Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US

Clearly you do not know anything worth knowing about Polish history. Go away and read about the Trawniki camp and the Wachmanner. Also read about where the NCOs of the Trawniki units were from (hint: it wasn't Germany).

If you can't be bothered to do that, just answer this: given that the total list of Austrian and German SS men who served at the AR camps is 120 and that units of 90-130 Wachmanner deployed at each of the four camps at any one time, how can your claim about the men at the death camps being German be true?

And then tell me, given that you claim that all death camp staff were German, why half of the Nazis killed during the Sobibor uprising were not German, neither were 90% of the wounded and neither were any of the 28 staff who went missing.

You clearly know far too little to bother talking to about this topic.

The camp was also utilized for training guards recruited from Soviet POWs, known as "Hiwi", for service with Nazi occupation forces in occupied Poland and neighbouring countries. The Hiwi included ethnic Germans from eastern Europe, Belarusians, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians, Ukrainians, and others. No Poles there, we were talking about weather Poles took part.


In Poland, were talking about Poland not east of Poland where it was mostly the local population doing those crimes, but in Poland in was Germans or Soviet POWs mostly Ukrainians, NOT Poles.

No I was not. I said "The overwhelming majority of the personnel at the Nazi death camps were not German" As you know, because you quoted me here, where you claimed "The overwhelming majority WAS German, in Poland anyway." Don't start lying even more just because your lies are being exposed.


I've already posted details of some of the Poles who went through Trawniki, such as Bronislaw Hajda, Walter Obodzinsky etc. Of course you'll claim that those Poles aren't really Poles....

Contemporary media did not refer to them, oh mighty historian you. There was no such thing like Lambinowice in media those times. People who survived those camps were threatened with imprisonment if they dared to speak about them.


There's no such thing as a Jewish Pole, Harry. Jewishness is by birth from a Jewish mother. Check Jewish sources.


No more Sawoniuk then, Harry the Revisionist?

I bet you have plenty of links claiming that Obodzinski was a Pole. Obliged for posting. You may not know this little detail, but Germans never recruited Poles to the SS nor to Hiwi.

No? So they didn't have Polish passports/citizenship, then?

Holocaust denial is one thing, but citizenship denial is a whole new breed of stupidity!

"Jewish Pole" simply refers to a Jewish citizen of Poland. Exactly the same as "British Muslim" and so on.

Isn't that a misnomer though? Or are you saying that in this day and age religious identifiers take precedence over citizenship in establishing identity objectively?

I would have thought that the better identifiers would have been say a "Pole of Jewish faith" or a "Briton of Muslim faith".

That's just a matter of language, though. You could say "Polish Jew" instead of "Jewish Pole" - same thing, at the end of the day, to most people.

I was referring to Bereza Kartuska (given that I was replying to a statement about "detaining camps" which is what the Polish junta called BK while the post-war camps were "labour camps") , which no less a source than The Times repeatedly referred to in the 1930s as concentration camp. No doubt word of the Polish camps post-war was also reported by media but I can't be bothered to prove that you are lying about the post-war as well as the pre-war.


Of course to a bigot like you, there is no such thing as a Jewish Pole. It seems though that you need to go a scrub the wikipedia article on Morel: it says he was the son of a Jewish baker and by your definition that means he isn't Jewish and so is just a plain Pole.


Sawoniuk was most certainly Polish, being born in Poland to a Polish mother (although of course a Polish editor has tried to scrub that from wikipedia, was that you?). I didn't mention him because he didn't train at Trawniki. Of course he did serve in the SS and then the Polish army, despite telling the Polish army that he was ex-SS (yet another proven fact that has been scrubbed from wikipedia by a Polish liar, was that you too?)


UNHCR do you? "The author was born on 7 May 1919 in Turez, a Polish village that came under the control of the former USSR in 1939."

Canadian court? "The respondent Mr. Obodzinsky was born in Poland in 1919." And he went to Canada "on 24 November 1946 by virtue of a Government order under which Canada agreed to accept 4,000 former members of the Polish Armed Forces." (same UNHCR source)


A cracking lie to end on! Pity that the courts of Britain, Canada and the USA have all found that Poles most certainly were recruited into the SS and as Hiwis. Try harder with your lies next time please.

Everything can be a matter of language but the import to the meaning ascribed by the particular use of language is a different thing.

