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Additional capacity for Nordstream II - Germany plans to buy hydrogen from Russia and use NS II for transport


Oathbreaker 4 | 418
30 Jul 2021 #271
On the other hand, should Poland be seen as an unreliable EU member.... (...)the polish plight too...

It goes both ways honey! Remember the times before conflicts in Georgia or Ukraine? Poland saying, beware of the Russian bear! The eastern flank gotta get safer! What was the answer then? WARMONGERING!

We all know what happened later!
Now also, if Poland would point fingers they would simply dismiss it most likely as selfish, egotistic, or not thinking about the best interests of the EU. Or trying to create strife and conflict, or ruining trade and business and energy supplying for the EU as a whole! We ain´t stupid bro, we know what is coming
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #272
"honey" ??? :)

Now also, if Poland would point fingers they would simply dismiss it......

No! You totally underestimate how unpopular that pipeline has become in the whole EU (and in Germany now too)....it is now only Merkel still pushing for it...

(I wonder what she told Biden to make im agree to it!)
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
30 Jul 2021 #273
"honey" ??? :)

American slang, as we are still part of the same union I considered it comicaly appropriate for the purposes of drama/tragedy/comedy and underlining the closeness between you and me as friends here on this forum while also the shared link Poland and Germany currently has as states. It was simply shorter to write it as honey is something positive and even healing while also used in mead, underlining the importance of the said word in this context and mutual relations.

No! You totally underestimate how unpopular that pipeline has become in the whole EU

Hmm
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
30 Jul 2021 #275
@Bratwurst Boy
You are publically embaressing me. Knock it off
I do appreciate you liking me as well. No boots intended
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,397
30 Jul 2021 #276
Just don't overreact...

Poland never overreacts - it is against our nature. We are simply showing our righteous indignation.

if Poland would had used the recent decades better for networking in Brussels (...) that pipeline would be long dead by now...

Probably.

I blame the PO government - their complete and utter unwillingness (bordering on contempt) to help the poorer strata of Polish society brought PiS to power and the problems with the EU started then.
Spike31 3 | 1,813
30 Jul 2021 #277
Instead of thinking about some exotic one-sided alliances, it's better to look a bit closer.

One of the often omitted directions is our fellow NATO member: Turkey. Turkey has a capable, second-largest army in NATO. It could be also used as leverage against both Germany (there's a large Turkish diaspora in Germany and both countries are in political conflict) but also Russia cause their geopolitical interests often collide, which was visible in the recent conflict in the Caucasus. And Poland doesn't have any underlying political problems with Turkey.

Furthermore, the Turkish army and society are not pussified like the Western European ones and are willing to accept war causalities. That makes them more credible military allies in case of a real conflict.

That's why I think that president Duda did well inviting Erdogan to Warsaw in 2017 when other EU leaders have ostracized him. And a recent purchase of combat proved Turkish attack drones was also a good move.

What Poland has to offer Turkey? We can act as a bridge between them and the EU. Poland should push for Turkey to join the UE and be vocal about it. They are not a threat to us.
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
30 Jul 2021 #278
@Spike31
They assassinate Christian clergy and are very one sided in any relationships, only need to look at their romantic relations with foreigners and their attitude to any Turk being of another faith compared to secular or Muslim.

It isn't viable as a long term relationship, but only as co-operative in individual cases and balancing out hostile states. Besides it would be problematic with Ukraine, and Balkan states most likely.

It doesn't seem realistic
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #279
Poland should push for Turkey to join the UE and be vocal about it.

Yuck!

That would mean that the most populous country will be an islamist one...nice going for the future of the EU!

Not to mention that for that Turkey needs unanimity....and as far as I know most EU members are dead set against Turkey, not only Greece. To still push for Erdoganistan would only further isolate Poland in the EU!
Spike31 3 | 1,813
30 Jul 2021 #280
..nice going for the future of the EU!

The future of the EU in its current form is a leftoid beaurocradic federation of socialist Europe. The prospect I truly despise. If the addition of Turkey would make this rotten structure collapse so much for the better.

But don't worry, it wouldn't be so dramatic. It would just introduce a new set of challenges for the "EU core" and they wouldn't have time nor strength to discipline Poland and Hungary.

be problematic with Ukraine

No, it wouldn't be. Ukraine is already buying military technology from Turkey* and is cooperating on a military level in order to face threats from Russia in Donbas.

tass.com/politics/1281075

It doesn't seem realistic

It's not only realistic but it's already a reality. Two NATO members with no colliding political or economic goals, and no territorial claims, working together. It doesn't get more real than that.

I'm deeply against 'multikulti' in Poland but I'll say it again: Turkey is not a threat to Poland in any way and the natural destination for Turks in the EU is Germany which spread its legs wide open for millions of muslims, arabs and turd worlders already.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #281
The future of the EU in its current form is a leftoid beaurocradic federation of socialist Europe.

