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Genealogy and history of Greece and Macedonia


Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #31
More than 370 reputable scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, from 23 countries...

I'd say that there are more than 370 reputable historians in the world, and that the money
Greeks have stolen from the hard working people of Germany, Netherlands and other decent
European countries are enough to corrupt more than 370 historians (when the crisis is over,
you may even increase this number to 390 or 410, who knows - maybe you will even get
a special EU fund for that.)

Macedonians are/were not Greeks. Ancient Greeks (who have as much to do with modern Greeks
as ancient Romans have with today's Italians LOL) themselves didn't consider Macedonians Greeks,
and called them barbarians.

Stop living in denial, and cease your puny attempts at stealing Macedonian history and identity.
Nick the Greek
12 Jun 2011  #32
1...Agree

2...Seriously, are you warped, what about history museums, do Greeks pay for them also!

3...In the absense of credible opposition to that list, that number is fine for now!

4...Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people, we can prove it!

5...Todays Greeks are the only modern people on who can legitimately claim custodial responsibility for the ancient Hellenic legacy which includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

6...In denial is the SouthSlav who has supposedly developed feelings and collective memories for ancient Greeks...Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people and foreign to SouthSlavs, outside of their ethnic-racial, cutlural and linguistic traditions.
Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #33
*YAAAAAAAAAWN*

Still hell bent on lying and stealing Macedonian indentity? Oh, well...

Luckily - 125 countries of the world do not buy Greek lies, and officialy recognize
the proper name of the country - Macedonia.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
12 Jun 2011  #34
Macedonia region:

Macedonia is a geographical and historical region of the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. Its boundaries have changed considerably over time, but nowadays the region is considered to include parts of five Balkan countries: Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, as well as Kosovo. It covers approximately 67,000 square kilometres (25,869 sq mi) and has a population of 4.76 million.

Macedonia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
As far as I can see Macedonia is completely covered by the region, while FTRoG only has some of its northern lands.

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people and they No permit Peonians to take from them their ancient and archaic regional tribal name

So naive ... Well, we'll see :)

Greeks have historic rights over the ancient region of Macedonia...

;) Dream on, boy. You might get to know Ironside, another dreamer.

Todays Greeks are the only modern people on who can legitimately claim custodial responsibility for the ancient Hellenic legacy which includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

You are not able to have a normal custodial responsibility of your lies and debts, forget about Macedonian king.
Nick the Greek
12 Jun 2011  #35
1...Still hell bent on lying and stealing Macedonian indentity? Oh, well...

2...Luckily - 125 countries of the world do not buy Greek lies, and officialy recognize the proper name of the country - Macedonia.

1...I No Lie, I No Steal, Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people, Intrinsic to the Greek-Hellenic Collective of peoples!

2...Those same countries would recognize FYRoM as Paeonia tomorrow, trade and commerce are more important things to them than Balkan name squabbles!
Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #36
1...I No Lie, I No Steal, Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people, Intrinsic
to the Greek-Hellenic Collective of peoples!

Dude - you keep saying this over and over again like a broken record. I can see that you're
a good student of Joseph Goebbels, who believed that a lie repeated a thousand times becomes
truth. I have to dissapoint you - no matter how many times a lie is repeated, it is still a lie.

2...Those same countries would recognize FYRoM as Paeonia tomorrow, trade and commerce
are more important things to them than Balkan name squabbles!

Those countries will call Macedonia and her people the way that they call themselves and there
is absolutely nothing Greece can do about it. You can keep up your hysteria like menstruating women,
and you can continue with your pathetic attempts at stealing Macedonian identity, but the rest of the
World will simply not buy it. The sooner you accept it the better.

Macedonia region

Let's hope that all Macedonian lands will one day be free from the occupation by the Former Turkish
Republic of Greece. This way there will be no more persecution of Macedonian minority by Greek
thieves and liars.
Nick the Greek
12 Jun 2011  #37
As far as I can see Macedonia is completely covered by the region, while FTRoG only has some of its northern lands.

Greece retains 90% of the ancient region of Macedonian, 10% is in FYRoM, it is called Pelagonia!

Greece retains 51% of the geographic region of Macedonia, which is the Wiki drawing in your post!

Greeks are only Interested in the ancient part of Macedonia, Greeks retain 90% of it...10% of it is still unredeemed!

Greeks have No Interest in the rest of the geographic region, it is Not the real or proper Macedonia, I mean the ancient Kingdom!