What I mean is that if we use the term British Muslim, aren't we sub-consciously, and perhaps erroneously, saying that a person's religious observance is on par with their nationality vis a vis how they are describing themselves in the notional sense?

My subjective view is that your nationality comes first, and your religion comes a weak second, when identifying yourself.

Good God! We agree completely!

Doesn't work like that in many places, though. Religion is massively important for a lot of people, even in Europe - you can even hear "German Catholic" and "German Protestant" being used a lot.


For many people, it is. Northern Ireland can be seen as an extreme example of this.

Exactly. British Muslim exactly as Polish Jew. Not the other way around.

There is Jewish American, though, because American 'nationality' includes any applying ethnicity. In Europe not so easy.

Whether or not it 'works like that' cf whether it's the right thing objectively are two totally different issues.

What do you think? Shouldn't the indicia of terms such as nationality, citizenship and so on be free of religious appendages, particularly where a religious tag seems to take precedence over what one actually is?

For me, it's utter nonsense to use religious tags. One thing that is rarely mentioned is that while Jews might have been exterminated in Poland, they were still citizens of Poland.

Sadly, religion is often used to exclude people from "full" identity of a country. See also - French Muslims.

No. Jewish Pole is an oxymoron. Jewish citizen of Poland is a Polish Jew. Pole is nationality, Jew is ethnicity and religion, and citizenship is just formal allegiance to a specific government. You can't be of two ethnicities at once, nor you can't become a Jew if not born from a Jewish mother, neither ethnically nor in terms of religion. A Jew can convert to Christianity, and be Jewish still, ethnically, but christianity doesn't define Polishness. A Jew can polonise, then he is a Pole with Jewish ancestry, not a Jewish Pole, nor a Polish Jew.

I made a mistake while quoting, hence the repetition.


You were referring to Polish camps. How many camps were there in Bereza, Harry?


Oh really. No doubt it was, but you can't be bothered. But you can be bothered to claim again that Sawoniuk was a Pole.


Harry logic, 2+2=22. Who was his mother, Harry, care to divulge? If you do not know, then be informed, that the Israeli immigration law only grants citizenship to Jews, which is people born from Jewish mother, which is in accordance with traditional Jewish law.


Sawoniuk was Belorussian, born in Russia, and this was proved in these forums already, which doesn't stop you from making an bigoted moron of yourself again.


Old tricks, Harry, blatant lies in hope nobody will check? None of these sources says he was a Pole.


None of those courts claim anything about their nationality, Harry. Lying and accusing others of lying doesn't change the facts, boy.

What do Jews being exterminated in Nazi German and Soviet Russian controlled Poland have to do with their citizenship?

Wonder what he calls the British Jews? A Jewish British person? :)

So you wish to claim that the camps run by Poles in Poland after the war were not Polish concentration camps because they were officially referred to as 'labour camps'? Well, what else can we expect from a liar like you? Remind me, what was it you said would happen if I called you a liar one more time?


Sawoniuk was born on 7 March 1921 in Domaczewo, Poland and born to a Polish mother and an unknown father. Under Polish law of the time (and now), that makes him Polish. It also explains his Polish birth certificate. The same one which he used to join the Polish army (which is only open to Poles). The same Polish army he told that he was formerly in the SS. How unfortunate that you can not remove that fact from history in the same way that you remove inconvenient facts from wikipedia. You say that a Pole who was born in Poland to a Pole and joined the Polish army as a Pole, facts all proved by source documents, (and most probably had a Jewish father) was actually a Belorussian who was born in Russia: this is because you are a liar and yet again are shown to be a liar.


The sources say that he was born in Poland and went to Canada as part of a program for Polish servicemen. But you still have to lie about what the sources say. That really is as pathetic as an old monkey wanking furiously at the zoo. Not that I am saying here that you are a pathetic old monkey or a ******.


According to British court Sawoniuk was Polish (as shown by the evidence introduced to and accepted by the court). According to Canadian court Obodzinsky was born in Poland and a Polish ex-service man (as is linked to above). According to the US 7th circuit court Hajda was a Goralian Pole whose sister said "My brother Bronislaw Hajda, was a Pole like myself".

caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1221955.html

Speaking of Gorale, how about the Goralisher Waffen SS Legion? No Poles in there according to you! And then we have the Polnische Wehrmacht, obviously no Poles in there either, at least to you anyway. And of course Schuma-Bataillon 202, which was officially defined by the Nazis as a Polish battalion (although I guess that to you those boys were OK as they mainly fought communist partisans).

