Additional capacity for Nordstream II - Germany plans to buy hydrogen from Russia and use NS II for transport

You need allies to get your voice to be heard internationally, right?

Where will you find allies outside of the EU? The US? GB? Russia? China?

Whenever interests of some or other country would align with Poland's intertest.

Russia is a very regional player and I do not see much hope for them. Soon they will be selling their nukes for cash.

USA is an viable option for the near future.

the uk in somewhat limited capacity but not as an only option or a main ally.

China ? As an ally? I don't see it although some people are blinded by possibilities. The very nature of China exudes an alliance bar some temporary agreements.

Hungary, Turkey just from the top of my head....
Poland interests are east and south towards black sea, all countries in that region and between black sea and Adriatic.

@Ironside

How do you propose to upkeep the current level of cooperation within the V4 group or Intermarium, if Poland leaves the EU and most other Intermarium countries remain in the Union? OK, let's assume for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that Poland leaves; Hungary might leave but it's highly unlikely, Czechia - not a snowball's chance in hell they leave the Union, Slovakia and Lithuania are already in the Euro zone - they won't leave. Who else would leave the EU to form an alliance with us? Croatia? Please... We would be hopelessly isolated. Intermarium is only viable within the EU. Otherwise it's just a pipe dream. France wants their "Mediterranean Union", but also within the EU and nobody there seriously thinks of leaving the union.

But maybe Poland should go the Norway's or Switzerland's way? Sounds tempting, but we have neither Norway's oil nor Switzerland's monetary reserves and geographical safety. Some branches of industry could be rebuilt, and we wouldn't have to worry about farming (we could easily feed three Polands), but still full self-sustainability is a fantasy at the moment.

For better or worse, we are a part of a 500-million people Union, and the alternative of hopeless isolation and attempts at building equal partnership relations with the USA, China or Russia is, frankly, ridiculous.


This begs a serious question -- namely: WTF?

Everything you said above is correct but your efforts are futile in case of Ironside. That moron doesn`t accept obvious truths, though they have been explained to him over and over again for a decade now. His political views on Poland`s position in Europe are very infantile but he stubbornly sticks to them.


Because you forgot to use the Ignore function??? hahahaha Use it and it will relieve you of your suffering.

Indeed some old crap spewed by ignorant people which we can neatly surmise - about to sh..t your underwear.

But the question is serious Iron....TURKEY???

The current wannabe sultan is dreaming of rebuilding the Osman Empire....in what way would he an ally to Poland? To show a finger to the Czar in Moscow?

Even the current level of cooperation is not all that great if you look closely at it. V4 is just a plattform for mutual cooperation, not a deep politicalor security alliance and there are no attempts to deepen it. The same is even more true for Intermarium. And recent history shows us that the other member states are not willing to mindlessly follow Poland's wishes. They did not attempt to block Tusks' reelection and they now did not follow Poland' and Hungary's shameful blackmail attempt with the EU budget. Bu yeah, those countries will totally follow Poland in the future.

As for the future. Poland's foreign policy under PiS has been an utter disaster, Poland is now completely isolated and the consequences will likely soon become noticeable. The USA will continue to shift towards Asia, but now under a president who does not take kindly towards aspiring autocrats. The UK will do likewise, in their "Global Britain" strategy, and even when it returns to its' senses it will no longer be able to be a powerful voice in European affairs. Germany's next chancellor will most likely not be as indulgent as Merkel was and less willing to take crap from Warsaw. Merkel has always tried to placate Poland, a commendable approach but one that is increasingly hopeless in the face of a hostile Polish government. Of course PiS will just tell their voters that this is just another betrayal by their partners, and that Poland is once again forced to stand alone, but I think many Poles will be smart enough to see through those lies.

That is a perfect description of yourself and your views on the situation. . You are really frank.
Summarise.


Probably Iron is dreaming about the times when Poland was partitioned and the legend has it that the Turks didn`t accept that and there was always a free seat for a Polish diplomat in the sultan`s entourage.

As long as we are in the EU and have access to the common market, the lack of patting on the back from Germany is irrelevant. What's the worst thing that could happen? We would receive no structural funds? Farming subsidies for Poland would be withdrawn? So much the better. There is no such thing as "free money", and on many occasions the need to make use of available European funds made Polish local authorities take sensless loans that they will have to repay with hefty interest. Wealth comes from hard-work, research/science and thriftiness. Poland should refuse to take any "free money", but of course the corrupt politicians will never give them up, because they use it as a tool in their power games. However, for Poland in general, the worst-case scenario ("starving" us by taking away all "Euro-monies") might actually turn out to be the best case scenario. Economically - no danger.

