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Germany. SPD coalition with CDU/CSU leaves party youth out? What it means for Poland?


TheresaHall 1 | -    
19 Jan 2018  #1
The Social Democratic Party of Germany (the SPD) will hold an extra party congress on January, 21, which is practically aimed to determine the destiny of the future government of the country. The party members are to take a decision on the entering the coalition with the alliance CDU/CSU, won during the elections.

conspiracyoutpost.com/topic/53017-germany-spd-coalition-with-cducsu-leaves-party-youth-out/?tab=comments#comment-462767



dolnoslask 5 | 2,456    
19 Jan 2018  #2
Socialists won't have a positive influence

Good news
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
19 Jan 2018  #3
To mods, you shouldn't move this thread as Germany the largest political and economic power in Europe is a direct neighbor and what happens there is important to Poland.

Personally, I hope the talks fail. I can think of few things worse for Germany, Poland or Europe than Martin Schulz getting his dirty paws anywhere near the levers of power.

He would not be a reliable ally for Poland. He's an unreconstructed pan-Europeanist (in other words Germany in charge of everything without having any responsibility for the outcome).

Merkel should try for a minority government... wouldn't do much but then it wouldn't be hurting its neighbors (like Poland) as much as she has so far. Her disastrous refugee policy made POs' relatively good relations with Germany an electoral liability and the worst elements of PiS would not be able to run free had she chosen a different path, bad policy doesn't become good policy with time.
cms 9 | 1,287    
19 Jan 2018  #4
If it wasnt migrants PiS would find some other excuse to argue with Germany - could be North stream, reparations, EU budget, the state of the pitch in the 74 World Cup or any other thing. Antagonism is a central plank of their foreign policy
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
19 Jan 2018  #5
If it wasnt migrants PiS would find some other excuse to argue with Germany

But it wouldn't resonate with voters (and other neighboring countries) as much, it would be nasty PiS being nasty PiS and most people wouldn't care.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
19 Jan 2018  #6
Good news

So you've never ever used the NHS, a state school, a free university education, never been in a council house, worked anywhere that has health and safety at work or proper holidays or driven down a toll-free motorway. Interesting.
Tacitus 2 | 859    
19 Jan 2018  #7
That the youth organizations disagrees with the party leadership is nothing uncommon in Germany, they are allowed a lot of independence.

I would not read much into it.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,654    
19 Jan 2018  #8
Interesting.

Shall we place bets on how long it will take him to go back and use the NHS when he needs it and the NFZ doesn't cut it?
Lyzko 20 | 6,177    
19 Jan 2018  #9
Youth in Germany have never been more empowered politically ever since the election of Angela Merkel. Wonder whether in Poland, both younger voters as well as politicians are held in equally high esteem.
TheOther 5 | 3,683    
19 Jan 2018  #10
I can think of few things worse for Germany, Poland or Europe than Martin Schulz getting his dirty paws anywhere near the levers of power.

Totally agree. Schulz would be the end of both the EU and Germany. At the moment there are discussions to allow family reunification for refugees/ migrants to get the number of crimes under control. Can you believe that? Even though they promised that this will never happen.
Tacitus 2 | 859    
19 Jan 2018  #11
As if the refugee crisis is still the defining problem of either Germany or the EU. We have bigger fishes to fry now. Nevermind that Schulz and Merkel on the same page regarding the EU, they only differ on how much they endorse Macron's proposals. Though it is probably relevant that it is in Poland's interest that Merkel remains chancellor.
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
19 Jan 2018  #12
As if the refugee crisis is still the defining problem of either Germany or the EU

It's one of the defining problems of Germany's relations with its neighbors including Austria.... as much as the German media and government try to downplay how disappointing the results are.

And the results are just so effing terrible. Did you see the story about how out of 43,000 taking a special German language course (while living in Germany) with up to 1300 class hours less than 20% tested out at the B1 level, considered the bare minimum for entering the lowest rungs of the Germany job market?

