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80 years to the Battle of Moscow!!!


OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #241
be they nazis, commies or islamists that are prepared to kill innocent people

Many Roman Catholics participated in crusades and hailed burning "witches", scientists and Protestants (like Jan Gus and Gordano Bruno) at the stake. Does it prove that all Catholic extremists? I don't believe in it. Political or religious views by itself do not prove intention to kill innocent people. Zoya was a komsomol member. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomol#:~:text=listen%20(help%C2%B7info)),organization%20in%20the%20Soviet%20Union.

The All-Union Leninist Young Communist League
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #242
Seriously....18 year old german soldiers who had grown up in the third Reich, in the Hitlerjugend, were not different to the young Stalinists. They too thought they had to defend the Vaterland, surrounded by enemies, gaining back what was stolen, destroy the jewish "bloodsuckers", fight for the future of Europe with destroying communist Russia etc.etc.etc.

Killing now, peace and freedom later!

People like to forget (understandable) that the fight against Stalin had alot of supporter in most other western countries, Divisions who joined the Wehrmacht. The first european Army if you so want...

...Among the approximately one million foreign volunteers and conscripts who served in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS during World War II were ethnic Belgians, Czechs, Dutch, Finns, Danes, French, Hungarians, Norwegians, Poles,[1] Portuguese, Swedes,[2] and British, along with people from the Baltic states and the Balkans.[3] At least 47,000 Spaniards served in the Blue Division.[4]...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts

...Some estimates state anywhere between 600,000 and 1,400,000 Soviets (Russians and non-Russians) joined the Wehrmacht forces as Hiwis.

It was seen as a war for the soul and future of Europe! Otherwise it's hard to understand why so many joined Hitler and kept with him till the end inspite of the masses of atrocities and even genocide....
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #243
were not different to the young Stalinists

The difference is that she was on the defending side... And was executed not too far from the capital of her country.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #244
The difference is that she was on the defending side...

Well...communism as an idea was definitely spreading in western counties....helped and paid for by Moscow!

Alot of russian anti-communists joined the Wehrmacht, hoping to help toppling the dictator in the Kreml....many Ukrainians, Russians, Balts greeted the Wehrmacht as liberators...did you ever wonder why?
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #245
many Ukrainians, Russians, Balts greeted the Wehrmacht as liberators...did you ever wonder why?

Because they were stupid.
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #246
Well...communism as an idea was definitely spreading in western counties....helped and paid for by Moscow!

Do you want to undermine freedom of speech? It never worked well for any country. Neither for USSR.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #247
Na ja....back then communism was a "new" thing.....now people have seen what it means, what it brings and I guess you won't win any elections with communism anymore, nowhere in the West. In that regard no undermining necessary.

But back then it was seen as a real threat...that's the sad irony of Hitler....he helped to build and cement the communist russian empire like no other with his defeat.
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #248
I guess you won't win any elections with communism anymore, nowhere in the West.

Greece in 201?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #249
Communism in Greece???

Just in case you have forgotten:

simplicable.com/new/communism

(If there had been a true communist party in power they still would have abolished elections and democracy in the first place, they would still be in power!)
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #250
Communism in Greece???

Not completely, but "radical left party" was ruling there recently. How extensive elements of communism was there I do not know.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #251
And they begged the capitalists for more money...

Greece had alot of home made socialist problems, but it was never communist. And it already lost even more of it's appeal...no socialist/communist country had ever been economically successful! A lesson people get sick of repeating...
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #252
no socialist/communist country had ever been economically successful!

Yugoslavia? Well, it depends with what to compare. Capialist countries are too different.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #253
Before or after they broke away from the Soviet Empire? (It got better afterwards)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia

...Due to Yugoslavia's neutrality, and its leading role in the Non-Aligned Movement, Yugoslavia traded with both Western and Eastern markets. Starting in the early 1950s, it also received billions of dollars of Western foreign aid, mostly from the United States.[25] The trade with Non-Aligned countries amounted to only 15% of total trade in 1965.[26] Despite several trade agreements, it never managed to become significant because of its geographic distance and the fact that both sides were exporters of commodities and simple products, interested mostly in imports of Western technological goods. In 1964, when Yugoslavia was granted special associate status with Comecon, its trade with Eastern markets was less than 25% of total trade, and OECD was the main trading partner with around 60%.[26] Yugoslavia had a very poor foreign trade record with trade account deficits in almost every year of its existence.[27]...

Everything is better with less socialism/communism! :)
Miloslaw 14 | 4,676
29 Jan 2022 #254
Many Roman Catholics participated in crusades

A very long time ago and irrelevant to this discussion.
Stop trying to obfuscate.

18 year old german soldiers who had grown up in the third Reich, in the Hitlerjugend, were not different to the young Stalinists

You are spot on BB, Nazis have a lot in common with communists.