Interesting tidbit....one of the most ardent and outspoken adversaries and critics of this pipeline in Germany are the rather woke, leftist Greens....

Turkey is not a threat to Poland in any way

Very shortsighted thinking! And a kind of wishful thinking Poland might be for always stay backwards and economically weak. In this global world where people can move freely you can only keep to yourself if you are seen as "undesirable" or build walls (which might lead to totally different problems).

The moment it rises up and offers chances and work foreigners will flock to Poland as they are now come to Germany, and yes they will bring their culture with them....and what do you want to tell your turkish buddy then? How will you justify your closed borders to those masses of turkish Gastarbeiters knocking on your door?
Spike31 3 | 1,813
30 Jul 2021 #282
The moment it rises up and offers chances and money they will flock to Poland

Before that hypothetical moment in the future one of the two things will happen first:

> There will be no more EU (and no more open borders)
or
> There will be no more Poland in the remains of the EU (and a hard border on Oder river)

And just like Germany doesn't give a sh*t about the interest of Poland, Poland should do exactly the same.

Keeping Poland weak is in the interest of Germany and weakening Germany is in the long-term interest of Poland. As simple as that. It was always like that and it will be in foreseeable future.
Ironside 53 | 12,357
30 Jul 2021 #283
Poland just needs to tighten up 3 Seas Initiative,

not if we are in the EU,.

We need an ally and China

Do we really? China is OK to make some deals but to be an ally - nah, need to be really careful about it..

the EU support

ahem what support? no need to worry about things that don't exist.

should Poland be seen as an unreliable EU member..

In other words do as you are told and no funny stuff or else..
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
30 Jul 2021 #284
ahem what support?

Yupp, a lot of EU members. Especially the public are quite delusional about the magnitude of the importance from the direct financial investments coming from the EU itself. We sure are greatful for it, but thinking it´s some sort of life or death lifeline is highly delusional. It simply shows to what degree and if the EU really wants Poland to be part of the EU or not, the numbers in it are purely symbolic as a means of comparison with other EU states. Sort of how much do we get out of this "symbolic cake" in percentages among the EU states that are on the recieving end.

The the real help is all the trade and investments in Poland, which will be gradually like a domino effect if the funds are reduced or Poland is cut off from recieving any help. It´s political will that is more important from the EU as a whole, rather then the € itself.
amiga500 4 | 1,520
30 Jul 2021 #285
the direct financial investments coming from the EU itself.

Bingo. The European Commissions own research showed that out of the funds coming to Poland, 80-90 percent went back to German companies. ..
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #286
There will be no more EU (and no more open borders)

It will still be a global world....the US and the UK are no EU members and they still are overrun....it's not an EU "problem"!

It comes with success! *shrugs*

Keeping Poland weak is in the interest of Germany and weakening Germany is in the long-term interest of Poland.

Yeah...that thinking really did it for Poland in the past....

But hey....after your theory that should help Germany with its immigrant problem...they will leave a weak Germany and move over to strong Poland then! :)
Spike31 3 | 1,813
30 Jul 2021 #287
Yeah...that thinking really did it for Poland in the past....

same for Germany...but that's good. The reminder of the past events will keep this competition somewhat civilized.

That puts Poland is a somewhat favorable position: Poland wants to go up and it's Germany that needs to put us down without using brute force cause would be disastrous for both sides of the equation.

Simply put: Poland has less to lose and much more to gain.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #288
Poland wants to go up and it's Germany that needs to put us down

I'm sure you have made it yourself quite comfy in this world of yours of old trusted and well known enemies....but I assure you that isn't the reality!

The future world will be ruled by the really big players....neither of us is one. China will be, the EU will hopefully also be....Germany has acknowledged that and wants to strengthen the EU....common army....more political integration...even closer economical cooperation...a federation at the end, who knows....

You on the other hand want to fight the EU? Go it alone again? Hoping for far away allies again? Repeat old diplomatic errors again? Don't blame the consequences on others....again...
Spike31 3 | 1,813
30 Jul 2021 #289
I'm sure you have made it yourself

I'll elaborate:

By "putting Poland down" I mean keeping the Polish economy down mainly as a producer of components and skilled workforce for the German industrial complex instead of it being an independent and competitive sector of the Polish economy.

This is slowly changing now with large sums of money being invested in the military industry in Poland. The military industry not only guarantees political and military independence but it's a major source of innovation, taxes, and well-paid jobs.

And energiewende combined with CO2 tax is the next step calculated at destroying CEE energy sector largely based on coal. And replacing it with German solar energy and...re-exported Russian gas so conveniently delivered by Germany to its neighbors. That is also one of the main reasons why Germany is so concerned about Polish nuclear energy plans.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #290
By "putting Poland down" I mean keeping the Polish economy down

How should we do that?

