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Polonia outraged by EU interference



mafketis 16 | 4,837    
19 Jan 2016  #151

Still the fact remains the Greeks hid their debts and it came back to bite them.

I remember hearing for _years_ that everybody knew the Greeks were lying, Germany was just as complicit as Goldman Sachs in the deception so their self-righteousness now is very hard to take.

And the Euro was guaranteed to fail as it was not a transfer union - for it to work the "soft" countries somehow had to become more productive than the traditional powerhouses and there was no way in reality for that to happen.

Terrible, terrible currency and I hope Poland keeps from joining as long as possible.


polishinvestor 1 | 319    
19 Jan 2016  #152

The Germans were not privy to any underhand actions by Greece but as I say it was in their interests to get onboard as many peripheral nations as possible. The Goldman swaps didnt come to light much later, some time after 2008 when nations were ordered to restate their accounts as such transactions were banned.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
19 Jan 2016  #153

The Germans were not privy to any underhand actions by Greece but as I say it was in their interests to get onboard as many peripheral nations as possible.

They didn't know the specifics but they knew the Greek government was lying (either that or Germany has the stupidest most ill-informed negotiators ever).
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
19 Jan 2016  #154

As I said, the Germans gained from accepting peripheral nations. They had so much more to gain or at least so they thought at the time. They will have had an idea about the debt disappearing, but they were not at fault for the deceit. That was all the Greeks and of course with a helping hand from Goldman.

Its like a bar owner telling his staff to check ID's and not serve anyone under 18. The guy may or may not be 18, but has the correct ID, so gets served and bar sells a few beers. But if that someone gets bladdered and has to have their stomach pumped, whose fault is it really?
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
20 Jan 2016  #155

They will have had an idea about the debt disappearing, but they were not at fault for the deceit.

As I said, they aided and abetted the deceit and need to own up to that and it needs to inform their relations with Greece now - and it doesn't. All Germany has to offer is austerity and no growth forever.

My analogy is more like recruiting a cousin into a financial scheme. The cousin takes out phony loans from a loanshark to buy in and when the whole thing goes under is left with a lot of debts and then the recruiter starts lecturing their cousin about how they have to pay off the loan sharks.
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
20 Jan 2016  #156

If Greece had stayed out of the euro, it could have devalued and not had the problem. Debt was only a couple of points off 3%, a devaluation would have dealt with that. It was their own doing, own wishes to join the euro under false pretences. Nobody forced them. And of course the Greek attitude to work, pensions and reform meant they were never going to be in a position to pay off the bailouts, all of which could have been turned down at every juncture. Yes it would have been painful, but it is they that made the decision to join under false pretences, not the Germans. Just because someone benefits from an action, doesnt automatically mean they are responsible for that action.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
20 Jan 2016  #157

From memory, didn't the Greek method of dealing with the massive tax evasion and huge pensions involve randomly devaluing the drachma by about 10% on an unpredictable basis? I seem to recall that the problem with the Euro was that they suddenly couldn't do it anymore, yet they still retained all the structural failings. So as a result, they started piling up the debts - and couldn't manipulate the currency to help.

But then again, you have to remember that the Euro was a political project designed to deepen European integration. It's not exactly a big secret that the French demanded it in return for German unification.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
20 Jan 2016  #158

If Greece had stayed out of the euro, it could have devalued and not had the problem

An excellent reason for Poland to not join the Euro!

it is they that made the decision to join under false pretences, not the Germans

Then they should be allowed/forced to leave. There is no exit from their situation ever. Permanent debt bondage is not a sustainable model for the EU.

Any group that lets you join and won't let you leave is tyranny.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
20 Jan 2016  #159

Then they should be allowed/forced to leave.

They could've left in summer if they wanted, but no Greek politician is going to take the risk of the situation turning into the Icelandic situation where people have no hope of paying their debts.

Having said that, if Greece stopped screwing around and implemented a serious reform of the economy, I suspect that austerity would have finished by now. At least one German friend of mine suggests that the current pain is punishment for the sheer ineptitude of the Greeks when dealing with this.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
20 Jan 2016  #160

They could've left in summer if they wanted, but no Greek politician is going to take the risk

The results of both elections were a de facto verdict to leave the Euro but the results were set aside. A very bad precedent. I agree that no Greek politician wants to be the one bell the cat.
G (undercover)    
20 Jan 2016  #161

Icelandic situation where people have no hope of paying their debts.

LOL ! Iceland did the right thing. It works both ways, lenders don't get the interest for nothing. They take the risk. Sometimes they lose. Greece should have defaulted long time ago. They were pushed into a trap and got into huge debts to bail out "financial institutions" that shouldn't lend them any money in the first place.
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
20 Jan 2016  #162

They were pushed into a trap and got into huge debts to bail out "financial institutions" that shouldn't lend them any money in the first place.

So much BS. Greeks came into the euro with hidden debts. The chose to hide their debts and met thus the entry criteria. Nobody forced them.

Oh and by the way, the Greeks have defaulted half a dozen times over the last couple of hundred years. Of course one can go further back to the original sceptic, Virgil "Timeo danaos et dona ferentes" I fear the Greeks even when they bear gifts.

Everyone, please focus on Poland
InPolska 11 | 1,824    
20 Jan 2016  #163

I am amazed to read that those not having euro (I'm sure some of whom have never even seen a coin or a banknote) claim to know all about it. However, Poland as all new members are to switch to euro as it was part of the deal when entering the Union.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,636    
20 Jan 2016  #164

However, Poland as all new members are to switch to euro as it was part of the deal when entering the Union.

