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Władysław Bartoszewski died


OP jon357 74 | 22,020
30 Apr 2015 #31
I'm not sure things are getting worse, and the less pseudo-patriotism the better. Worth mentioning that there were some pretty unsavoury figures in PL pre-war, including admirers of Franco, Dolfuss etc as well as endemic corruption. These factors partly shaped the generation Bartoszewski was part of and has a surprisingly long-lasting effect on the political landscape.

Fortunately people like him reacted to it by being totally different.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
30 Apr 2015 #32
Franco may not have been all that bad considering the alternative of a Stalinist Spain. They euphemistically called themselves "republicans" but brandished portraits of the world's greatest butcher

-- Uncle Joe. Imagine two bastions of Stalinism at opposite ends of Europe. Although the blood-thirsty reds of 1930s Spain may appeal to some who approve killing priests, raping nuns and burning down churches.
OP jon357 74 | 22,020
30 Apr 2015 #33
The crimes you mention pale into insignificance compared with the crimes of the other side. Fortunately over the things have become more moderate and in any case organised religion (itself one of the totalitarianisms of the Twentieth Century) is withering naturally.

The environment that the generation we are talking about grew up in was one of extremes. Better to be slightly closer to the Left than the Right in my opinion, but a horror of either extreme predicated much of the moderate world-view of that generation.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
30 Apr 2015 #34
So having the kind of Stalinist bloodbath in Spain that Uncle Joe served up in the USSR would be only slightly to the left? The pockhole-faced dwarf Dzhugashvili had more human lives on his conscience than Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Atilla the Hun and other of history's butchers.

The prospect of a murderous Stalinist bastion as a permanent fixture on Europe's westernmost flank required extreme measures to prevent and ensure that Stalinism would never rear its ugly head again. Let's not deify democracy. It is usually the best system but it has been known to make bad choices and fail. Hitler got to power legally. If there had been a political force strong enough to nip the Nazi movement in the bud by whatever means available, would you also condemn that as a breach of democratic rule?
OP jon357 74 | 22,020
30 Apr 2015 #35
Who said that? You're going off topic, however it's worth pointing out that you're making a lot of assumptions about the way things turned out. Though personally mistreating clergy was undeniably wrong, the rcc had behaved appallingly there and change was needed. A victory by the anti-Franco people (the leadership of which was most certainly NOT 'Stalinist') would have been an improvement on the bloodthirsty regime that they ended up with.

Don't forget either the sacrifice made by all those Poles who served in the International Brigade.

Anyway, better not to try to take the thread further off topic, not least because the thread is about remembering one of the greatest Poles of the Twentieth (and Twentyfirst) Century.


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