Alexander the Great was born in the real ancient part of Macedonia, the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia is inside Greek borders and back in Greek hands, it has returned back to the fold so to speak!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs calling themselves Macedonian on the basis of that drawing in your post does not compare to the historic boundaries of the ancient region, which is well described in ancient texts...Strabo for instance, the ancient geographer philosopher and historian!
Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #38
Greece retains 90% (...) Greece retains 51%

Yes, we are aware of the fact that a large part of ancient Macedonian land is under FTRoG's
occupation. It is a well known fact, why brag about it?
Nick the Greek
12 Jun 2011  #39
1...The general consensus is for FYRoM to find a proper more suitable name for itself, one that properly describes the country and
it's peoples, a mutually acceptable name that resolves the name dispute in a definitive conclusive manner, vagueness shall not do, it must made crystal clear who the legitimate heirs and inheritors are, of the ancient Macedonian legacy!

2...Occupation ???...This is Provocation. Greece No occupy Nothing and Persecute Nobody, this is anti-Hellenic propaganda, the kind which Greece has endured for nigh on two decades.

For FYRoM to go forward, it must compromize...The Onus is on FYRoM to compromize in order to find a mutually acceptable name, one that will resolve the name dispute in No uncertain terms!
Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #40
The Onus is on FYRoM to compromize in order to find a mutually acceptable name

Macedonia already has a name, a name that is recognized by the majority of the countries
of the World
and the sooner FTRoG accepts it, the better.
OP southern 75 | 7,097
12 Jun 2011  #41
Macedonians are/were not Greeks.

This is not true.Actually Demosthenes the famous rhetor of Athens caused this confusion because he insisted on calling Macedonians barbarians in order to cause the Athenians create an alliance against them.There were other voices like Isokrates who considered Macedonians Greeks and the most suitable to lead a common Greek war against Perses.Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek.All the words on their graves are greek.Alexander had as teacher Aristoteles the famous Greek philosopher and had as hero Achilles the famous Greek hero from Ilias.The army of Alexander the Great consisted of Macedonians,Thessalians,Athenians,Voiotians,Korinthians every greek tribe except the Spartans who refused to take part in the campaign.

Macedonians had just some customs which were different from Greek ones one of which was their unusual brutality.(for example Olympias the mother of Alexander who killed his brother from different mother in order that Alexander becomes the King as successor of Philip,the destruction of Persepolis the holy city of Perses by Alexander,the destruction of Tyros,an ancient Phoenecian city mother of Carthagena because it resisted 9 months to Alexander,the assasination of Kleitos his closest friend because he refused to accept that Alexander the Great was better than his father Philippos(and Kleitos had saved the life of Alexander in the battle of Granicus) all these were indices of extreme brutality unknown to the hellenic world till the macedonian dynasty.
Nick the Greek
12 Jun 2011  #42
Torq

1...Ok!

2...No, Not occupation, that land has returned back to original owner, back to the fold, back in Greek hands!

3...Infantile!

Macedonia already has a name, a name that is recognized by the majority of the countries of the World and the sooner FTRoG accepts it, the better.

Greeks No recognize Macedonians that are not Greek...If such a people entity exist, then they must distinguish themselves in order to differentiate their type from the Greco-Macedonians, the differences between the two are significant and substantial, it is the difference between having Alexander the Great as ancestor or Not!

FYRoM aspires to join the world most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU and Nato...FYRoM must compromize, this is the general consensus amongst world bodies such as the UN, EU, USA, NATO and World Academia!
Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #43
First you call me warped, now infantile.

Your insults cannot hurt me, just as your persecutions and lies cannot hurt Macedonia and her proud
brave people. The truth and justice will win eventually, and FTRoG's hysteria will be treated with contempt
that it deserves.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
12 Jun 2011  #44
:) I know that for the Macedonians, for you and me and millions others the country is called Macedonia and whatever FTRoG might imagine it is very irrelevant.
Nick the Greek
12 Jun 2011  #45
1...True!

2...I No want to hurt you, just enlighten you. I No persecute and I No lie fool, the distance between my Pride and your Pride do not compare!

3...Truth always prevails...There is No room for half-truths and lies. FYRoM has used it's own Institutions of state to lie to it's own children pupils and students. FYRoM's Academy of Arts and Sciences lies when it says the Rosetta Stone inscriptions, the Demotic Texts are inscribe in their own long lost language to cite but one example!
Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #46
I No want to hurt you, just enlighten you.

Well, it might help if you stopped your blatant lies and insults. As for hurting me - no worries:
a lying worm cannot hurt an eagle.

I No persecute and I No lie

It might also help if you used proper English.

fool

"Warped", "infantile", "fool" - why the insults, liar? Why the nerves, thief? Your emotions betray
you - if you were telling the truth, you would be calm - just like I am, and just like the noble
people of Macedonia are.

the distance between my Pride and your Pride do not compare!