And then there are the 151 Poles who fought with the SS and were recruited in Britain to join the post-war 'British Army on the Rhine'. The records that prove that are available for in UK War Department (now Min of Defence) files at the UK Public Records Office. Where do those men fit into your lies?

What about you try to actually answer the question for a change, and not try to change the subject? So: how many camps were in Bereza?


This topic is about concentration camps, not the German army, and definitely not about Gorale. You are taking this thread off topic. Again. And moderators let you. Again.

Apparently at least two: the "seclusion camp" which even as recently as 2007 the Polish government were insisting was there; and the "concentration camp" which The Times wrote about a number of times in the 1930s.


Fine: the death/concentration camps run by Nazis in occupied Poland during WWII should never be referred to as "Polish death/concentration camps" but must always be referred to as "Nazi death/camps" or "Nazi death/concentration camps in occupied Poland"; and the concentration camps run by Poland before and after WWII must always be referred to as "Polish concentration camps". Agreed? And further agreed: anybody who incorrectly refers to one as the other needs to have the error of their ways pointed out to them?

A victory! There was a petition done by the Kosciuszko Foundation for this and I am glad to see it worked...

I guess that's your lame attempt of admitting that it was just one camp but definition of it vary.


Not bloody likely. Poland did not run concentration camps before, during or after WW2. And that's my final answer. You are on yet another routine round of throwing spaghetti on the wall to see if it sticks.


Yes, we know. I signed this petition personally.

So you want truth about 'Polish' concentration camps when the truth suits Poland and lies about Polish concentration camps when the truth does not suit Poland; and you are more than happy to personally spread those lies. Nice to see yet again that you are a hypocrite and a liar.

Is that your strongest debating argument? You see only what you are paid to see, you sad loser.

I suggest that anyone paranoid enough to suggest that forum posters have "paymasters" is the "sad loser" here.

Find another explanation for this recurrent idiocy of Harry. I am at a loss.


I claim you have attention span like a dead golden fish. No contemporary media, Harry moron, referred to camps, as you claimed, because there was only one contemporarily referred to in the media, that in Bereza. The post-war camps were not referred to, it was illegal to do so in Poland under Soviet rule, and the West didn't give a damn.

Your claim was another wild harryism, exactly as your claim about Polish concentration camps after the war. They were Soviet camps, exactly as Auschwitz was a German camp. Poland was an occuped country, under Soviet rule, run by a Soviet clique of Soviet citizens, and everybody who heard about PRL knows perfectly well about that. Except you, that is. This needs another couple of braincells, sorry.

Which means, coming back to topic at last, that 'Polish concentration camps' as referred to by the Western media are about German camps in the occupied Poland, and the phrase is a slander exploiting Western ignorance about the European history.


Quote me, you so good at invoking sources.


His 'Polish mother' as according to 'some newspapers', Westerners ignorant of Polish realities just like you. He was using oteczestwo, as any Belorussian, and as no Pole would, and he was commonly known as a Belorussian. He joined a Belorussian Police under German control and prosecuted Poles.

Under Polish law he was a Polish citizen, just like other Belorussians, Ukrainians, Jews, Germans and whatever. So long in Poland, and still not unable to grasp this difference, you must be really stupid.

None of your sources claims that Sawoniuk or Obodzinski were Poles. Place of birth does not define a nationality, Harry, especially not in the pre-war Poland.


Looses argument, reverts to slander, Harry in full glory.


Right. Born in Poland. That's all they say. None of them says he was a Pole. No courts quoted by you have ever claimed that. No sources claim that.


Who was speaking of Gorale, Harry? I said Germans did not recruit Poles to SS, nor to Hiwis, Harry the confused. Gorale were not Poles to them.


ROTFL!! :)) The what??? I say Germans never recruited Poles to the SS, and you call me a liar because there was a formation of Poles in the German army in the war of 1914? Everybody bloody knows that, Harry the Revelator. Loads of Poles were the citizens of Germany then. You heard about WW1? Try to google it.

Seems we need a thread for the most stupid argument on the day.


