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Which country is better SPAIN or POLAND


Papo de Luz
16 Jul 2021 #61
Lol Peru and Bolivia didnt exist either when Spain forbade cabbibalism there. Just a bunch of tribes living in the Stone Age. So the present day inhabitants of those countries ought to stay there instead of fleeing like a plague to Spain. The karma trash you say is such an hypocrite double standard.

So according to the karma theory just because Spain annexed Western Sahara now the Moroccoans, the couutry that opresses Western Sahara according to UN resolutions, have the right to come to Spain as free riders and steal the Spanish money. It is is the same as saying that just because Hitler killed many Poles now Spain people will migrate en masse to Germany. In fact the are way more Turks in Germany.
pawian 178 | 15,893
16 Jul 2021 #62
st a bunch of tribes living in the Stone Age.

Was it a sufficient pretext to turn them into slaves and kill millions?

resent day inhabitants of those countries ought to stay there

No, they have the right to take back what their ancestors were deprived of. Simple.

the Moroccoans have the right to come to Spain as free riders

Yes! Exactly. That`s the curse of the white man!

because Hitler killed many Poles now Spain people will migrate en masse to Germany

Your dots completely don`t connect into a straight line now.
Papo the Luz
16 Jul 2021 #63
yeah, it was the only way to stop the Aztecs from doing human sacrifices. Like the Americans bombed Hiroshima to stope Japan imperialism, the Spanish were with no alternative than imposing civilisations by means of military power.

Their ancestors who knows what would think about their lazy and drunkards offspring, maybe they would prefer to stay in the Spanish empire instead of the failed independent republics.

LOL, now my dots don't connect? What dots connect Western Sahara to Morocco? No more than Spain to Poland. So following your ill reasoning Spanish people would revenge the nazi butchering of poles in some karma fashion like migrating to Germany and leeching. Oh wait , it's the Turks that do that because maybe according to Karma it's the Turks that are more similar to the Poles.
pawian 178 | 15,893
16 Jul 2021 #64
imposing civilisations by means of military power.

It reminds me of one of the slogans of Stalin`s regime: With iron hand we shall lead mankind to happinness!!

Let`s be honest - Spanish conquistadors didn`t conquer native territories to spread civilisation - their main objective was gold and other valuables. And they were ready to kill millions to get it. Theret was a veritable Holocaust for native tribes under Spanish patronage;. Is it a surprise that today`s ancestors of the oppressed deem it right to demand compensation??

And Spain has to offer them compensation for her sinful deeds. Simple.

What dots connect Western Sahara to Morocco?

Stop twisting. Western Sahara belonged to Spain until 1976.
Papo the Luz
16 Jul 2021 #65
So where does your chain of karma justice stops? The Romans didn't conquer Spain to spread civilisation, yet I don't see Spaniards killing and raping in Italy like the latin americans do.

Indeed WS belonged as a province to Spain, not a colony. But that's not the question, what I mean is that the Moroccoans even though are Muslims have no right to come to Spain just because WS was part of Spai until 1976. They share religion and nothing else, they are enemies right now. Do you understand?
pawian 178 | 15,893
16 Jul 2021 #66
The Romans didn't conquer Spain Spaniards in Italy .

Stop twisting, I already said it;. Romans and today`s Italy are two different things. Spain has been Spain for over 1000 years now, Everything what Spaniards have done during that time counts as Spanish activity.
Papo the Luz
16 Jul 2021 #67
South and Central indigenous tribes and today Peru and Bolivia are two different things as well ;-)
pawian 178 | 15,893
16 Jul 2021 #68
The blood of millions who perished under Spanish rule doesn`t realise such nuances. People in Peru or Bolivia know the tragic history of their forefathers and they are aware who the culprit was - the Spanish. Now by coming to Spain and demanding compensation they are retrieving what they duly deserve,

I am really amazed you don`t realise such simple things.
Papo the Luz
16 Jul 2021 #69
"Spain has been Spain over 1000 years"

"When the Muslims invaded Spain it really didn't exist, just the Iberian Peninsula"

LOL. Make up your mind, disgusting commie.
pawian 178 | 15,893
16 Jul 2021 #70
I see you support the Holocaust of native tribes. If you lived during WW2 times, Nazis could hire you to operate gas chambers, you suit that role perfectly.
Papo the Luz
16 Jul 2021 #71
Lies and more lies. Under the Spanish empire no more indigenous people died than with the ruthless Aztecs.