This is a full fledged welfare underclass in the making and the more family members they bring in the bigger and more dysfunctional it will be. How is this not considered an economic and cultural and political fiasco?

Interestingly Macron has actually taken on a fair bit of Le Pen's rhetoric regarding migration to France (though it remains to be seen if he's willing to back it up with policy).
Tacitus 2 | 859    
19 Jan 2018  #13
It's one of the defining problems of Germany's relations with its neighbors including Austria

Germany has 9 neighbours and the only country it has a conflict over this is Poland (and even then it is more of a conflict between the EU and Poland). Kurz is too smart as to let something like that cloud the relations with Austria's most important neighbour about something like this. He'll introduce harsh measures against refugees in his country and Merkel will not comment on this. Because neither Kurz nor Merkel are idiotic enough to make a scene over this.

How is this not considered an economic and cultural and political fiasco?

Because the long-term perspective is considered here. The aim is to get the cildren of those refugees into school and integrate them properly, something Germany neglected to do in the past. I volunteered to work for such a program and I think they can work.

Besides, this is not only considered under economic considerations. It is acknowledged in Germany that Merkel saved the Southern European countries and probably prevented armed conflicts in the Balkans by accepting the refugees. And nevermind that she at least proved worthy of being the leader of a party that has the description "Christian" in its' name.
TheOther 5 | 3,683    
19 Jan 2018  #14
As if the refugee crisis is still the defining problem of either Germany or the EU.

Look at the development in countries like Poland, Austria, Hungary or the Czech Republic. Remember how strong the right wingers in France, the Netherlands, Italy and Greece already are, and how many votes the AfD got in the last election. And you are still claiming that the refugee crisis is not a problem in Germany or the EU? Are you living on another planet?

The aim is to get the cildren of those refugees into school and integrate them properly

I have a few teacher friends in Berlin, and they tell me a different story. 20 out of 30 students in class are third world foreigners with hardly any working knowledge of German. Now chance for the future, no integration possible.
TheOther 5 | 3,683    
19 Jan 2018  #15
For those of you who understand a little German: spiegel.de/sptv/a-239358.html

And some people are still claiming there's no problem...
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
19 Jan 2018  #16
get the cildren of those refugees into school and integrate them properly, something Germany neglected to do in the past.

I agree that Germany mostly failed to integrate non-European immigrants in the past, what's different now? How do you inculcate German values of secular education, non-sectarian government and social equality of the sexes to children whose parents find those values to be abhorrent?

It can work but not by any of the methods used in most of modern Western Europe.
Lyzko 20 | 6,177    
19 Jan 2018  #17
Presently, at least according to the latest issue of DER SPIEGEL, more than half of all incoming primary school pupils in Germany don't have German as a mother tongue at home and frequently are not literate in that language by the time they enter the first grade.

Chancellor Merkel, Schulz, and the rest of their party have a lot to answer for!

@TheresaHall, what are you feelings on this subject?
Tacitus 2 | 859    
19 Jan 2018  #18
@TheOther

And you are still claiming that the refugee crisis is not a problem in Germany or the EU

I wrote it is not the definining problem in Germany or the EU. The refugee crisis is not the reason why the youth organization of the SPD (which is the OP of this thread) is against a coalition with Merkel, they believe that the SPD has not received enough concessions in other areas. Neither is the refugee crisis currently the big talking point in Bruessels, that would be Brexit, Poland's justice reform and the proposals of Macron.

Look at the development in countries like Poland, Austria, Hungary or the Czech Republic.

Austria always had a significant leaning for the right-wing politicians, altough no doubt the pictures of 2015 helped (even though Merkel did them a huge favour by taking those refugees who were already in Austria). That being said we shall see how the new Austrian government will affect Europe, since Kurz explicately reserved the European policy for him and not his coalition partner.