To me those boys were Ukrainians. Schuma Batallion 202 was formed by joining two Ukrainian formations which took part in the German invasion of the USSR. Whatever some drunk Nazi called them is hardly relevant.


Germans did not recruit Poles to the SS, Harry, that's a historical fact. Polish citizen is not necessarily a Pole, Harry, that's a fact of life. Kebab is no good for brains, that's the conclusion.

Speaks volumes about the Admin that he tolerates you here.

Harry i could say the same thing about Bronislav Kaminski commander of the S.S. Sturmbrigade R.O.N.A. born to a Polish father, or von Manstein birth name Fritz Erich von Lewinski who's father was also Polish, or SS-Obergruppenführer Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski yet they all felt more German.

Hansard here shows that you are, yet again, a liar.


That statement was inserted into Wikipedia by the same editor (who just happens to have a Polish IP address) that removed the information about Sawoniuk telling the Polish army that he had been in the SS. Was it you? The fact is that all the sources about Sawoniuk's mother say that she was Polish.


More lies from you: the police he joined was not 'Belorussian' (despite Polish Wikipedia editors editing that info in, just check the sources which they removed) and he did not prosecute anybody. Why must you lie so much?


Quite right: so why was Sawoniuk Polish? Oh yes, because his mother was Polish and his father was unknown.


Apart from the Canadian court which says "Polish ex-serviceman" and the American court which says "Polish"....


And you share the viewpoint of the Nazis, how very surprising.


And we have a contender for lie of the day from you: the Polnische Wehrmacht, also called unofficially the White Eagle's Legion, was (re)formed in 1944 with the stated aim of turning it into "Waffen SS Polen". You'd better get scrubbing this wikipedia article!


Oh dear, yet another lie! Even Polish language wikipedia shows you're lying here. "202 Batalion Schutzmannschaft (Schutzmannschafts Batallion 202) - kolaboracyjna jednostka zmilitaryzowanej policji podległa dowództwu niemieckiemu składająca się z Polaków pochodzących z Generalnego Gubernatorstwa," "Z Polaków oraz Ukraińców i Białorusinów z polskim obywatelstwem formowano również skoszarowane jednostki niemieckiej policji pomocniczej. Na kresach wschodnich, które weszły w skład Komisariatu Rzeszy Ukraina, w jednostkach tych służyli przede wszystkim Ukraińcy. Sytuacja zmieniła się wiosną 1943 roku, gdy duża część ukraińskich policjantów zdezerterowała, by zasilić oddziały Ukraińskiej Powstańczej Armii. Wtedy składy wybrakowanych posterunków i kompanii został uzupełniony w dużej części przez Polaków." Get scrubbing on this article too!

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalion_Policyjny_nr_202

Come back anytime you want your lies exposed yet again!


Which explains these men no doubt!
SS-Scharfuhrer Józef Kompała
SS-Oberfuhrer Maciej Cebula
SS-Rottenfuhrer Jan Piotrowicz
SS-Sturmmann Adam Politański
SS-Untersturmfuhrer Józef Paweł Radomski-Bronowicki

Looks like you'd better get scrubbing Polish language wikipedia in the same way that Polish editors scrub inconvenient facts out of English language wikipedia. Here's the article which you need to 'edit'!

Still, they were Polish citizens.

No they weren't. von dem Bach-Zelewski (born Otto Jan Józefat von Zelewski) got the Polish sounding part of his name from a Kaszubian (and so by nott's Nazi-inspired views) wasn't even ethnically Polish, let alone being a Polish citizen. Von Manstein was the child of a Prussian aristocrat (who had roots in a family from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) and did not qualify for a Polish passport. Kaminski may have qualified for a Polish passport (born in Russian to a Polish father and a German mother) but he certainly never had one.

However, all the men which I named in my posts were Poles. And Polish citizens too.


Oh dear! It seems that the US National Archives and Records Administration have a copy of the exact order in which Himmler personally authorised the recruiting of Poles into the Waffen. OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. No. II/38927/44geh of 4 December 1944, which can be found at National Archives and Records Administration under NARA T-175/22/2527441. It seems that historical fact is rather different to you tired old lies! Details here.[/url]

www1.ku-eichstaett.de/ZIMOS/forum/docs/kochan.htm#fnB48