The difference is that she was on the defending side

That doesn't matter, she was a communist and just as bad as a nazi.

This is the point.
Communists,.nazis and Islamic extremists are all the same.
I don't accept the excuses of brainwashing or youth.
All these people were old enough and free enough to make their own decisions.
The directions they took were pure evil.
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #255
Everything is better with less socialism

In all Western countries minimal wage is dictated by government, not by market. Could we call it a market economy? High minimal wages in turn influence all other wages because obviously, you cannot pay to a doctor or engineer as little as to a newspaper boy distributor. US and Canada are importing billions of tons of Chinese goods and I wonder what Chinese receive in exchange. Dollars or debt obligations? In countries like Ukraine where government doesn't set high minimal wages, living conditions are worse than they were 40 years ago.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #256
In countries like Ukraine where government doesn't set high minimal wages, living conditions are worse than they were 40 years ago.

And still...they don't want those times back....wonder why?
Miloslaw 14 | 4,676
29 Jan 2022 #257
Everything is better with less socialism/communism

Agreed.

minimal wage

A ridiculous idea in my opinion, because it means that all employers pay that wage instead of allowing market forces to set wages.
If you need staff you need to pay more.
But if everyone is paying the minimum wage, you don't need to.
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #258
And still...they don't want those times back

I'm not sure about majority. I think many would want return to the late Gorbachevs times at least in the sense of general legislation.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
29 Jan 2022 #259
Maybe....but then we are not talking about communism anymore ....especially not the hardcore version from the the interwar years of the last century (trying hard to get back to the thread topic).
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #260
Largest part of economy in Western contries is virtual economy. Companies like Google, Facebook, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaverse
Any country needs to choose between real and virtual economy.
Novichok 2 | 7,652
29 Jan 2022 #261
Companies like Google, Facebook,

...are virtual crap and subtract from the GNP as they destroy minds and steal time that could be used to make things.

but then we are not talking about communism anymore...

No country was ever communist. Some were "communist".
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
29 Jan 2022 #262
They too thought they had to defend the Vaterland, surrounded by enemies, gaining back what was stolen

But definitely not Kiev was stolen from them.
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
30 Jan 2022 #263
Everything is better with less socialism

In GDR population was relatively stable at 16 mln. Now ethnic German woman gives birth to 1 child on average. It means that just in two generations (something like 60-70 years) ethnic German population will drop from 16 to 4 mln! in Eastern part of Germany. And how are you going to solve this proble? Back to faschism?
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,846
30 Jan 2022 #264
In countries like Ukraine where government doesn't set high minimal wages, living conditions are worse than they were 40 years ago

Coruption and theft made them poor.

Now ethnic German woman gives birth to 1 child on average.

In Russia even less. Why don't you move back to Russia?
Defending that crappy country from a safe distance.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,192
30 Jan 2022 #265
Expats are not seldom great nationalists....viewing the old country through rose tinted glasses....they don't have to live in it anymore!
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
30 Jan 2022 #266
Coruption and theft made them poor.

I agree that these are serious problems, but still I'm not sure they could halt economic development completely. Private owners aren't interested to steal their own money. But they are interested to pay to their workers as little as possible. If goverment do not set high minimal wages, we could call it a true market economy. Like in Ukraine, Russia or Mexico.
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
30 Jan 2022 #267
many Ukrainians, Russians, Balts greeted the Wehrmacht as liberators

They were ignorant. There could be no normal future for non-arians in III Reich. The all would be doomed to extinction.
Oathbreaker 4 | 493
30 Jan 2022 #268
But they are interested to pay to their workers as little as possible.

Which is stupid, some percentage of profit should allways go to increase in wages. Not only to motivate workers. But also increase the chance of taking the most hardworking workers from competitors even if their offered low wages at the start, they would know their hard working efforts will come to fruitation compared other companies who refuse to do so. Especially if wages will only increase with groundbreaking profit increases.

Extremely bad mismanagement, cause the company's reputation would also increase since said companies would slowly earn more then workers from other companies.

Making their services/products far more positive in the eyes of the consumers which also are companies workers themselves possibly, friends or relatives.
OP Vlad1234 18 | 1,202
30 Jan 2022 #269
increase the chance of taking the most hardworking workers from competitors

Usually, competition between workers for working places is a much bigger than competiton between business owners for workforce. And this situation will only worsen as this competition becomes global (outsourcing) and automation increases. Why to use positive incentives if negative (fear to loose job) are quite sufficient? In general there is a rule in market economy: "price of some entity cannot grow if proposition of this entity exceeded demand". Therefore price of workforce (salaries) cannot grow if proposition of workforce in total exceeds demand. What is usual case everywhere. The opposite cases are exceedenly rare...
Oathbreaker 4 | 493
30 Jan 2022 #270
@Vlad1234
Cause it increases production, quality and profit

Only business owners who want to sell it ASAP do not follow such way of thinking


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