Orban was already in power and well on his way to consolidate his position with xenophobic policies and we know that he actually asked Merkel in summer 2015 to take some of the refugees who came to Germany. And even then this issue might not be as important as he hoped, since he e.g. failed to motivate enough Hungarians to vote on a plebiscite against refugees some time ago. As for Poland, well I sincerely hope that the Polish were not gullible enough to vote for PiS because of this, (since refugees are hardly a relevant issue for Poland) and from what I have read and heard, promises like the money given to parents were more important for many voerts.

Remember how strong the right wingers in France, the Netherlands, Italy and Greece already are, and how many votes the AfD got in the last election.

All countries in which they failed to gain a majority, in fact Greece is currently ruled by socialists. And the AfD is still a small party in Germany and likely to suffer from infighting during the next few years, once they have to decide how openly xenophobic and antisemitic they want to be. It is already happening.

@mafketis

mostly failed to integrate non-European immigrants in the past,

This is an exaggeration. The majority of the immigrants are decently integrated, there are problems with parallel societies, but this only affects a minority of the immigrants. Of course, there is much room for improvement, but Germany did much better than e.g. France or Belgium overall.

How do you inculcate German values of secular education, non-sectarian government and social equality of the sexes to children whose parents find those values to be abhorrent?

Simple, get them into schools, provide them with language courses and make sure that they stay in school as long as possible. The main problem in the past was that the German school system mostly had children in the school only for half a day, but now children spend most of their time in school where they learn the language.
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
19 Jan 2018  #19
but this only affects a minority of the immigrants.

What unemployment and imprisonment rates?

get them into schools, provide them with language courses and make sure that they stay in school as long as possible

Does. Not. Work.

Real integration at some level requires ideological violence (this country is better than your parent's country, this culture is better than your parents' culture) that no Europeans have the willpower to carry out. that was the success of the American melting pot - indoctrinating children into the idea that the more they held on to their home culture the worse Americans (and worse people) they would be.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
19 Jan 2018  #20
That the youth organizations disagrees with the party leadership is nothing uncommon in Germany, they are allowed a lot of independence.

It would in fact be more surprising if they weren't at variance.

The original post reads like something from Putin's troll factory.
G (undercover)    
19 Jan 2018  #21
The Social Democratic Party of Germany (the SPD) will hold an extra party congress on January, 21,

Huh ? Hwo are you, a nazi as you folks call yourself these days ???
Tacitus 2 | 859    
19 Jan 2018  #22
@mafketis

Does. Not. Work.

This can hardly be said, since it has not been attempted before.

this country is better than your parent's country, this culture is better than your parents' culture

The children will come to the conclusion themselves, ones given the chance, particulary the girls will appreciate it. All the state has to do is to make sure that the parents can't force their children to adhere to their outdated views, e.g. by forcibly marrying them off.
TheOther 5 | 3,683    
19 Jan 2018  #23
I wrote it is not the definining problem in Germany or the EU.

I really don't understand how you can ignore the writing on the wall. There's no denying the fact that there has been a significant shift to the right in Europe over the past two years, including Germany. Whether people see the EU as a threat or the migrants doesn't really matter, as the BREXIT vote and the elections all across the continent have proven. Roughly two million migrants/ refugees from third world countries are already in Germany. Allow family reunification, and each and everyone of these people will probably bring an additional five family members (minimum) into the country. That's 12 million people altogether, worst case! You want to pay for them, give them housing and education, and at the same time make sure they'll integrate into a society that is totally foreign to them? No chance.

