and at the bottom of the crash in 1995 it was 2.7 in London.

It has never been 8 in the UK, although London is approaching it again

guardian.co.uk/money/2012/may/27/first-time-buyers-priced-out-london-housing-market
Harry    
19 Jun 2012  #93
Source?

But from the site you link to:#

Home ownership £200,000 cheaper than lifetime of renting, study finds
Barclays researchers says figure is a conservative estimate and does not factor in high inflation or resale value

Young people locked out of home ownership will spend nearly £200,000 extra over a lifetime of renting rather than buying a house, according to research.

Barclays' calculations show that the costs of buying, paying the mortgage on and maintaining an average home valued at about £160,000 today will total £429,000 over 50 years. A tenant would typically pay £623,000 in rent for a similar property over that time.

The gap does not count the potential sale value of the purchased property. The high starting hurdles of deposits, stamp duty and legal fees mean many first-time buyers cannot take advantage.

guardian

But the is "median" gross annual salary, according to ASHE, in 2010 was £20,801.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8151355.stm

My maths are not very good but I'd say that £160,000 is fairly close to eight times £20,801 and nowhere near five times £20,801.
milky 13 | 1,657    
19 Jun 2012  #94
So how many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in Poland??
delphiandomine 85 | 17,265    
20 Jun 2012  #95
How many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in the UK in a comparable area to Poland?

You can't compare run-down urban wastelands in the UK to nice suburban locations in Poland.
bullfrog 6 | 604    
20 Jun 2012  #96
bullfrog: nope, the economics are not the same

And? is that all you can offer? I am happy to read what you have to say.

Here are some details of why the economics are not the same:

1. Cost of buying in Poland (notary fee, valuation) are at least twice higher as in the UK
2. The cost of variable rates loans is much higher in Poland than in the UK: 3 months WIBOR stands over 5%, whereas 3 months GBP LIBOR is below 1%,

Last but not least, being a tenant in Poland is far more comfortable than in the UK: in Poland, like in most of continental Europe, laws are skewed towards protecting the tenant, whereas in the UK the landlord gets the upper hand
gdyniaguy 1 | 282    
20 Jun 2012  #97
Not at all true. This only applies if the landlord will register you at his address.. I was fleeced by an ex landlord in Poland who wouldn't have had a leg to stand on in the UK. In the UK there is also deposit protection and it's incredably hard to remove bad tenents without going through the courts.
Avalon 4 | 1,068    
20 Jun 2012  #98
1. Cost of buying in Poland (notary fee, valuation) are at least twice higher as in the UK

I disagree. Having sold several flats here I included the notary fees in the cost. I paid this and it was norally around 400 GBP, roughly the same as in the UK. Notary's charges can vary, dependant on how many times you use them.

2. The cost of variable rates loans is much higher in Poland than in the UK: 3 months WIBOR stands over 5%, whereas 3 months GBP LIBOR is below 1%,

The rates you give for the UK mortgage are based on "tracker" mortgages which are usually "fixed" for a 2-5 years period. The banks are not offering these any

more because of the credit crises. Bank of England rate is 0.5%, yet NEW UK mortgages are around 6-7%. There are deals to be had but these involve higher payments and are for a fixed period, which, when it expires will see the mortgage payments jump up considerably unless able to re-mortgagee with all the costs involved.

The discussion was about costs, not tenant security. I think you will find that if a home owner in the UK defaults on the mortgage, it takes the bank/building society 6-12 months to obtain an eviction order, especially if there are young children in the house. the lenders will always give a certain amount of time to sort out lower payments and all avenues explored before eviction take place.
gdyniaguy 1 | 282    
20 Jun 2012  #99
I know a young family who are being evicted by the bank because the owner didn't have a 'buy to let' mortgage. They have been given 1 months notice.
Avalon 4 | 1,068    
20 Jun 2012  #100
This does not make sense unless you add more information. Do you mean that they sub-let the property with informing the lender? In which case this would be fraud. Not eviction for non-payment.
milky 13 | 1,657    
20 Jun 2012  #101
How many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in the UK in a comparable area to Poland?

Ok So, how many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in nice suburban Poland??
and
how many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in nice suburban UK/Ireland??

Ok So, how many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in nice rural Poland??
and
how many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in nice rural UK/Ireland??
Harry    
  20 Jun 2012  #102
My mother lives in nice rural England. The average four-bedroomed house in her neck of the woods (according to home.co.uk) is a shade over £450,000. I make that some 22 times the gross annual salary as linked to above. Given that the average gross monthly wage in Poland is 3,617.98 (source) and that makes an annual wage of 43,415.76zl, perhaps you can find places in rural Poland where 955,146.72zl (i.e. 22 times that annual wage) will not buy the average four-bedroomed house?
jon357 65 | 13,988    
  20 Jun 2012  #103
how many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in nice suburban UK/Ireland??