Poland is interested in economic cooperation with the EU, in terms of common market import/export, no customs tariffs and that's it. Political cooperation is hardly possible, as we are a patriotic-minded, hard-working, disciplined, conservative Christian society, and to the west of us lie, by and large, vast spaces of Eurabia: muslim-importing, cultural marxism promoting countries, who find it appropriate to pull down their trousers, bend over, and request all sorts of tenderness from muslims, LGBTQRVSTSXYZ circles, feminists etc. etc. We shall require neither handshakes nor patting on the back from such people, thank you very much. Politically - no danger.

Maybe the next chancellor would like to try the old way of subduing Poland by military might. You could always try, but seeing that both Poland and Germany are in NATO, and the gap in technology between our armies is not nearly as large as in 1939, it might not be such a good idea at all. Militarily - no danger.

So, our friends and neighbours in Germany should understand that it is in everybody's best interest to cooperate in the economic (EU) and military (NATO) areas, but any dreams of turning Poland into a multi-kulti "paradise" should be abandoned, as well as attempts at meddling in Polish internal affairs (e.g. much needed judiciary system reform). When this is established, on the basis of mutual respect and benefits, then the future of Polish-German relations looks remarkably bright. We can be different and still love each other, nicht war?

The hysterics about the new "Nazi in the Reichstag" will resurface again....useless and embarrassing for both sides, but that should be it.

Highly unlikely. Poland even accepted a son of a Nazi (who served in Adolf Hitler's bunker at the end of the war) as a new German ambassador to Poland. :) Any other country might take it as an insult and slap to the face - Poland accepted the ambassador as a sign of good will, friendship, and willingness to put history aside. We really are a sensible and easygoing bunch, when you get to know us better. :)

Yes, it is very tempting to say that right now.

The Chinese flu crisis will have a significant impact on our lives. It showed us the true power of mass media for modeling views of people and creating a virtual reality for them to live in. It showed how gullible the masses are and how easy it is to fool them, scare them, and finally to control them.

But if you could take a wider look at the events beyond the last few months. "Refugee" crisis, for example, has directly lead to Brexit, it was the drop that turned the tide. It also reshaped the political scene in Poland which sharply changed its political course from heading towards Germany to the course on the US. And yes, it has also changed politics in Germany. A significant rise of AfD is one of the fruits of 2015.


Polexit would be the second-best option.

Destroying the EU and building a free trade agreement - without political and ideological chains - on its ashes would be the best option. A purely economic union not driven by neo-marxist ideology but by the profit and economic exchange and competition.

The EU will eventually collapse under pressure from its failed eurocurrency concept and huge public debt in eurozone countries like Italy. I don't see why we should not help to speed it up and save us some time?

Here's the concept for those who want to have a rookie and eat a cookie:

One concept, which can be done right and within the EU would be to create tax heaven in Poland to absorb a lion's share of direct investments in Europe.

If you take a look at stats you'll see that the UK and Ireland with very flexible tax rates have attracted exponentially more direct investments than the rest of old Europe.

Simply to keep the mandatory EU taxes, like VAT, but to significantly lower all other taxes which are not included in the EU regulation. This cannot be done with this government, mainly because that would mean greatly reducing the welfare state and the state beaurocracy that PiS loves, but with the guys from Konfederacja, it's more than possible. I think I don't have to add that there would be enormous pressure from the Western European zombies to abolish such free-market practices but it would be worth it.

To "starve financially" the old EU instead of Poland and Hungary, as Katarina Barley has gracefully put it. So even if we cannot leave the EU right now, due to the vox populi, I don't see why we shouldn't improve the situation in Poland at the expense of the old, unreformable socialist EU and to prepare a solid headstart when all of this inevitably collapse?

I was less thinking about money and more about the ability to shape the EU and European policies according to Poland's liking. Brexit and now the reaction to Covid will likely see a deeper integration effort, ahd who knows how the EU's relationship to Russia and China will develop. Poland has not done much in the last years to convince other countried to continue the confrontation with Russia, especially countries like Italy who used to have good economic ties with Russia. Poland will find it increasingly to difficult to find its' voice heard on issues it might find important. Which is a shame, because it is completely unnecessary and the consequence of PiS shortsighted and self-serving policies.