If German politicians really go ahead with their plans, they will be responsible for a political landslide in Germany. Before you know it, the voters will turn against the established parties and give the AfD a majority. Time again for the old slogan "Wer hat uns verraten? Die Herrn Sozialdemokraten", I guess. Remember what happened last time? That's the end of the EU, too.
Crnogorac3 1 | 330    
20 Jan 2018  #24
A video, which through the months and years shows how much Syria was broken from all sides...
Had the Russians not intervened, a big question is how it would have finished...

youtu.be/bMKy0_RE9HM

Germany and the EU should have made a monument to Vladimir Putin, only a lot of people don't even understand this... Assad's government was collapsing and was about to be dead & buried by the end of 2015, which would mean 3 to 4 million refugees more in Europe that Germany would have to house and feed and the total collapse of the system had ISIS taken Damascus, mass slaughter in Syria, etc. Obama had even said that it would take many years, perhaps decades to defeat ISIS, and it was financed and established in the order by the Americans, the Israelis, the Arabs, etc. The truth is that the Russians intervened because the next rebellion would be in their backyard by radical Islamists, there are supposed to be around 5,000 from there that were killed in Syria.

Of course, the little people in Germany and elsewhere in the EU live completely unaware what was about to befall on them and they still go to vote for those same ones who funded it.

1

youtu.be/cHfBIO-alTI
dolnoslask 5 | 2,456    
20 Jan 2018  #25
NHS when he needs it and the NFZ doesn't cut it?

I can pay for what I need thanks same way I did when I lived in other parts of the world US being the most expensive. socialist have caused more harm than good , if as Harry brings up the NHS and welfare its not a project exclusive to socialists, it has cross party support in Poland and the UK.

just a note Delph, I don't think the NFZ can fix your problem, I think you are stuck with it.
Tacitus 2 | 859    
20 Jan 2018  #26
Had the Russians not intervened, a big question is how it would have finished...

The war is not yet finished, and it is highly unlikely that we will see a lasting peace there under such conditions. Large parts of Syria are only officially under Assad's control, while many local warlords run the country.

You are simply repeating Russia propaganda, Assad has done very little to fight ISIS, the rebells who brought him almost to his knees were not ISIS, and Russia commited so many war crimes in Syria that the carricature is highly cynical at best.



The video you linked is just as stupid, does anyone here really buy Russia's excuse about the Ukraine? Russia decided to annex part of the Ukraine and enforced a Civil War that has - among other things - claimed the life of hundreds of Europeans when the "so-called-rebels" shot down the plane.

Russia has disqualified itself to be considered a partner for Europe for a very long time. In fact, Russia has demonstrated that it does not want to be a partner, since it has no respect for the values Europeans today treasure.

@TheOther

Allow family reunification, and each and everyone of these people will probably bring an additional five family members (minimum) into the country

First of all, there are approx. 60k people who might have a claim for family reunification, and the SPD agreed to limit the number of people entering Germany on this accord to 1k per month. More would not be possible anyway, since ther eis only so much the bureaucracy can handle. The SPD and CDU/CSU reached a very good compromise regarding refugees, which is why this is not seen as a possible obstacle for their government. As explained, the problems are elsewhere.

tagesschau.de/inland/analyse-migrationspolitik-101.html

There's no denying the fact that there has been a significant shift to the right in Europe over the past two years, including Germany.

The shift is not as significant as you suggest. There is no right-wing government in Germany, Italy, France, the Netherlands et al.
TheOther 5 | 3,683    
20 Jan 2018  #27
there are approx. 60k people who might have a claim for family reunification

60K out of 2 million? Sources please.

There is no right-wing government in Germany, Italy, France, the Netherlands et al.

No right-wing governments in these countries yet, but a powerful movement. Ignore it at your own peril. The voters in France, the Netherlands and Germany gave the EU one more chance. Screw up and kiss the union goodbye.
SigSauer 4 | 443    
20 Jan 2018  #28
@Tacitus

Assad looks like the only solution for Syria. Under Assad 10% Christian Copts and other ethnic and religious minorities including the Kurds lived in peace because, aside from the rhetoric and dogma that was whipped up on CNN about him, much the same as Saddam and Gaddafi, he is a secular dictator. Every time the neo-cons, and fake liberals beat the war drum to overthrow a secular dictator in the Middle East it results in a quagmire, a failed state, and human misery that is incalculable. Syria is a sovereign country, and therefore it is no other country's place to talk about a "Post-Assad government" or transition. That's for the Syrians to decide, not the United States, or the UK, or Turkey.