I come from an economically depressed ex-coal mining town in Yorkshire. Very typical for much of the UK. Average property prices there (according to home.co.uk) are £138,000. £209,000 for a detached house. The average salary in that borough in 2011 was £19,000, before tax. So an average home is 7.2 times more than an average salary.

Bear in mind that someone on that average salary would find it very hard to get a mortgage in the first place.

The situation is better in Poland.
peterweg 36 | 2,323    
  20 Jun 2012  #104
But the is "median" gross annual salary, according to ASHE, in 2010 was £20,801

You are mixing up median and average.

The average wage is nearer 30K and the average house price is around 160k

If your figures are true the a maximum wage multiple mortgage would be no where near enough to cover an average mortgage. Most are 4.5x wage maximum lending.
jon357 65 | 13,988    
  20 Jun 2012  #105
Median is one of the three forms of average. Don't assume mean is the same as average. And for obvious reasons, the median is the most reliable figure to use.
peterweg 36 | 2,323    
  20 Jun 2012  #106
yet NEW UK mortgages are around 6-7%. There are deals to be had but these involve higher payments and are for a fixed period,

Thats miles out. 6-7% is not normal in the UK

SVR is around 4-5%
thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2111160/As-lenders-hike-SVR-mortgage-rates-time-bale-out.html

Discounts for fixed periods knock this back to around 3%

You can get a 10 year fix for 5.1%

britannia.co.uk/_site/channels/mortgage/products/10yr-fixed.html

or 5 years at 4.7%
britannia.co.uk/_site/channels/mortgage/products/10yr-fixed.html

The average four-bedroomed house

Isn't an average house and that figure isn't an average wage or an average wage for the area,
jon357 65 | 13,988    
20 Jun 2012  #107
You can get a 10 year fix for 5.1%

Assuming you can get a mortgage in the first place, which many can't in the UK. In Poland, they still hand them out like confetti.
OP FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,886    
  20 Jun 2012  #108
You can get a 10 year fix for 5.1%

but who is polishing off their mortgage in 10 years....or 5 for that matter?
pip 11 | 1,660    
20 Jun 2012  #109
[quote=milky]Ok So, how many times the average wage is a 3-4 bedroom house in nice suburban Poland??/quote]
It doesn't matter. People who make the average wages in Poland don't own houses unless they live far outside of a city. Houses owned within the city limits or suburbs are owned by those who make more than average.
peterweg 36 | 2,323    
  20 Jun 2012  #110
but who is polishing off their mortgage in 10 years....or 5 for that matter?

Thats the maximum time span for a fix you can get. Not many people sign up for that long.

Houses owned within the city limits or suburbs are owned by those who make more than average.

I don't think prices have anything to do with how much people earn as they didn't really pay for them in the first place
krakow 1 | 42    
  20 Jun 2012  #111
Christ, Im laughing my arse off, at some of the naiviety, and also at some of the blinkered figures, offhand stats......FFS, I really dont think ANY bank would try & run figures in an article to make it non viable to have a mortgage!! lol!.....

Anyroads......& I WILL go into detail.....regarding thte true state of affairs outwith the snowhead expats, who haven't spent anytime outside Expat pubs, & the end of the Tram tracks.

Lodz, Poznan, Warsaw, & my beloved Krakow....I live in the South of Poland........for many years, before EU ascension.......I have to travel Poland wide , and have done every weekend for 9 odd years...I interact with Polands "Young crowd" 22-30, as a Professional DJ (which means I earn a living from doing this!) I speak to normal average Poles from ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, every weekend, in all manners of places, I KNOW what is the average income, for an average person. I also dont need to be referenced to the WBJ for pants political nonce, concerning incubated Anglo American guesses at the state of affairs for a general Pole's fiscal state of affairs.

The below chart is in retort of the "blinkered School teachers" (and I apologise for the generalisation here)

This is a cost of living rundown I did for my brother about 2 yrs ago.........bear with me here......Ill get to the CURRENT COST of Housing in South Poland at the end!>

Average wage in Britain (Outside London/Main Cities) 1500gbp per month (after tax)

Average wage in Poland (Outside Warsaw/Main Cities) 1500Zlotys (after Tax).

(Semi & Unskilled Occupations are included here as the average.............NOT BLOATED LONDON / WARSAW figures )

So we have an exact same "income level" between both countries as a starting block . ok!

Lets go Shopping ! with an imaginary list!, nothing personal incidentally, just random, but relevant to most of us I think.