Of course and you can be sure will continue to support the democratic development of Poland and its' growing acceptance of religious and sexual minorities. On that you can count on the support of the entirety of Europe (sans Hungary).

Wouldn't that be nice? Every country giving its best in terms of industry, farming, science, hard work and honest competition, with no countries trying to impose ideological constraints on others or meddle in their internal affairs. That would be the EU of my dreams too. I don't see it happening though... too much rabid ideology out there. :-(


Poland had good economic ties with Russia as well. There aren't many countries who lost as much because of the sanctions as Poland, but some things are more important than money, don't you think so?


There's a fine line between "acceptance" and promotion, as far as sexual minorities are concerned. As form muslims (nobody is concerned about Lutherans of Buddhists :)), you can show the all the acceptance in the world, and invite them all to Germany, but don't expect Poland to do the same. That's all we ask.

Just another embarassing incident dor Poland. The man in question is a highly qualified ambassador with a deep knowledge on Eastern Europe and who also served previously in countries like Russia and the Czech Republic who never objected to him. But of course PiS takes issue against someone who was born more than a decade after WWII and who has shown a great commitment to democracy and freedom throughout his career just because on account of his father was. Then again, perhaps the fact that the son of a Nazi could be a true democrat while they themselves are trying to undermine democracy might be too uncomfortable for PiS.


It worked for Ireland so far because large companies could use it as a tax heaven and as a gateway for the common market. Ireland is however under growing pressure to change its' exploitive system and there are now also efforts to tax large companies like Dtarbucks and Amazon where they actually make their profit, thereby making Ireland's model no longer viable in the first place.


No it didnt. Decades of lies by the British press over Europe, demagogues like Farage and Oppprtunists like Johnson lead to Brexit.


Not just tempting, it is the truth. The refugee crisis might have had some effect on countries that were ironically uneffected by it because demagogues like Orban und PiS exploited, but that is more of a damning verdict over those countries. But aside from that, nothing has changed. There was no populist surge in other countries, and Corona has shown how oberblown most concerns were compared to a true crisis.


You can't "promote" sexual preferences, sexual developmemt is something no one has influence. All you can do is telling people that it is perfectly acceptable to be e.g. gay, and that gay couples enjoy the same rights as hetero couples do.

Not for Poland. Would Germany send a son of Nazi officer and Hitler's yeoman as an ambassador to Israel? Certainly not. However, they saw it perfectly fit to send such man to Poland. Politics is also about symbols and gestures and "clumsy" is the lightest word to be used in this case. Putting German clumsiness (to put it very mildly) aside, Poland reluctantly accepted the new ambassador, showing good will and maturity, despite the obvious inappropriateness of the German choice of ambassador.

Anyway - a minor issue. A symbolic one, but minor.


That's exaclty what happens in Poland. :)


Well, that is debatable from purely utilitarian point of view. Hetero couples produce children - the future of any state. Homo couples, so far, have been unable to do the same. Hence, some rights have been granted to hetero families and not to the same-sex unions.

....I have to agree here....both accounts....what Barley uttered and the total german misjudging what Poles might think of that ambassadors family history had been clumsy...but the oversensitivity of Poland is not helping. Sometimes it seems Poland is only waiting to be slighted and always thinks only the worst...as if everybody and his grandmom is only out to get Poland.

That is something we both have to work on....next year. So...just in case we don't hear from each other till tomorrow: HAPPY NEW YEAR! :)

Guilty as charged.


Spending 1000 years stuck between Germans and Russians, with occasional invasions from the north (Sweden) and south (Austria, Turkey) can give you this slight, tiny measure of paranoia.


Happy New Year! May it be better for both our countries! :)

Not just to Poland. Also to the Czech Republic
and Russia, who also suffered from the Nazis, and none of which complained. And why would they, the man in question is a very accomplished diplomate. The question "What did you do during the war" might be a reasonable one. But "What did your parents do before you were born?" is not.


The only inappropiate thing here was Poland's reaction. An utter disgrace to judge someone by the deeds of his father (who was not even a prominemt Nazi) and not his own. Again, the ambassador was born more than a decade after the war ended and as a spotless record. It would be one thing if he were known to be hostile towards Poland, but that is not the case.