To your second point, I agree with everything you said about Ukraine and more. Perhaps the greatest damage to come out of this war has been to nuclear non-proliferation. The Ukrainians signed the Budapest memorandum in good faith, to ensure their territorial integrity. The United States and the UK proved to be feckless when one of the signatories decided to start cleaving parts of sovereign Ukraine off. The absolute cowardliness showed by Obama and the United Kingdom are almost unforgivable. Strongly worded letters, stern warnings, and 200 Humvee's. A laughable response. Then, in 2003, Libya gave up all of its WMD's and its nuclear weapons program. If you're Kim Jong Un, you're looking at this pattern and saying that nuclear weapons are the only way to survive. So, while the damage in Ukraine has been bad for Europe, eventually that conflict will resolve, stay frozen, or fizzle out over time. But the most lasting damage has certainly been to nuclear non-proliferation.

To the third point. I am confused as to why any government would allow people over 55 years old to immigrate to their country, via chain migration. They have family who were given asylum there, ok, they can visit. But to ask the German people to subsidize another country's geriatrics seems beyond the pale to me, people who will inevitably use considerable social resources and government paid medical care. If their family members are not small children, they should obviously be excluded from ever becoming citizens unless they hold a specialist degree or skill in a badly needed trade.

The thing most are ignoring which we all know to be true, even those who have our political viewpoints clouded by emotions rather than observable facts and statistics, is that the majority of the people who came never had a legitimate claim to asylum, and now that the conflict is over they should be repatriated.
Tacitus 2 | 859    
20 Jan 2018  #29
@TheOther

60K out of 2 million? Sources please.

The source is in my post (although it is in German). And yes, only a fraction of the refugees is applicable for that (and that 2 millions is too high anyway.)

Besides even without the agreement this is purely academical. Germany could not grant more than 1k Visas per month anyway.

@SigSauer:

Assad ... he is a secular dictator

It does not matter if he is a secular dictator or not, all that matter is if his rule is stable. His father already had to deal with an uprising, and the current one would have toppled him without outside intervention. His rule is based on the discrimination of the majority of the Syrians (Sunnis) and there is every reason to believe that Syria will habe the same problems within the next generation.

The absolute cowardliness showed by Obama and the United Kingdom are almost unforgivab

What were they supposed to do? Declare war on Russia. Nobody wants to fight WW3 ober the Ukraine.

would allow people over 55 years old to immigrate to

The right of asylum has no age limit. This right was after all not done out of economic considerations. Besides the idea is not to import the whole family, but to allow parents or siblings to reunite. Which is necessary if you want them inregrate properly. You can't expect a child to feel at home knowing that its' parents are in danger.

is that the majority of the people who came never had a legitimate claim to asylum

This is hardly controversial, probably less than 50% of the arrivals had a genuin claim for asylum, the problem is how to make the right judgement on every case.

, and now that the conflict is over they should be repatriated.

You are right regarding e.g. Iraqis, but the conflict in Syria is far from over and most Syrians - except for those who commit crimes - will probably successfully argue that it is not safe for them to return anytime soon. And guys like this will only strengthen their case.

google.de/amp/s/www.alaraby.co.uk/english/amp/news/2017/9/13/syrian-general-warns-refugees-not-to-return-home

The general got killed later on, but comsidering the many atrocities Assaad's regime has commited, and stories of returnees being drafted are made to disappear, no judge would send them back.
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
20 Jan 2018  #30
All the state has to do is to make sure that the parents can't force their children to adhere to their outdated views, e.g. by forcibly marrying them off.

No European country has been very good at this so far... but this time Germany knows exactly how to get it done! (I'm skeptical)


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