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Freedom of Expression in the EU?


AntV 4 | 387
11 Aug 2021 #1
I'm not a Euro so I don't understand the ins-and-outs of the EU all that well.

Regardless of what one thinks of homosexuality...

...I'm wondering how does this:

Germany's justice system of putting European standards at risk after a Cologne court fined a Polish theologian for an article describing gay people in the Catholic clergy as "parasites."

The court imposed the €4,800 penalty on Dariusz Oko, a conservative theology professor based in Krakow, for inciting hatred through his article in a German magazine on alleged homosexual influence in the Vatican.


politico.eu/article/germany-poland-dariusz-oko-lgbtq-influence-vatican/

not offend this:

Article 11 - Freedom of expression and information

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.

2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.


fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/11-freedom-expression-and-information

I get that it was the German court that fined the priest--not the EU, per se, but Germany is a full-fledged member of the EU, is Germany not relegated to uphold the Fundamental Rights Charter? I understand it is being appealed, but if the priest loses appeal can he appeal to the EU courts? How does the EU not intervene in these things? How does Article 11 get enforced? How does what the priest wrote in his article not get protection under Article 11?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
11 Aug 2021 #2
Look there is no freedom of expression as it is understood in the USA.
That EU chart is only a chart like with all EU declarations its only looks good on paper..
In reality German law is above any EU laws but Poland's law is not... and so on..
Lyzko 32 | 7,922
11 Aug 2021 #3
@AntV,

I have to side with Ironside, if only on this point. We here in the States take so, sooo much for granted
in our daily lives, we often don't grasp the nature of what is even [casually] referred to as "freedom of expression", either
at home or abroad!

Going back to Bush '41, for that matter from post 9-11 on forward, we've had numerous liberties aka "personal freedoms" taken
from us, among them, Second Amendment rights, commonly known as "Freedom of Speech". Former Atty. Gen'l John Ashcroft saw to that. Later on, Trump wanted to declare himself dictator of the United States until the Virus won out and luckily stopped him dead in his tracks. If one refrains from what

might be interpreted as "agitation" in some form or other, America is indeed free. If not, one is deemed an "enemy combatant" and placed on a no-fly list:-)

Ask Randi Rhodes or a bunch of other Americans who have the guts to open their mouth.

Merely because Klan supporters or their ilk and can march "peacefully" and unhooded in America, or if yours truly makes a mock
Nazi-salute or screams "Hitler was right!" without fear of paying a stiff fine and/or facing arrest (as in Germany), by no means indicates
that the US had the same freedoms she had prior to the start of the Millenium.

While I wasn't in Poland long enough at all to be able to judge for myself whether or not it's a "free" country in the American understanding

of the term, I have lived in Germany for a while, and can safely say that the still taboo topic of WWII can have serious personal as well as

professional repercussions if anybody dares speak positively about the Third Reich, save in the private setting of their own home.
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #4
Second Amendment rights, commonly known as "Freedom of Speech".

You are not an American. No American would ever confuse the Second with the 1st. The Second is commonly known as Freedom to be my own cop.

professional repercussions if anybody dares speak positively about the Third Reich,

Way back, under Stalin, we faced professional repercussions if anybody dared speak positively about AK or negatively about the USSR. No difference.
Forth Reich... the land of the free.

Quoting from theintercept.com/2017/08/29/in-europe-hate-speech-laws-are-often-used-to-suppress-and-punish-left-wing-viewpoints/

France is probably the most extreme case of hate speech laws being abused in this manner. In 2015, France's highest court upheld the criminal conviction of 12 pro-Palestinian activists for violating restrictions against hate speech. Their crime? Wearing T-shirts that advocated a boycott of Israel - "Long live Palestine, boycott Israel," the shirts read

Just another example of EU freedom of speech and why I want all the dead Americans who died liberating this Euro sewer back.

Wear the wrong T-shirt, go to prison. The USSR doesn't look so bad after all.
OP AntV 4 | 387
11 Aug 2021 #5
My question has nothing to do with comparing America with Europe. My question is how does the German court ruling not offend the text of Article 11 of the EU Fundamental Rights Charter.
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #6
My question is how does the German court ruling not offend the text of Article 11 of the EU

The same way the Soviet and the Polish courts ignored their constitutions and threw the naive into prisons for being "the enemies of the people". The Western linguistic tumor - hate speech - was not yet invented.