Let us be honest here. You didn't write this with a straight face. It is one thing to be loyal to your government, but you can admit when they are being unreasonable and silly.

Lets be real. What Poland did was completely unprecedented. You accuse Germany of being "clumsy" when Poland suddenly objected to something that was never a problem before in any country for that matter and thus could not have been predicted by Germany. Like many previous incidents, that was just a ploy from PiS to whip up an anti-German frenzy for domestic reasons.


There are already ways for them to have children and even if they do not have children, they should have the same rights as childless couples have (e.g. paying less taxes and of course adoption). That is all they ask for.

1. Czech Republic:

a) they didn't suffer nearly as much from the Nazis as Poland did
b) they have no balls to oppose Germany whilst Polish balls are, and always have been, of rather considerable size

2. Russia:

a) Why would they oppose a Nazi ambassador? They started the war together with the Nazis by ganging up on Poland.
b) the later lovers' quarrel between two totalitarian states doesn't change the fact that Commies and Nazis were both made of the same clay


So, you would send him as an ambassador to Israel? I'd like to see that happen. *rolls eyes*


Yeah, about that. There's very little reason for PiS to "whip up anti-German frenzy", simply because there are very few people in Poland with anti-German mindset. They can still play on the fears of the older generation, and they occasionally do, but in reality they do everything to imitate Germany (not the Germany of today, of course, but the ordoliberalismus of 1960s).


Why should two men pay less taxes only because they have sexual relationship? It is rather unclear to me. Heterosexual marriages pay less taxes because a heterosexual marriage produces (in most cases) children, without which no country would have any future. Simple as that.


A debatable issue from the point of view of scientific research in the areas of child psychology and sociology. I would be very reluctant to experiment in this matter on a large scale until reliable scientific data is available on the effects of children being raised by homosexual parents. We must, first and foremost, take the well-being of children under consideration, rather than whims of homosexual couples.

Of course, Israel never made a fuss about such things, and it has in general been very understanding in the last 2 decades towards Germany. Merkel was even allowed as the first head of government to hold a speech in German in the Knesset.


They have been as vocal as Poland in the past. But like Russia they had no reason to oppose a man who has a spotless record. Because again, declining an ambassador because of who his parents were might have been a convenient excuse in medieval Europe, but not in suposedly modern country. It is silly and again an example for how PiS shames its' country.


And yet they do it constantly. The same happened with those unfounded reparation issues. It goes back to when they first were in power in 2005.


You give the same benefits to childless couples, even those who qre too old to have children. Personally I'd prefer it if marriage offers no tax benefits, but having children does, that would be the fairest solution and one I'd like to see in Germany as well.


There is nothing debateable about this from a scientific point of view. Homosexual couples should be subjected to the same kind of inquiry as hetero couples before the can adopt a child, which should be a sufficient safeguard. Aside from that, there is nothing to suggest why children would be worse off with a e.g. a gay couple than a hetero couple. After all, there is no fundamental objection to children growing up with e.g. only one parent in case of divorce. So having one mother and no father is supposedly fine, but having two mothers and no father is supposedly wrong?

The huge reparations might have contributed to the level of understanding. *epic eye roll*


Modernity is overrated and medieval age underrated.

Anyways, medieval or not, we are sensitive to this kind of stuff and Germany should at least take this into account.


Yes, that would make sense.


I think you'd be wrong here; I read about it some time ago, but don't have any links ready at the moment. I'll try to investigate the matter further.

Strange that the same did not happen with Poland after all the German support it received. Then again, I shouldn't judge Poland solely on PiS' conduct.


More like you are told to be sensitive by PiS about this. This is more about Poland needing to grow up and less about Germany needing to be considerate. There is no good reason to oppose any ambassador who was born after 1945 because of his past. People are not their parents.


Maybe, but I havent read anything to the contrary.

You would be surprised how much has Poles' attitude towards Germany changed in the past 30 years. This tendency will most likely continue in the future (as long, of course, as Germany refrains from lecturing us and trying to meddle in our internal affairs). See the video from 10:40 to 11:12 :)

youtu.be/Hn8XXPl1vjU

Anyways, Tacitus, Happy New Year and see you in 2021.