In fact they were far less, to the point that many historians agree that the Aztec empire was bound to demographic collapse before the providential arrival of the Spanish who stopped their bloody sacrifices. For the most part indigenous people in America welcomed them, those who died what due to natural expansion of diseases like sifilis that where unheard of there. Now their immune system is much stronger thanks to Spain. LOL.
pawian 178 | 15,893
16 Jul 2021 #72
Under the Spanish empire no more indigenous people died than with the ruthless Aztecs.

Prove this lie!!!

Now their immune system is much stronger thanks to Spain. LOL.

You bloody murderer! You even laugh at their tragedy??
Millions had to die first before natives acquired immunity to Spanish-imported diseases. And diseases were spread on purpose by the Spanish!! To kill as many as possible. Do you remember how Spaniards offered measles-infected clothes and blankets to native tribes?
Oathbreaker - | 205
16 Jul 2021 #73
@pawian
Bacteria and such weren't known about until XIX century. It was discovered by accident at a hospital (in Austria?) when the mortality was high since people taking care of newborns and corpses didn't wash their hands. A lot of infants died from contact with corpses by the workers at the hospital. Until then, people thought it was the stench that did it.

Remember that modern microscopes and health science wasn't developed at the time. So them doing it on purpose is... Well... Highly unlikely...
AntV 3 | 252
17 Jul 2021 #74
@Oathbreaker

I wouldn't say that lack of microscopes and lack of development in health sciences meant the Spaniards and other early American explorers did not know that disease was infecting the Indian population. We know they were well aware of the spread and ravage of diseases like smallpox and measles.

diseases were spread on purpose by the Spanish!!

The proof for the claim of the Spanish purposely spreading disease is pretty weak. I'm unaware of any well-vetted credible historical claims that the Spanish were offering infected blankets. There is some proof that the Brits tried...once. And, there is no proof it was effective. history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets

Spanish conquistadors didn`t conquer native territories to spread civilisation

That's undeniable for the vast majority. But, there were those who did want to spread civilization and Christianity. You can argue whether or not that's just or noble, but there certainly were a good number of early settler/explorers from Europe who thought it to be just and noble.

Is it a surprise that today`s ancestors of the oppressed...demand compensation??

It's not like the native peoples were not brutal in their treatment of other native population. The Aztec were and they oppressed other conquered natives. history.com/topics/ancient-americas/aztecs

So, if Spain is to compensate for something that happened 500 years ago, shouldn't Aztec descendants be held accountable to compensate other Mesoamreican descendants whose ancestors were conquered by the Aztec? If you can even determine who is descendants of who--I mean, there has been so much inter-marrying and intermingling of all those peoples over the past 500 years, it's an absurdity to think you can even identify who comes from who: oftentimes, you'll find in a single Mexican who has a cocktail of Euro and Mesoamerican blood and DNA running through their bodies.
pawian 178 | 15,893
18 Jul 2021 #75
Ant, very deep and cultural elucidation. I agree with everything except the last paragraph.

So, if Spain is to compensate for something that happened 500 years ago,

No, it only started 500 years ago but continued for centuries. Do you remember when the last Inca Rising took place? 250 years after the Spanish conquest.

Or another thing: which language do local people speak today in ex-Spanish Latin America?

Aztec descendants be held accountable to compensate other Mesoamreican

No. Although we know that Incas or Aztecs were developed societies and had interesting cultures and amazing inventions, according to our European and white man`s standards, both today and at the time, they were savages. The Spanish deemed themselves on a much higher level, besides they were Christians and claimed they came to bring civilisation to those savages. Soon it turned out that conquistadors and later their followers who ruled the colonies were much more brutal savages than the natives. It happened so that Spanish brutality overshadowed the brutality of local peoples.