You are only half-right. No date was specified in the accession treaty, so Poland may postpone entering the euro zone ad infinitum without any consequences for doing so.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
20 Jan 2016  #165

No date was specified in the accession treaty, so Poland may postpone entering the euro zone ad infinitum without any consequences for doing so.

And may she do so! The potential downsides _far_ outweigh the meager benefits.

The non-negotiability of the Euro is a major weakness of the EU (since it's not a real currency but a loan scheme). It worked better than expected in good times but failed miserably (like most experts predicted) in bad times.

I can't think of a single non-legalistic reason for adopting the thing.
InPolska 11 | 1,824    
20 Jan 2016  #166

EU has a very strong weapon: subsidies and since Poland cannot survive without them, Poland shall always do as being told. Kopacz has accepted 7,000 migrants to begin with (first 100 of them to arrive in Poland at end of March 2016) for fear to lose (some of) EU money. Like Americans say: "money talks" (... 'and baloney walks). W'estern Europe is more than fed up to feed Poland and others (one main reason why anti EU parties have become so strong in the west). In my opinion, EU should have stayed at the level it was with the 6 first countries (Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg); all other countries have just brought chaos and taking in so many weak countries in 2004 was the hugest mistake. None of the countries which joined in 2004 were ready and they are still too weak. They were accepted only in order for western companies to come more easily to exploit cheap labor (better for them to pay 300 than 3,000 euro salaries ;)). As a normal citizen from western Europe, I am 1000% against current EU and should it collapse soon, so much the better; I'd of course open a good bottle of Champagne ;)
G (undercover)    
20 Jan 2016  #167

So much BS. Greeks came into the euro with hidden debts.

Yeah you "expert" :)))) Everyone knew about their "hidden debts". They were needed in the EZ to:

1. keep the EUR lower thus making German export more competitive.
2. cook a nice crisis, make huge transfers to financial institutions and rob Greeks of their assets still keeping them with "debts" that they will be "paying off" for generations.

They (or rather their "elites") were fools to fall into the trap, which doesn't change a fact that the trap was there.

So called "west" haven't been really productive since decades, so they just use capital generated by previous generations to get others in debts and then drink their blood via transfer of capital.

Poland as all new members are to switch to euro

Or else what :))))) ?
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
20 Jan 2016  #168

Poland has to be seen to be saying the right things and making small steps to joining. It doesnt matter what the current government says, because their is always the next one. As long as its possible for Poland to join, it will muddle along in that way. The problem would come if any government tried to make permanent the zloty, constitution-wise, there would likely be consequences. But no sane government would try this since Poland is still a long way off ready to join so there is no threat to an anti euro government currently or near future.
G (undercover)    
20 Jan 2016  #169

They were accepted only in order for western companies to come more easily to exploit cheap labor

True.

I am 1000% against current EU and should it collapse soon, so much the better

True too.
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
20 Jan 2016  #170

Again Greece wasnt held at gun point to join. Its a basic point you still fail to grasp. The rest after that is completely irrelevant because if Greece doesnt join, it doesnt suffer those consequences. That is life you pay for the consequences of your actions, intended or not.

As for Poland, I have just stated it can muddle along happily now as it is, there is no pressure to join in the next 5 years. They benefit from EU funding while enjoy a floating currency. Yes eventually a decision will be made, but for now there is nothing to gain for politicians to euro bash as nobody expects them to join in the near future anyway.
G (undercover)    
20 Jan 2016  #171

Again Greece wasnt held at gun point to join.

Of course not. Corrupting their "elites" and using agents of influence is much more efficient.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,636    
20 Jan 2016  #172

EU has a very strong weapon: subsidies and since Poland cannot survive without them,

I can assure you that Poland an survive without any subsidies from the EU just as it had managed to survive all that time up to the moment when she joined the EU in 2004.

Poland shall always do as being told.

You obviously mistake Poland for Algeria in the 1960. The French then thought so as well, but were repelled and have never been allowed to return to Algeria ever since.

W'estern Europe is more than fed up to feed Poland and others (one main reason why anti EU parties have become so strong in the west).

So why did you regularly advocate Europe and Poland to receive Muslim immigrants a few months age, whereas now you say that Western Europe is "fed up to feed others"?

They were accepted only in order for western companies to come more easily to exploit cheap labor.

So why have you constantly been bragging so far that it is Poland which takes all the benefits of joining the EU, whereas now you have decided to openly admit that also western companies (including those from the EU) draw benefits because they "came to exploit cheap labour" in Poland?
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
20 Jan 2016  #173

Of course not. Corrupting their "elites" and using agents of influence is much more efficient.

Corrupting how? Bribes? You have evidence of this? Of course you dont. But even so, lets go with your argument. To be corrupted you must allowed yourself to be corrupted. Again its a choice. Made by the Greeks.

I can assure you that Poland an survive without any subsidies from the EU just as it had managed to survive all that time up to the moment when she joined the EU in 2004.

There was massive foreign investment prior to the year of joining the EU. It in fact created a property bubble from which parts of Poland havent fully recovered. It did make a lot of local land and property owners rich if they managed to hold on through the early 00's, as well as many peasants and farmers that found buyers for their land which up til then wasnt worth a great deal.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,575    
20 Jan 2016  #174

evidence of this?

Sure, any time you enter an office, factory, hospital, business, school or other other institution just ask at the desk: "Where is your Bribe Department" and you will get promptly directed to room 12 or 302. LOL!
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
20 Jan 2016  #175

I repeat a conscious decision. And so they are where they are.




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