They are on their way to became a regional power. Right now they are already a major player. So far their interest and Poland are somewhat align. They want to kick influence of Germany and old EU to the curb, show Moscow their place and that is also in Poland's interest.

Other than being NATO member Poland doesn't have intertest in the Middle east aside from keeping Tukey and Iran somewhat keep in check each other.

Whilst As you said Turkey is mostly about that region, while Poland is about area to the north. No major conflicts of interests and that is good.


I'm shaking in my boots. Save that scaremongering for another time. I agree that PiS policy especially towards EU not that great as they give in all the time without gaining anything at all. They should have put their foot down long time ago. Rather than sell out Poland's independence for chump change and mythical friends.


No, I'm correct.


you must be joking. Are you laughing now?


Sure, just all the money foreign companies make in Poland should be keep in Polish banks and reinvest or spend in Poland? If not all assets of a company that breaks that rule would be sized with the full support of the EU and Germany. Would that be OK? I mean you so worry about so called minorities let put them laws as you want them just for that minor change in law.


Not really BB. Germany can send anyone they want as their representative if they choose that block it their prerogative. Some people might read something into it. Polish gov reaction (if they reacted in any way) was silly. They just that way react to some BS and take in the a.. some serous stuff. I'm not pleased with the current establishment at all.

Happy new year too, and to all the other posters here, may the next one be more pleasant than the last one.


Is that why Erdogan has been kowtowing before Putin in the last few years, buying Russian rockets and in general being subservient to Russia's interest in the region just to get a slice of Syria.

I would argue that Erdogan's foreign has been a string of failures in the last few years. He supported the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, which was ousted by a regime that is now hostile towards Turkey. He hoped to discredit MbS from Saudi-Arabia but had to see that oil is more important mlrals for many, with MbS being now his mortal enemy. He supported the rebells against Assad, who is now again ruling over most of Syria. Worse, his support for radical islamists were a large embarassment for Erdogan. Even the Kurds are now stronger and better supplied than a few years ago. He got a small slice of Syria, which will drain Turkeys ressources with no tangible benefit. He also got Turkey involved into the mess in Libya with no apparant way out.

Not to mention how bleak things look for the Turkish economy. It was already bad before the Covid pandemie, and it has now gone to a point where he had to fire his finance minister/son-in-law/heir apparant. In short I am not impressed.

So what? Germany claims to put sanctions against Russia but go full-steam with the northstream.
Fight against racism and for gays 'rights' but at the some time build a car producing facility near Chinese concentration camp to use prisoners as free work force.


Well, he made Germany pay up and forced them into corner by sending stream of so called refugees their way.


Oh it struck me now. Our points of view differ because you are talking from position of Poland being German colony already whilst I'm talking about Poland being in the process of becoming one. Sorry for being slow.

---Now it makes more sense/

lol take away Poland's market. Germany like silicon valley is like 30 yrs ahead anything Poland can muster up to the world especially when it comes to software development or the gaming and startup industries. ive been to Berlin its like San Francisco and a civilized and awesome place to live. im actually saving up to move there asap. on the other hand allegro tech and anything Poland does including cd projekt red producing a subpar game only by hype that is tanking soon and investors are suing Poland over it is like 30 yrs behind amazon, google, apple etc. companies that want nothing to do with Poland. they dont even have amazon or an apple store in Poland. take that to the bank. you dont get yelled at for loitering in Germany and sitting on an outside bench or stool like a bunch of savaged and barbarians existing in such a country as Poland especially in this area called Plac Zbawiciela in Warsaw full of such savages and know it all and mr and miss rights all the time and everything is better in Germany especially the job market. Germany is such q superior culture you can actually grab free fruit off stalls and can pay with coins inside a little slot. everything is for the people there. nobody gets stalked or harassed or anything like that for sitting on an empty lot of a bench or seat like in Plac Zbawiciela and Poland as a whole.

" Well, he made Germany pay up and forced them into corner by sending stream of so called refugees their way."

this is the same strategy Cuba used with Fidel but worse due to him freeing up cubas prisons and sending cons and con men and female boxers like the dirk their way the way of the u.s. i mean. what a bunch of scum huh?

Go troll somewhere else.. I don't need to hear a point of view of an opinioned fool!

@Ironside, don't waste your time, and precious space on this thread, on replying to him.

He is very good at discussing with himself anyway, so he shouldn't feel left out when ignored.