The change from those days is only in the form of punishment. Today, it's a fine, 6 months, or unemployment. Or all three if you badmouth the system. "
Lyzko 32 | 7,922
11 Aug 2021 #7
Germany naturally harbors grave concern over the spread of controversial and enflamed rhetoric within the EU. It is a legitimate concern and should not be belittled.
OP AntV 4 | 387
11 Aug 2021 #8
Who determines what is controversial or inflamed rhetoric? Where in Article 11 does it say one cannot propose controversial opinions or inflamed rhetoric?

I haven't read the article, but if the priest is simply stating homosexuality within the priesthood is causing problems within the clergy, how is that not legitimate free expression?

You seem to espouse an autocratic streak against opinions that differ from either your own or the zeitgeist, Lyzko

If we are not to allow controversial opinions, how do we innovate or grow in knowledge? Think of all of the scientific and cultural discoveries born from controversial opinions. Hell, not too long ago, the thought that homosexuality would be considered normative was controversial and inflamed rhetoric.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,664
11 Aug 2021 #9
Conservatives are often called "Nazis" from the german lefties....I always wonder why that isn't seen as hate speech too...
OP AntV 4 | 387
11 Aug 2021 #10
Yeah, good question.

I think it may be that most conservatives accept the right to have any opinion, and instead of calling it hate speech, they will defend themselves by arguing how they are not nazis. In other words, having a free exchange of expression.

Although, I've noticed that some (not many) conservatives are starting to call for such speech to be censured. The old what's good for the goose is good for the gander approach. A very slippery slope.

How does this work, BB? It seems obvious to me this ruling is a violation of Article 11. If the priest loses it on appeal, can he take it to EU? And, if EU sees it as an obvious violation of Article 11, will the German courts be forced to quash its ruling?
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #11
.I always wonder why that isn't seen as hate speech too...

The answer is in the first sentence of your post. See: lefties.
I have no doubt that "This Mulsim pos..." is hate speech but "This Christian pos..." is not. Not under German or French law, but in the German or French courts and public opinion.

Just as "Black Lives Matter" is progressive and "White Lives Matter" is hate speech.

It is a legitimate concern and should not be belittled.

No, it's not legitimate and it should be ridiculed every chance we have. A country with the Ministry of Truth is not a country of free people. It's a gulag. Mental, but a gulag nevertheless.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,664
11 Aug 2021 #12
It seems obvious to me this ruling is a violation of Article 11

In Germany since the Nazis there exist a statutory offence called "Volksverhetzung" (Incitement of people?).....in short 12 years of calling other human beings "cancer", "plague" or "parasites", calling for their containment and/or removal have led to the death of millions of people, to the destruction of Europe through war and the Holocaust.

And that is what this polish priest has done! So, since the petitioner is a german priest it became a case for a german court. He could take it to an EU court, anybody can do so, but as far as I know even as most EU countries have similar laws it isn't per se an EU-law.....

But I don't see it "squashed", because what the Pole did was blatantly and openly Volksverhetzung (after the german law).

More background info (in German though):

katholisch.de/artikel/30714-polnischer-theologe-oko-in-koeln-wegen-volksverhetzung-verurteilt

br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/straftat-volksverhetzung-ist-deutschland-besonders-streng,RkzrYrk

I wonder where his hate against homos is coming from? Is he known for speaking out against clerical catholic children rapists before? Does he mean that with "homosexual cliques" in the church? If so he should say so and he might even gain more support here...but in Germany such wording as he used can only raise eyebrows, especially coming from Oświęcim...maybe its all a big misunderstanding...

I guess he won't visit Germany anytime soon and he won't pay his fine....so that will be it!
Lyzko 32 | 7,922
11 Aug 2021 #13
@Rich, if someone openly promulgates and distributes leaflets willfully inciting senseless violence against innocents, such now automatically exceeds that person's "civil rights" and becomes a public safety issue! Let's not always play the Devil's Advocate-:)
jon357 69 | 18,420
11 Aug 2021 #14
inciting hatred

I'm not sure about the legal system in Germany, which has a similar system to Poland with a legal code, however in the UK, a lot would depend on the context in which he published it as well as the writer's or publisher's intention in publishing it.

I wonder where his hate against homos is coming from?