Besides, Aztec or Inca states were abolished and ceased to exist. While Spain has been sound and safe since Columbus made his discoveries. It is even still a monarchy, just like 500 years ago!

The monument to Pizzaro who massacred Incas stands in his home town.

Do you understand now that demanding compensation from Aztec descendants would be highly unjust? While doing it in reference to today`s Spain which is the continuation of the old Spain certainly is just. That is why illegal or legal immigrants from former Spanish colonies have all rights to come and expect decent treatment and comfortable conditions. Isn`t it simple?

Hough!

PS. We didn`t talk about African slaves exploited in Spanish colonies yet, Their descendants also have the same rights as native tribes`.
mafketis 30 | 9,488
18 Jul 2021 #76
which language do local people speak today in ex-Spanish Latin America?

Lots... in addition to official Spanish lots of indigenous languages and cultures are thriving (far more so than in NAmerica) there are also immigrant languages (preservation of which tends to vary from country to country, I remember my university in the US had a subscription to an Argentinian journal published in Ukrainian...) and new languages (creoles) not to mention sign languages (which probably number in the dozens).

The establishment of Spanish in the Americas though all levels of life is one of the most remarkable linguistic facts in recorded history - in many ways much more interesting than the spread of English since it was less tied to purely.... economic considerations and more deeply culturally based.

(In Africa the spread of Swahili over the last few hundred years is similarly remarkable).
AntV 3 | 252
20 Jul 2021 #77
Do you understand now that demanding compensation from Aztec descendants would be highly unjust?

Yes, I agree. I also think it's highly unjust to demand compensation from the Spanish, as I find it unjust for Jews to demand compensation from Poland, Poland to demand compensation from Germany, Libyan or Nubians to demand compensation from Egypt, etc., etc., etc..

This modern-day call for reparations is nothing short of extortion. The oppressors and oppressed of the past are gone. Assigning the sins of the father to the current generation is not only unjust, for the current generation did not commit the oppression, but it's also nearly impossible to distinguish who are the descendants of whom. Generations of mobility, intermingling, and intermarriage have made it moot.

Additionally, the reality is that the current generation are participating members of the culture they live in. A Mexican who is a descendant of an Aztec knows nothing of Aztecan culture and would be lost in it--he is Mexican, he knows Mexican culture because he has lived his life in it. Granted, some may have some kind of romantic idea of living an Aztecan life, but it's merely romantic--if they were ignorant of any Aztecan origin they wouldn't know the difference. It's like if I was to say I'm culturally German (from what I know about my family I'm 75% German ethnicity), although lived my whole life in America--it'd be purely romantic, I'm culturally 100% American.

To speak specifically about the Spanish and Mesoamericans, the Spanish monarchy of today is not the same as it was in the 16th and 17th centuries. It doesn't hold the power today as it did then. It wouldn't be the Spanish crown paying reparations, it would be the Spanish taxpayers. If you consider that just, please explain.

The gold and riches extracted from the Americas by the Spanish aren't hidden away in some account that has been accruing interest for centuries, either. The 10% the conquistadors were obligated to gift the crown was mostly disposed of quickly to pay off debts and fund their wars in Europe.

And, to end this diatribe (as grand and supremely poignant as it is), reparations/compensation/whatereveryawannacallit will not solve any problems or create harmony. It will further divide people and create enmity and discord. It will not bring about justice, accord, and unity.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,891
21 Jul 2021 #78
Those comparisons with Nazi-Germany really make not much sense, the spanish policies in Overseas was vastly different to the usual colonial policies.

The main difference was surely racial, mixing was not only allowed but even encouraged to entrench the spanish culture/religion/language there (conquistadores and priests where all men....soon there were alot of little mestizos running around!).

So there was never an enforced segregation or a brutal apartheid policy because of skin color or heritage in the Central and South Americas...you need to keep that in mind before comparing Spain with the Nazi-Germans or the british Empire!