Jar of Nescafe Gold Blend 100gm - UK 2.99 Poland 16.99

Huggies Newborn Nappies Disposable UK 3.99 Poland 22.99

Nestles Cheerios 100gm UK 1.99 Poland 10.99 zls

Pair of Mens Jeans (not Designer) (Highstreet) UK 30gbp (Lee) Poland 260zls (Big Star)

10 yr Old (2000) Honda Accord 1.8i VTEC SE - UK 2,495 gbp Poland 20,000 zls

Hotel 3 star Majorca family of 4 Holiday - UK 1400gbp Poland 10,000 zls (Brochure Holiday type deal)
Monthly Flat Rental -Modern Renovated 2 Bedroom Flat --- UK 450gbp. p/m Poland 2500zls p/m

Heating Bill for above flat in December (Gas Boiler type of heating) keeping the flat at a steady 21C overnight.
UK 100gbp Poland 700zls (This is With NO subsidy from a housing association. This is the REAL cost of gas heating in Poland!.

Family Home 3 Bedroom (10 yr old Detached Home with Garden)
UK 450,000gbp Poland 1.6Million zlotys. (based on Krakow / Oxford)

Average Car Loan interest Rate - Homeowner loan borrowing 20,000 (GBP & Zloty) over 5 years. (THESE FIGURES WERE CORRECT ON THE DAY OF MY APPLICATION for this results test.

UK

Payment per month £403.75 Total charge for credit £4,225 Total amount you repay £24,225

POLAND

Payment per month 660.34 zls Total charge for credit 15,400 zls Total amount you repay 35,400 zls

I hope now you can understand things better, and Ill keep this note for the Polish Tourist Board summer advertising campaign! and maybe also for the Xenophobics among us, to get a clue, as to why there are so many Poles in the UK....... lol.

(All stats done using Tescos/Rightmove UK/ Car Trader./MoneySupermarket.........are all 100% accurate at time of going to press ;-).

And about the car above, the RELATIVE COST IS MASSIVELY HIGHER!. The cost to actually buy the "10 yr old family car". is really the following amount.

UK £3,145 ( 2x your salary)

Poland 35,400 zls ( 24 x your salary)

with 1500 as your budget.....you do the maths, it's called an economic imbalance.

House Prices currently in the south of Poland...(Malpolska).....Gorlice/Nowy Sacz area.........Detatched House, 10 arow (acres) 220Sqm Living space Price currently at 500,000zls (If they house is relatively modernised, if renovations are needed (380,000zls)

So in current climate.......as of today.. 18-6-2012.......and by my simple maths. 18000zls per annum (1500x12)/ 500,000 = 27 times your salary to buy a 4 bedroom Family home in the South of Poland.

the above is to let the others takes their blinkers off....put their Amex away and see that Poland is NO holiday camp concerning living costs & Property ownership. Most people here CANNOT afford, or DO NOT reach the Banks criteria. The Country is f@cked because of unregulated morons in government letting people with NO professional experience become "Nieurochomosci" capitalising in on the housing boom, which ultimately has made it Imposssible for a normal Pole to EVER think about Home ownership.

They Dont come close, in earnings vs Capital repayments. Every bank in Poland wants 100% of the Mortgage amount back in revenue, over the term of the loan. So If you want a 500,000 Zls House here, You are paying Back 1,000,000 zls over 25 yrs. How do I know,??? cos Ive just visited over 18 lenders in Malpolska regarding this matter in the last 2 weeks. NONE were offering 100% mortgages.

So by my calculations on this subject, on an 80% offered mortgage, A Person needs 100,000zls in CASH to get a mortgage,, which means he has to work for 6yrs, saving evry single zloty he has earned in that 6 yrs, to just have the deposit. Even if he qualified, How many of even the EXPATs here have that kind of cash lying about, never mind a normal Pole?.
Harry    
20 Jun 2012  #112
Family Home 3 Bedroom (10 yr old Detached Home with Garden)
UK 450,000gbp Poland 1.6Million zlotys. (based on Krakow / Oxford)

Just to pick one 'fact' you offer: home.co.uk/guides/house_prices.htm?location=oxford

three-bedroom house is £308,191 mean and £281,000 median, so your price is some 50% higher.

Stick to the mixer mate.
OP FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,886    
20 Jun 2012  #113
How many of even the EXPATs here have that kind of cash lying about, never mind a normal Pole?

you mean to say that the avg salary of poles isn't......isn't......like 3,500 net.....like the internet says?!!! impossible.

you're a crackpot to most on here, but good to see someone fighting back the bull$hit on here about how Poland is the land of plenty.
krakow 1 | 42    
  20 Jun 2012  #114
Just to pick one 'fact' you offer

Learn to read Harry!.....This was done 2 yrs ago m8!.....Stick to correcting grammar mistakes or something else less menial.