Or why he's promoting his hatred.
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #15
In the US, there are laws against those who are planning, agitating or conspiring to commit violence that is in itself a felony. Saying, I hate Muslims is not covered by any of them here. In fascist Europe, it is. End of the story.

To end up charged criminally, the conspiracy has to be specific. Let's kill whitey is not specific enough. Let's kill Mr. X is. Who gets the car and the gun is. Down you go and the 1st won't help any.
Miloslaw 12 | 3,324
11 Aug 2021 #16
@jon357

The fact is that freedom of expression is being controlled and censored across the world,not just in Europe but in America too.
This has to be stopped.
People have a right to be offended..... LOL !!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,664
11 Aug 2021 #17
...hmmm....imagine someone calls for your discrimination...gains supporters....builds a party around that....gets elected....now what?
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #18
gets elected....now what?

Nothing until a crime is committed. Might commit was never practiced even under the worst of systems. They would still have the decency to fabricate the necessary evidence.

One exception: mental institutions.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,664
11 Aug 2021 #19
Nothing until a crime is committed.

Once he is elected, has the power to make laws, has the control over police and military and media....it might be to late to do anything about his crimes.

Must we repeat history?
OP AntV 4 | 387
11 Aug 2021 #20
My main question is about this case in light of Article 11 as it is written. Not about the priest's opinion, so much. There seems to be a conflict between German law as BB explains it and Article 11. Because Article 11 does not seem to put the kind of limits on freedom of expression as does German law as described by BB. So, I'm wondering how this conflict gets resolved legally-if, indeed, there is a conflict.

I haven't read the article, and the links BB sent are in German-I'm one language trick pony, so I don't know what it's contents are.

I've have seen WAY TOO MANY instances of Catholics who have simply explained reasons for not accepting homosexuality as normative or critiquing homosexual activity/agendas without showing any hate toward homosexuals. Their only "offense" is not accepting homosexuality as legitimate or normative, yet they are accused of hatred. So, I'll reserve a judgment on this priests writings until I read it in English (that isn't translated by google).

As far as speaking out against priest who raped or molested children, he may be doing that in his speaking out against homosexuality in the priesthood. In America, over 80% of all known cases of abuse by priests were homosexual in nature, ie priests sexually abusing pubescent boys.

My guess is this Polish priest is bringing this topic up right now, because the Catholic Church in Germany is currently pushing a teaching on homosexuality that is contrary to Church teaching.; which is, by definition, heresy. It is known that there is a homosexual clique within the clergy and episcopate (eg the McCarrick Saga) that protects its own, so he may be up to something.
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #21
has the power to make laws,

and force lockdowns, unemployment, misery, suicides, hopelessness, drug addiction, destruction of the economy, unpayable debt...? That evil guy?

My main question is about this case in light of Article 11 as it is written.

With my total respect for you, to the ruling mob, laws are merely suggestions. Just ask Hillary.
Or are you playing naive? I do that, too, as a debating trick.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,664
11 Aug 2021 #22
So, I'm wondering how this conflict gets resolved legally-if, indeed, there is a conflict.

I don't think so.....he got judged in Germany using german law....thats it. The Pole can go to Brussels to demand Germany deleting the Volksverhetzungs-law so that his judgement gets deleted, but that the EU won't and can't do. After all it isn't a conflict between Germany or Poland...or some treaty Poland and Germany subscribed together....that Volksverhetzung stands because of german history...it is a kind of specific german law.

So I think the judgement will stay, he won't pay and that's it....

That evil guy?

Yes, but worse....people get wear a sign, to make it easier to be discriminated, and then get jailed and get murdered at last....all lawfully, that evil guy.....and it all started with open calls for discrimination.

It's a real question Rich, if you know that could happen...and it all started with abusing the freedom of speech....what now?
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #23
with open calls for discrimination.

Again, there is a call to discriminate and there is discrimination itself. One is freedom of speech, the other a crime. That's how a non-paranoid society deals with both.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,664
11 Aug 2021 #24
...no weaseling here! :)

Usually the call comes always first....speeches before the crimes...