:-) LOL

Truth always prevails

Finally something I can agree with.
OP southern 75 | 7,097
12 Jun 2011  #47
Since we cannot have an ancient Macedonian to explain to us if Macedonians were Greek or not we have to rely on historical and arcaeological evidence.And the only evidence we have are the names of Macedonian nobles and Kings on graves as well as the dedications written on them and they are all written in Greek.So if they had the same religion as Greeks and spoke the same language they have to have been Greeks as well.Plutarch who writes about biographies of Roman and Greek famous people compares Alexander the Great with Julius Caesar and Philippos with another Roman marshall so probably he regarded him as Greek.

''The Macedonians (Greek: , Makedónes) were an ancient tribe inhabiting the alluvial plain around the rivers Haliacmon and lower Axius in the northeastern part of the Greek peninsula. Generally described as an ancient Greek people''

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians
Nick the Greek
12 Jun 2011  #48
Finally something I can agree with.

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people right from the start and the very beginning, there is No Natural process known to man or science which can trasform Greek-Hellenic people into SerboBulgarian speaking SouthSlavs over the course of time!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs wanting to use a Greek-Hellenic name for their country, nationality, language and ethnicity is problematic and confusing not least to themselves because they equate that configuration to legalize themselves as Macedonians when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word!
Torq 26 | 2,371
12 Jun 2011  #49
So if they had the same religion as Greeks (...) they have to have been Greeks as well

Poles have the same religion as Filipinos (Roman Catholicism), so I guess they must be same people, right?

and spoke the same language they have to have been Greeks as well

You know it wasn't the same language. It might have been similar to some extent (like Polish
and Russian for example), there's no certainty about that, but it wasn't the same language.
As for the ancient inscriptions and stuff, well - Greek was a dominant language of that time,
so no wonder that it is present in archeological findings of the era.

so probably he regarded him as Greek

Probably, probably not. It all pure speculation, so we should just let people of Macedonia
tell us about their identity and history, don't you think?

Generally described as an ancient Greek people

Yeah, "generally", "probably" etc. etc. Why did Macedonian rulers speak Greek with an accent,
and were considered barbarians by the Greeks. Why today Macedonians themselves don't
consider themselves Greek? Maybe (just maybe) beacause they are, in fact, NOT GREEK.

at least Not in the Greek sense of that word

Yes, I noticed that "Greek sense of words" seems to be something different than
simply plain sense of words, but that I guess is problem of Greeks, not of the rest
of the World.
Nick the Greek
13 Jun 2011  #50
Macedonia without that Hellenic element is Not Macedonia!

Macedonian void of that Hellenic Ingrediant is Not Macedonian!

It doesn't get any clearer than that, right1
OP southern 75 | 7,097
13 Jun 2011  #51
You know it wasn't the same language.

One of the very few written monuments found in ancient Macedonia was written in northwestern greek dialekt close to that of Ipirus,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet

''The Pella curse tablet is a text written in a distinct Doric Greek idiom, found in Pella, the ancient capital of Macedon, in 1986.[1] t contains a curse or magic spell (Greek: , katadesmos) inscribed on a lead scroll, dating to first half of the 4th century BC (c. 375-350 BC). It was published in the Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993. It is one of four texts[2] found until today that might represent a local dialectal form of ancient Greek in Macedonia, all of them identifiable as Doric. These confirm that a Doric Greek dialect was spoken in Macedonia, as was previously expected from the West Greek forms of names found in Macedonia. ''
Torq 26 | 2,371
13 Jun 2011  #52
These confirm

This single artifact proves nothing. Greek was widespread at that time, just like English is today
in many countries of the world, which doesn't mean that people living in those countries are English.
OP southern 75 | 7,097
13 Jun 2011  #53
It was not an official document.It was a curse written by sb from the lower social classes.There is no document in ancient Macedonia written in any other language than Greek.Alexander spoke Greek to his soldiers.Do polish generals speak english to their soldiers?
Torq 26 | 2,371
13 Jun 2011  #54
It was a curse written by sb from the lower social classes.

So? I know many people from lower social classes who speak and write English (the lingua franca
of today, just as Greek was in ancient times) - I am one of them :-) It proves nothing.

There is no document in ancient Macedonia written in any other language than Greek.

And there is only this one single document written in Greek, coming from the time when Greek
was as widespread in the region as English is today in the world. As I said - it proves nothing.

Alexander spoke Greek to his soldiers.

Please, post a link to the voice recording of Alexander speaking Greek to his soldiers :-)
Or is it only from some secondary sources? Sources which, knowing the "legendary
Greek honesty", may well have been forged.

The fact is that there are living people, of flesh and blood, who inhabit Macedonia and call
themselves Macedonian. I will rather believe them than some single dodgy archeological finding,
and "honest Greeks" with their menstruating women's hysteria. I am also happy to say that
my opinion is shared by the governments and people of 125 countries of the World.