I like to see you disprove my "facts" m8.........your arrogance regarding knowledge, when bracketing my "facts" reeks of self worth! What I wrote down for my brother 2 yrs ago (If you bothered to read) was a comparative estimate.

Btw Its irrelevant you didnt contribute, and most noteworthy, you tried to shoot me down. Sad? as all I did was relay self experience. what about yours m8?..........Ill stick to my mixer, & to my intense International touring schedule m8.......certainly beats sitting in a classroom.
pip 11 | 1,660    
20 Jun 2012  #115
who says Poland is the land of plenty?

fact is- if you earn 3500 pln per month than you shouldn't even think about buying a house. A one bedroom flat is the target. Expecting anything more is unrealistic. My world is not the land of the expats. All of our friends are Polish and they all make very good incomes. They all own their own flats or houses and work white collar jobs.

Nobody has ever claimed that there is no poverty here. Obviously there is- as there is in every country in the world. But- Poland is not following the recession like the rest of Europe.

People are still buying homes and other big ticket items. Companies are still investing here- perhaps I hear about it more because my husband knows who is coming and going in the market. Loads of German companies while the Americans have taken a back seat.

Poland is still considered a good place to invest and all the companies that come here are hiring local workers because they are well educated and cheaper- but by Polish standards they still earn a good wage.
krakow 1 | 42    
  20 Jun 2012  #116
Cant you see the literary humour on what you posted?...........You live in the WBJ dream m8...soak up your figures.......by all means. Me? I just like to talk to real people,concerning real fiscal problems, not read inflated self journalism, driven by media sponsorship and contractual obligations. If your so sure about the quality of the Economic journalism offer nowadays, and currently believe the statistics you read.

I stated cold hard facts, you chose to get personal by immature remarks. I wonder who looks foolish inmost other peoples eyes m8, all I did was try to contribute to the OP...........What did you try & contribute?. quoting hyped media, and believing the recent global economic crisis was just an accident.

Hmmm, Id suggest you get a broader tabloid, like the The SUN!.

Harry I run one of the biggest Entertainment agencies in Poland m8. I have clients ranging from Heineken, L'oreal, Versace, to Biedronka & Castorama,TVN, Radio RMF.................. Dont think for one minute, "Im only a Dj" thats my extremely well paid hobby. I know the score m8, Ive been coming to Poland since 1997 - Living here since 2002.........so dont take me for a mug m8.
teflcat 5 | 1,034    
20 Jun 2012  #117
How do I know,??? cos Ive just visited over 18 lenders in Malpolska regarding this matter in the last 2 weeks. NONE were offering 100% mortgages.

Why don't you just buy a house with cash?
krakow 1 | 42    
  20 Jun 2012  #118
I dont need to, It is for a friend coming over from the UK, who is purchasing a 2nd Home...........simples!. I am already Mortgage free. & I may add I am extremely thankful for that position, as I would not have been in the UK!. Even after renovating the properties.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,265    
  20 Jun 2012  #119
Pair of Mens Jeans (not Designer) (Highstreet) UK 30gbp (Lee) Poland 260zls (Big Star)

Not a fair comparison. Big Star use well known names (especially Doda) to do their advertising, whereas Lee do...hmm...nothing.

Family Home 3 Bedroom (10 yr old Detached Home with Garden)
UK 450,000gbp Poland 1.6Million zlotys. (based on Krakow / Oxford)

That's a crap comparison, not least because 3 bedroom houses don't cost 1.6 million in Poland.

So in current climate.......as of today.. 18-6-2012.......and by my simple maths. 18000zls per annum (1500x12)/ 500,000 = 27 times your salary to buy a 4 bedroom Family home in the South of Poland.

Yes, because people in the UK really have 10 acres of land as "normal". Given that people were flogging their back gardens in the South of England for ridiculous amounts, I find it pretty damn unlikely that most poeple have 10 acres to spare. I saw that the Middleton's are buying a 5 bedroom house with 10 acres, actually...the price? A cool 5 million pounds.

They Dont come close, in earnings vs Capital repayments.

Why would anyone offer 100% mortgages in the current economic climate?

Sorry, but when you start comparing like for like, then we might take you seriously.
OP FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,886    
  20 Jun 2012  #120
Not a fair comparison. Big Star use well known names (especially Doda) to do their advertising, whereas Lee do...hmm...nothing.

A pair of Levi's in Poland run about 300zl. In the USA, $35. Lee, maybe $28-$30.

Hey krakow, have you told us what you pay in mortgage? Just trying to keep it on topic!


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