This scenario I ask you about isn't exactly paranoid...it happened here...that's why we have this Volksverhetzungs-law!
Novichok 1 | 5,164
11 Aug 2021 #25
To wrap it up...There are three red lines we should not cross doing : (1) that which is stupid, (2) immoral, or (3) criminal.
The difference between the US and Europe is that under our laws, we have a right to cross 1 and 2 and be free of the heavy hand of the government. Your government, unbound by the US-style constitution, crawled out of its hole to do good deeds and there is no practical way to put that stinking mess back where it belongs which is enforcing only Line 3.

Your government is a nanny or a nun with a ruler and unmindful of the fact that it was the German government that was evil, not the people.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,664
11 Aug 2021 #26
...well....I need to think some more about that.

'night all
Ironside 51 | 11,510
12 Aug 2021 #27
this polish priest has done!

That is not some Polish priest BB. He is a profesor of Philosophy with a doctorate in Philosophy and another in Theology.

I wonder where his hate against homos is coming from?

what hate? I mean I don't know German well enough to read those articles but there must be some really good old lies at play there for you to came to that conclusion..

Is he known for speaking out against clerical catholic children rapists before? Does he mean that with "homosexual cliques" in the church?

Well, his article in question is where he writes about homosexual lobby within the RCC. That its brings harm to underage children.
It is about them as he out it that 'organized crime group' he used all those questionable by the German law expressions. Not towards all homosexuals.

German law it is what it is but that court seems to be a joke - a big fat joke!!!!

A peron that had an issue with his article German priest Wolfgang F. Rothe calls from a group in German CC that wants for the RCC to accept the same sex marriage. Which is not only heretical to the core but it rises a question - is our little Wolfgang not a part of the problem or a group that just have been called out?

Interesting that German legal system is supporting it. Don't give a rat ass about paedophiles? Figures..

So, I'm wondering how this conflict gets resolved legally-if, indeed, there is a conflict.

Here:
The German Constitutional Court and the Court of Justice of the European Union :
There is struggle over principle of primacy of the EU law over German claim of legal supremacy over EU laws. Seems to me Germany is wining.
OP AntV 4 | 387
12 Aug 2021 #28
I still can't find the article that caused the controversy--not even in German or Polish, let alone English.

However, I have found out more about the supposed hate-filled priest, Fr Dariusz Oko. I am quite familiar with him and his position on homosexuality within the Church and I've never heard him saying anything hateful. His whole starting point is about having a faithful Church that pastors the faithful to Christ. He has identified a major cause of the moral confusion within the Church coming from the homosexual lobby within the Church--he has stated this explicitly and has provided examples and stats to support his claims. He sees these priests and bishops within the homosexual clique as hypocrites who do untold damage to the veracity of the church's pastoral mission. I've never heard him call for the persecution of homosexuals or inciting violence against homosexuals.

Just recently it has been uncovered that apps for gay hookups have been used within the Vatican, in places where only clergy and official staff are allowed. Just recently the general secretary of the US Bishops Conference resigned because he was found to frequent gay hookup apps. Not to mention the many stories that have come to light since the turn of the millennium of homosexuals within the Church, including within the episcopacy.

I'd hope that anyone who may even disagree with the Church's teaching, hate the Church, or be full-fledged pro-homosexuality can see where this would be a problem of hypocrisy that does damage to the mission of an institution that does not accept homosexuality as normative.

open calls for discrimination.

The law, even good ones, are discriminatory. They are in place to ensure certain behaviors are protected and others are disallowed and penalized, i.e. discriminated against. So, it's not so much about discrimination as it is about the values of a society that are to be promoted and protected. So, can we not have an open exchange of ideas about discrimination without it devolving into hatred and violence? Can it not be a discussion that works out a society's values--arguing the pros and cons? I'd think, in a democracy, that's kind of how it works.

is our little Wolfgang not a part of the problem or a group that just have been called out?

Well, it's conjecture, but if I had to place odds, I'd go with 2:1 he is.

I'm still confused about how all the laws of EU and individual countries work. Is the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights actual law or more of a guiding principles type of thing?
Novichok 1 | 5,164
12 Aug 2021 #29
So, can we not have an open exchange of ideas about discrimination without it devolving into hatred and violence?

An excellent question to be asked the Antifa types who will do everything - including arson - to prevent your "open exchange of ideas" because they know that their ideas can be killed in two questions or less.
OP AntV 4 | 387
12 Aug 2021 #30
@Novichok

Well, they are enemies of free expression and an open exchange of ideas. Now, they do need a righteous ass-whooping.


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