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Additional capacity for Nordstream II - Germany plans to buy hydrogen from Russia and use NS II for transport


Spike31 2 | 2,098
28 Sep 2020 #91
@BratwurstBoy It looks more like an offer of a bribe to me: let us finish Ribentroop - Molotov pipe against the will of Central and Eastern Europe and we will buy your LPG.

The harsh truth is that we don't need a stronger and politically independent Germany in Europe, but a weaker one and dependant on the US. Once Germany would feel too strong some stupid thoughts may pop into German heads [again].
AntV 2 | 167
29 Sep 2020 #92
Isn't that racketeering? As in..."If you don't pay me enough I can hurt you?" ???

Nah, it's not dishonest, it's one estranged friend saying to another "why in the hell are you playing footsies with the mutual foe up the street when I got what they got and am willing to give you some?" It's a rap on the knuckles and a reminder not to stray from the friendship and get chummy with the foe up the street.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
30 Sep 2020 #93
but a weaker one and dependant on the US

Yeah....tell that Trump!

He is achieving exactly the contrary with his antagonistics against Germany and the EU generally....people in Germany and the EU are forced to think about independence from the US...that's why his behaviour about the NATO 2 percent is so dumb in the long run!

It's a rap on the knuckles and a reminder not to stray from the friendship

Well...before Trump all (okay, most) was well with this friendship.... :)
johnny reb 28 | 5,248
30 Sep 2020 #94
..before Trump

Before Trump we had wishy washy political presidents with no balls that didn't want to make waves.
(If nothing changes, nothing changes)
When Trump came along he said, "you are done playing us" and gave you a wake up call that America was done picking up your tab.

You were playing the piano at both ends ever since 1945.
Trump gave you a choice, either pony up with America and start paying your fair share to NATO, friends aside.
That slap in the face to Merkel was a wake up call of "Game Over" riding America's coat tails at America's expense.
Now you want to send Billions of Euro's to the enemy by buying their only resource, gas, to support their military, that we defend you from, and not pay your fair share to NATO days are over.

Time you start sacrificing for your freedoms in same way all Americans sacrifice for theirs.
God bless Trump !
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
30 Sep 2020 #95
Before Trump we had wishy washy political presidents

.....who made America great and did build during decades a network of friends and allies all over the world.

Spot the difference to now!

An isolated US with grudges held everywhere against it's president is a weak America! Nobody wants that, besides your enemies....
johnny reb 28 | 5,248
12 Oct 2020 #96
Poland fines Russia's Gazprom $7.6 billion over pipeline saying anti-trust laws were broken.
Crow 146 | 9,097
21 Oct 2020 #97
Take them more then 7,6 bilion. Siberia belong to all Slavs.

And pray for Putin to become Tzar. Well informed sources says Serbian lobby stays behind him. Navalni is German agent. Navalni don't like Poland.
Ironside 50 | 10,934
22 Oct 2020 #98
Siberia belong to all Slavs.

rather to China soon
Crow 146 | 9,097
22 Oct 2020 #99
Not if China wants to live. Think. They aggravate ties with Russia and Anglos and Germanics grill them.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
16 Nov 2020 #100
Merged:

Nord Stream 2: USA are preparing tougher sanctions



- and it doesn't get any better with Biden

thecanadian.news/2020/11/16/nord-stream-2-usa-are-preparing-tougher-sanctions-and-it-doesnt-get-any-better-with-biden/

...Is that the end of Nord Stream 2? Although President-elect Joe Biden is considered far more pro-European than Donald Trump, the toughest sanctions to date against the Baltic Sea pipeline are likely to come under him....

...now it becomes difficult for Merkel....denying Trump was easy, but Biden?

bild.de/politik/ausland/politik-ausland/neue-sanktionen-kommen-im-januar-joe-biden-will-putins-nord-stream-2-fuer-immer-73926586.bild.html
Spike31 2 | 2,098
16 Nov 2020 #101
@BratwurstBoy

She must wait for Hillary to come to power :-)

Jokes aside, no matter who will be residing in the White House the most fundamental US national interests will be pursued.
Biden will not lift the sanctions imposed on Russia. And will not let the NS to be finished because it hits the US economic interests and political influence in Europe.

He will also continue with hard politics towards China.
But he may ease up the pressure on Germany to spend more on military, which in long run is a good news for Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
16 Nov 2020 #102
She must wait for Hillary to come to power :-)

Merkel is (most probably) bowing out next year....time is running out for that....