End of.
OP southern 75 | 7,097
13 Jun 2011  #55
there is only this one single document written in Greek

Find my any document from ancient Macedonia written in any other language than Greek.

post a link to the voice recording of Alexander speaking Greek to his soldiers :-

You will also find no link of Napoleon speaking to his soldiers however I guarantee you it was in French.

that there are living people, of flesh and blood, who inhabit Macedonia and call
themselves Macedonian.

Exactly.And the people in Thessaloniki call themselves Macedonian.Actually they dislike the state of Athens as they call it.Try to tell them you are the real Macedonian and they are not they will punch you in no moment.
Torq 26 | 2,371
13 Jun 2011  #56
Find my any document from ancient Macedonia written in any other language than Greek.

Greek was the most widespread language of the region at that time, and there is only one single
document in Greek coming from Macedonia, so no wonder that there are no documents written
in any other less popular language, especially that Macedonians were non-Greek, barbarians -
as Greeks had called them.

You will also find no link of Napoleon speaking to his soldiers however I guarantee you it was in French.

There's no reason for anybody to lie about Napoleon's ethnicity, as opposed to Alexander's,
and we all know that Greeks are very good at lying and cheating, for which they provided
us with more than enough evidence recently.

Exactly.And the people in Thessaloniki call themselves Macedonian.

Yes - some Macedonian lands are still under Greek occupation. We have already established that.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
13 Jun 2011  #57
Find my any document from ancient Macedonia written in any other language than Greek.

Austrians and most Swiss speak German. So? The US and Austalia citizens speak English. Arabic is spoken in tens of states. So, what it means according to your logic?

Exactly.And the people in Thessaloniki call themselves Macedonian. Actually they dislike the state of Athens as they call it.Try to tell them you are the real Macedonian and they are not they will punch you in no moment.

Nobody says that the Thessalonians are not Macedonians. The same way normal people don't argue the name of the Macedonians as Macedonians.
Nick the Greek
13 Jun 2011  #58
The Idea that modern Greeks and neighbouring peoples could be related in more ways than people care to mention is quite evident, I mean more than just by religion and by the cultural influences passed down to us from Byzantium, the things we have in common are not fully appreciated and they need to be evaluated.

All of Greeces neighbours are of partial Greek ancestry, so say modern Genetic studies, so we are, to some degree related at the biological level, and seemingly in more ways than we care to mention, I mean, one can see the similarities. Modern peoples from all four corners of the region share something, obviously not language, but they compensate for that by sharing something in common!

Ancient Macedonians are not around to explain to us directly if they were Greek-Hellenic people or not, so we have to rely on the available evidence, I mean the historical and archaeological evidence.

The evidence that does exist overwhelmingly supports their Greek-Hellenic Identity, I mean what better evidence is there than the names of the Macedonian Nobles, Kings and common folk.

The evidence becomes Insurmountable when one examines their burial graves and entombments, the inscribed dedications written on them are all written in the Greek-Hellenic language. The ancient Macedonians also had the same religion as Greeks and we know they spoke the same language as Greeks so from here, it becomes a safe bet to say they were Greeks, based on the available evidence.

From this reference point, we have to pursuade all the peoples of the Macedonian region who consider Alexander the Great to be their common ancestor, that they too, some way down the line probably had Greek-Hellenic ancestors, I emphasize Greek and not Slavic.

Today the Macedonian Identity is contested, there are Greek-Macedonians and Slav-Macedonians, surely it is made crystal clear now, ancient Macedonians were of Greek-Hellenic stock, who could deny this based on the available evidence...There are modern people today going by that Macedonian name who's connection to them, to the ancients, is the path of least resistance, this continuity, although fragmented is the closest through the modern Greek line-path because it is through this path that has brought the Hellenic link firmly back into the modern age.

Todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern represenatatives of the Hellenic legacy...to be truly representative team Hellas has to be fare to all team members...Macedonians have been team members for ages, since team Hellas was first established, No team coach could permit other coach to poach our Macedonian players in order to use their names symbols and regalia for their team...understand!

Anyway, team Hellas is older, established long time ago, long before new team arrived on the block and started causing trouble!

Team Hellas could get along with new team on the block, provided both teams understand their beginnings, from where we start from, if we are close in that respect, I mean similar beginnings, then lets get closer, but if we are distanced and miles apart, then lets make that seperation clear and distinct by naming our Teams accordingly!
OP southern 75 | 7,097
14 Jun 2011  #59
Fact is most Greeks do not derive their heritage from Pericles and Aristoteles but are connected by bloodline to an albanian shepherd who happens to be their ancestor.Macedonians try the same to present themselves as descendants of ancient Macedonians while this is quite dubious.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
14 Jun 2011  #60
Greeks

Hey Southern, do any of the ancient ethnic distinctions between Greeks still carry water now? The pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece are sometimes called Pelasgians. Does anyone in Greece still claim Pelasgian ethnicity? and what about the Dorian vs. Ionian rivalry has that been forgotten too?


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