(Of course even today those with lighter skin = more european blood are somewhat higher up the societal ladder than those with darker skin = more indian or african blood, but this is a thing everywhere in the world)
AntV 3 | 252
21 Jul 2021 #79
I'm not comparing Spain with Nazi Germany or one type of oppression with another (perceived or real). My point is that current generations have no claim to redress for the oppression of their ancestors that occurred generations ago, whether that be the historical oppression based on race, religion, creed, ideology, or what have you. The call for reparations neither compensates those who have been wronged or solves an historical injustice. It only causes further injustice (those who had no hand in oppressing paying those who were never oppressed), discord, and division.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,891
21 Jul 2021 #80
You preacher - I choir!

But as a German myself and hence direct successor of the Nazis and the german colonialists/imperialists its not that easy....they just won't stop knocking and demanding!
Novichok 1 | 2,896
21 Jul 2021 #81
It only causes further injustice (those who had no hand in oppressing paying those who were never oppressed), discord, and division.

Now I know for sure you are an American.
AntV 3 | 252
21 Jul 2021 #82
main difference was surely racial, mixing... not only allowed but...encouraged to entrench the spanish culture/religion/language there

And, that is one of my my points: the racial mixing that has gone on for generations makes impossible to distinguish between, say, an Aztec from a Castilian. In Mexico, more times than not, you'll find a single person incorporating both origins. I know several Mexican families that half the children look pure Castilian and the other half look pure Indian...and they come from the same mother and father.

Now I know for sure you are an American.

But, it has nothing to do with being an American. It's based on justice, logic, and common sense.
Novichok 1 | 2,896
21 Jul 2021 #83
But as a German myself and hence direct successor of the Nazis

Hey, how many times did I tell you to give the middle finger to those that would try to make Germans today feel guilt? Including that idiot from East Germany.
AntV 3 | 252
21 Jul 2021 #84
they just won't stop knocking and demanding!

I know, it's non-sense. It was completely just to demand Germany make reparations immediately following the war (whether that be defined restitution to be paid over a set amount of time or conceding land, etc), but today it's unjust and must stop, IMO.
pawian 178 | 15,893
21 Jul 2021 #85
it's highly unjust to demand compensation from the Spanish,

Yes, but now you are taking this compensation too literally, as financial one,. While I thought we spoke about moral compensation which consists of not rejecting the immigrants who come to Spain from its former colonies. That was the very initial idea expressed by the OP, I forgot his/her nick now.
AntV 3 | 252
21 Jul 2021 #86
I'd include all types of compensation. Bottom line is Spain owes Latin Americans nothing today.
pawian 178 | 15,893
21 Jul 2021 #87
And here is where we disagree. :):) But it was a nice discussion.
mafketis 30 | 9,488
21 Jul 2021 #88
not rejecting the immigrants who come to Spain from its former colonies

People in Spain tend to be prejudiced against Latin Americans (socially and linguistically) but they're not the ones causing real problems in the country. Africans (North and Sub-Saharan) are the ones that end up in petty crime:

diariodecadiz.es/cadiz/treintena-manteros-comerciantes-Compania-Cadiz-comercio-ilegal_0_1593141605.html
(street sellers blocking up space in town)

or worse

lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/galicia/2021/02/17/narcos-marroquies-caidos-madrid-tenian-socios-galicia-alijos/0003_202102G17P12999.htm
(moroccan drug gang)

elindependiente.com/espana/2021/06/30/detienen-en-un-pueblo-de-toledo-a-un-yihadista-marroqui-con-60-manuales-sobre-explosivos-y-venenos/
(moroccan jihadi)
pawian 178 | 15,893
21 Jul 2021 #89
Africans (North and Sub-Saharan) are the ones that end up in petty crime:

If they come from Spanish colonies, it is Spain`s internal problem. If they don`t, deport them for misconduct in a host country and no problem.
Novichok 1 | 2,896
21 Jul 2021 #90
Two problems with your naive post. Being where you are without permission IS misconduct. Two, these bums destroy their IDs as soon as they are in. Without them, the country of origin will not take the undocumented scum.


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