But he may ease up the pressure on Germany to spend more on military,

Yesterday I read an article in the german media that the SPD is now supporting too the real building of a real EU army....Trump definitely helped to change the mood on that difficult topic for good. Away from relying mainly on the US and NATO for our security, forward to taking things into EU hands.

So, even if Biden let's up on the "2%" it could very well be that Germany might still pay alot more into the military as before, only not necessarily into the german but the european military.

He will also continue with hard politics towards China.

*knocks on wood*
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
17 Nov 2020 #103
Keep in mind that the project is not just depending on Merkel. Most parties are still in favour of NS, I believe the only politican who clearly said that we should stop it is Norbert Röttgen, and his chances to become the leader of the CDU, and possibly chancellor are very low.
Spike31 2 | 2,098
17 Nov 2020 #104
Away from relying mainly on the US and NATO

I'm sure that Poland will object to that and will block, with the help of the US, such plans. And for a good reason. NATO with the leading American role is a guarantee of peace in Europe.

The EU has too much power already and giving those Brussel beaurocrats, which are heavily influenced by the Franco-German alliance, military force to command would be like giving an ape a razor blade to play with.

Germany should be content with having an economically privileged role in the EU and should dream about the bundeswehr on steroids. Because instead of gaining more may lose it all. If you try to swallow too much you can choke on it :-)
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
17 Nov 2020 #105
Honestly I can very much live with the status quo. Let the Americans pay for the security in Eastern Europe while we can spend money on more important things. Just keep in mind that once the Americans lose their interest - the next isolationist in the White House is inevitable down the line - it will Poland who will be exposed to the risk, not Germany.
Poloniusz 4 | 571
17 Nov 2020 #106
while we can spend money on more important things.

Like abortions for ethnic German women and welfare for your "new Germans" economic migrants hailing from the dysfunctional third world.

What's it like thinking you are so virtuous and clever while the rest of the world is laughing in disbelief at your lunacy?

it will Poland who will be exposed to the risk, not Germany.

Your threats are internal and you are already exposing Poland to that risk.
Spike31 2 | 2,098
17 Nov 2020 #107
Fortunately, in Poland, there's no political power - be it left, right, or center - that would undermine the role and importance of NATO in keeping the peace in Europe.

Even the dullest EU-optimists from the left side of the political spectrum - and I'm really talking about the real hardcore leftist morons here you know the kind that would go to a deviant (I think it's called "love") parade or celebrate the 1st of May on the streets - would say that NATO guarantees stability on our continent and it is a very beneficial pact for Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
17 Nov 2020 #108
Honestly I can very much live with the status quo

Most Germans can...:)
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
17 Nov 2020 #109
Like abortions for ethnic German women

Don't worry, we offer abortions to thousands of Polish women too every year ;)

it is a very beneficial pact for Poland.

It is a very beneficial pact for Europe in general. But there lies the problem, how much longer will the USA be willing to pay for it?

Germany has a plan B with the treaty of Aachen which extends French nuclear deterrent on Germany. What is Poland's plan B once the USA pulls out of Europe.
Ironside 50 | 10,934
17 Nov 2020 #110
will the USA be willing to pay for it?

Well seems like Germany wants Poland to pay. \PiS gov is a bunch of morons that agreed to that EU debt. WTF?
Spike31 2 | 2,098
17 Nov 2020 #111
But there lies the problem, how much longer will the USA be willing to pay for it?

That's one of the reasons why the UK and Poland spend over 2% of its GDP on the military. In Poland, it was voted to raise it up to 2.5% by the end of the decade and there are voices to boost it to 3% instead, especially now when Poland is about to buy F-35s, Patriots, and Himars and to start developing a new MBT (a next-gen Tank) most likely in cooperation with South Korea.

And the money spent on the military is not wasted: it boosts heavy industry, research, development, and innovation. And the most important thing is that increases safety and stability. The US spends ~3.5% of GDP on the military btw.

A word about the "EU army"

I've read an article about it today on a respectable Polish military portal Defence24 and the author and 95% of comments are VERY skeptical about this "EU army" project. Usually, there are different opinions about subjects in comments. But under this article comments are almost unanimously negative.

defence24.pl/niemieccy-socjaldemokraci-chca-armii-komisji-europejskiej-komentarz
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
17 Nov 2020 #112
Interesting is also that chapter:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_army#Support_and_opposition

Even Orban is pro EU army....against are most notably Trump and Nigel Farage....the former soon no longer president and the latter's whole country has no say in it anymore whatsoever.

But one has to say, without Trump and his anti-EU antics and his harking on about the 2%, I doubt that topic would stand even to discussion....