With feeding Poland with a gazillion Euros out of Brussels pockets? Do you mean that with "keeping down"?

but it's a major source of innovation, taxes, and well-paid jobs.

Imagine that on a european scale!

And for your coal....there is no chance to become a modern country as long as you are still dependent on coal...join the future!
amiga500 4 | 1,520
30 Jul 2021 #291
How should we do that?

Poland became biggest source of trucking companies in europe. The EU Commission neutered them thanks to German and French lobbying. Same with menthol cigarettes. Same with Timmermans saying Nuclear energy is not 'green'. it happens all the time.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #292
The EU Commission neutered them thanks to German and French lobbying.

How so? After these articles from 2020 and 2021 they still rule:

obserwatorfinansowy.pl/in-english/poland-as-the-largest-hauler-in-the-eu-road-transport/

rmx.news/article/poland-is-the-largest-road-transport-carrier-in-the-eu/

And what about menthol cigarettes? And Timmermans....that all keeps the polish economy down? Really???

Pray you never get real problems!

For example Poland deciding to go it alone and become an enemy of the EU....and Germany etc. putting fines on polish truckers for using their streets or close their borders for them...

No more stopping of that:

dw.com/en/europes-top-court-declares-german-truck-tolls-excessive/a-55418224

Maybe China and/or Turkey will compensate you for being cut off from the rest of Europe....I'm totally sure they will support you with billions also and make sure your economy will flourish...they are known to be nice to their pawns...and Poland can annoy them and discuss with them and disagree with them to their hearts content...they will totally not mind at all!

And who knows...together with buddy Hungary they could build a strong bloc and tell Beijing and Istanbul what to do....they will be so powerful...and influential...woah!

Who needs the EU....
amiga500 4 | 1,520
30 Jul 2021 #293
i am not advocating poland becoming an enemy of the EU but a country that gets its elbows out and is not afraid to put a few euro noses out of joint. Just like Thatcher did when she shaped the whole bloc towards a neo-liberal direction.

Germany and Poland are not friends, they are business partners and competitors. Germany owns too much of Polands treasure and there will be some tears and buthurt as we equalise our relations over the next 20 years.
Ironside 53 | 12,357
30 Jul 2021 #295
And for your coal..

Well, Poland should keep its coal powered plants for a time being. That certain. If it won't make it a modern country we have Germany to lead by exmaple.

How about that?

ith a gazillion Euros out of Brussels pockets?

I say keep it and give it to Berlin, they will needed to close all their coal powered plants. No borrowing money in Poland name for so called recovery fund. Deal?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #296
I say keep it and give it to Berlin,

Well...not even Germany-hating PIS says that....and they might have hard real reasons for that...

No borrowing money in Poland name for so called recovery fund

Whats wrong with that? Germans should complain, not Poles....

ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/recovery-plan-europe_en

Well, Poland should keep its coal powered plants for a time being.

You should phase them out and invest in Green Tech...that is the future...where alot of money is to be made!
Ironside 53 | 12,357
30 Jul 2021 #297
Well...not even Germany-hating PIS says that

Why not? Just keep it and close all coal powered plants, go green, make big money and lead by exmaple..

You should phase them out and invest in Green Tech.

Nah .. we are backwoods and conservative we like that old tech we are attached you see ...

ah but that recovery funds not for Poland, so Poland name out of the list....

Germans should complain, not Poles...

Hey you can complain..
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
30 Jul 2021 #298
Why not?

Because Warsaw won't let us?

Hey you can complain..

No...our gov is dead set to pay our big part in this...Europe is more important, you know...
Ironside 53 | 12,357
30 Jul 2021 #299
Because Warsaw won't let us?

Really/ Well there is need for a new people in Warsaw.. Need for all those nasty control freaks to go away..

No...our gov is dead set to pay our big part in this...

Oh you big softy German idealists you are so good and generous and yet nobody understand you, you should be loved and admired for your selfless acts..

You see Poland is not worthy of your sacrifice just let it be...
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,397
30 Jul 2021 #300
Germany-hating PIS

Where did you get that "germany-hating" bit from, BB? PiS has agreed to the GreenTech revolution (this 2050 green deal) and they announced that coal mines will have to be closed down eventually (causing a lot of unrest in mining communities). Opposition to LGBT/gender revolution stems from them having to take into account their conservative catholic voter base more than anything else (Kaczynski is most likely a homosexual person himself), and the whole "war reparations" thing is only for internal use to rally the more nationalistic elements within their party.

When you analyse their economic and political decisions you won't notice any Antigermanismus or Deutschenfeindlichkeit in their actions. It is during the PiS rule when most panzer forces were moved from the western to eastern Poland and it is during their reign that Polish-German economic exchange has been steadily rising.

However, I have no idea how they will react now, after this NS2 affair... they WILL have to do something.


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