What will Poland do should most of Europe decide to build a real EU army? Stand aside?
Spike31 2 | 2,098
17 Nov 2020 #113
When it comes to military alliance Poland should remain on the US-UK side instead of the Franco-German axis. I have no doubt about it.

And what's especially dangerous about this "EU army" idea is that it will be independent of the national jurisdiction of EU member states. The EU Defence Commission would be able to send soldiers (including Polish soldiers) even against the will of Poland if a simple majority (that is just over 50%) agree to do so.

It is a dangerous idea and another attempt towards the federalization of the EU.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
17 Nov 2020 #114
If Biden follows Trump and retreats from the international battlefields there might be no longer any other axis for Poland to join than the EU axis....
dolnoslask 6 | 3,539
17 Nov 2020 #115
join than the EU axis....

Europe has done nothing but cause war and grief , The US spilled the blood of its finest twice to save Europe from its own stupidity , to talk about some European axis is crazy, Europe cannot be trusted , the last two world wars was due to European imperialist greed , the future wars will be over Europe's desire to spread / force its ideology over other nations.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
17 Nov 2020 #116
The US spilled the blood of its finest twice to save Europe from its own stupidity

....yeah...well....that was before Trump!

I'm not sure Trump would have stood on the right side if asked...especially not the second time.
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
17 Nov 2020 #117
It is honestly surprising to see how shortshighted some people are in this case. I mean do you really think - despite the fact that every president starting with Obama including Biden - has stated that the USA has to divert its' attention from Europe towards Asia, that the Americans will be willing and able to guarantee Europe's security in say 10-20 years?
Spike31 2 | 2,098
18 Nov 2020 #118
@Tacitus, yes if it's going to be in the US national interest.

Sinking the NSII project and in turn, selling more liquified gas to Europe would be in the US interest. And once it keeps flowing it would be in their interest to keep it that way. Poland, for various reasons, doesn't mind buying American gas and Germany will have to.

That's a free lesson of realpolitik from Spiky.
Spike31 2 | 2,098
18 Nov 2020 #119
@Tacitus, I have to admit that I wanted to provoke you a bit with my last post. And I did that to demonstrate how Germany is using its advantageous position in the EU to influence the others and have it their way.

Once an economically, politically, and militarily stronger country does the same to you it doesn't feel good, right?

But I was serious when it comes to liquified gas from the US. Poland has currently a long-term gas contract with Russia. Russia, in the past, has used the difficult position of Poland and seized the opportunity to dictate a very high price (one of the highest in Europe in fact) for its natural gas exported to Poland. Who could have thought back then that one day it will bite them in the ass?

The contract ends in 2022 and, when compared to current Russian prices, American gas is not that expensive at all. Poland has decided to not sign any new gas contract with Russia. And it needs to be noted that so far Poland has bought about 10% of total Russian gas export per annum. 10% less gas money for Kremlin, which accounts for less military spending.

Import of an LNG from the US, but also other destinations, plus Baltic Pipe project from Norway will provide enough gas for Poland and even some extra for resale to V4 countries.

And also without NSII Russia would not be able to bypass Ukraine. In turn, they won't be able to escalate the conflict in Donbas and build a land corridor from mainland Russia to Crimea. Which I have no doubt they would be very tempted to build if they could do, give that Ukraine cut off the water supply to Crimea.
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
19 Nov 2020 #120
which accounts for less military spending.

As if autocrats ever cared about balance sheets regarding military spending. The economic problems of the last few years have not affected Russian military spending, and if necessary, Putin will introduce welfare cuts and defend them with security needs.

Besides, what you are writing here are short- to midterm concerns. When we think about security, we need to think long-term instead. And it is pretty clear that the USA is losing interest in Europe. Russia is no longer their number one concern, and the threat of China will only grow in the future and likely demand America's full attention. Yeah, selling some gas is nice, but the USA will likely not be in this buisness for very long and even then it hardly justifies the kind of military spending it requires to deter Russia.

The thought that the USA - who are already unhappy with this situation - will be able and willing to guarantee Eastern Europe in say 20-30 years, while possibly also having to defend South Korea and Taiwan is very optimistic indeed. And things went rarely well for Poland when they relied on optismism. Just look at PiS European policies. They thought it was a good idea to rely on the UK, and now they are without any mayor allies in the EU.

Feel free to disagree and present me with your arguments, this is really one subject on which I am very relaxed about since Germany's position is very secure regardless. Though I'd feel very bad about Poland if things went wrong.


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