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Referendum to cost Polish taxpayers nearly 130 mln zl amid uncertain turnout


Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Sep 2015 #1
The 6th September referendum concocted by ex-president Komorowski the Platformer-controlled senate will cost Polish taxpayers some 130 million złotys. The exercise will be in vain if 50% do not turn out nad vote, but the cost will have to be borne anyway. It's amazing how nonchalantly politcians are generous with other people's money! Komorowski's knee-jerk panic at the 21% support Kukiz got prompted him to call a referendum. Although initially the JOW (first-past the-post) election system seemed promising to many, upon reconsideration and observing many foriegn examples (e.g. UKIP) it has raised serious questions.

As noted in the thread (below), adding referendum questions to a parliamentary election ballot (the way Priesdent Duda has suggested) costs next to nothing, but printing seżarate referendum ballot papers runs into the millions.

wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,18680562,krajowe-biuro-wyborcze-zdradza-ile-kosztuje-referendum.html
InPolska 9 | 1,816
2 Sep 2015 #2
@Pol: are you sure of the amount? Seems very (too) high to me. Some (pro PO) people around me told me yesterday that they don't expect more than 10-15% participation.....
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Sep 2015 #3
10-15%

That figure came from the National Election Bureau chief:
polska.newsweek.pl/ile-bedzie-kosztowac-referendum-6-wrzesnia-2015,film,369752.htm

That turnbout estimate seems quite likely. It seems Komorowski went off half-cocked. Now nobody -- neither PiS nor PO nor even Kukiz himself is really urging any turnout or publicising the referendum.
InPolska 9 | 1,816
2 Sep 2015 #4
@Pol: So much money thrown away! Most people don't even know what it is about (cf. incl. others today's GW) and most of them don't care any way. I would not be surprised if those organizing said referendum got blamed as of Sunday pm when we know results for so much money wasted. A disgrace!
Harry
2 Sep 2015 #5
So much money thrown away!

Much like the referendum in Warsaw which wasted millions after a selection of PISites who don't even pay their taxes in Warsaw decided to waste a lot of other people's money. I very much enjoyed going to the polling station for that referendum, checking that my name was on the list and then declining the offer of a ballot paper.
InPolska 9 | 1,816
2 Sep 2015 #6
@Harry: 2 wrongs don't make 1 right ;). Wasting (by anyone) so much money does not make any sense. Everybody knows that participation won't reach 50%. I cannot get over it that Komorowski so quickly bought whatever Kukiz said. Well, Kukiz got 21% but not too hard to realize from very beginning that he is nothing more than a clown.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
2 Sep 2015 #7
I cannot get over it that Komorowski so quickly bought whatever Kukiz said.

To be fair, it nearly worked. Komorowski was suffering quite badly in the opinion polls just after the 1st round - yet the final result was close.
Harry
2 Sep 2015 #8
Well, Kukiz got 21% but not too hard to realize from very beginning that he is nothing more than a clown.

This referendum is certainly helping more people to realise that he is an utter clown.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Sep 2015 #9
he is an utter clown

...And that Komorowski was an utter fool to be duped into calling a referendum! If it doesn't attract a 50% turnout, the ex-president should be forced to pay for it out of his own pocket. His five kids can chip in and help him raise the cash.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
2 Sep 2015 #10
His five kids can chip in and help him raise the cash.

Certainly more of a Catholic than Duda, who despite his "Catholicism" only had one child.

I'm really not sure why his kids are in any way relevant to this topic, though.

Anyway, I've heard it mentioned that PO will propose legislation based on the results of the referendum - so even if the 50% margin isn't reached, they will still advance legislation based on popular will.
InPolska 9 | 1,816
2 Sep 2015 #11
if no money were involved, it could sound like a joke.

Barely 50% of people vote in presidential and parliamentary elections so how do they expect to have a 50% turnout on Sept. 6? It is another example of (all) politicians being disconnected from reality.

I don't know anyone who will bother to vote on Sunday. It is mushroom season.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Sep 2015 #12
if no money were

Anyone know what could be done for the Polish people with 130 million zł? Healthcare, road building, refugee centres, etc.
InPolska 9 | 1,816
2 Sep 2015 #13
@Pol: of course, a lot could have been done with these 130 million ZL.

@Delph: you know, sometimes people don't have many kids (or don't have any) even if very religious simply because of medical reasons.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
3 Sep 2015 #14
referendum

Without expressing a view for or against the actual quesitons of Duda's planned referendum, knowing the Poles' low turnout, combining general elections with any current referendum IMHO would be a good and inexpensive way of proceeding. The best of both worlds: direct voter input on a given issue at no extra cost. Separate referenda should be reserved for only the most vital state questoins such as: "Should the Polish Armed Forces march to Ukraine's aid in the face of Russian aggression?" or "Should Poland withdraw from the EU?"
InPolska 9 | 1,816
3 Sep 2015 #15
Yes, it would have made better sense. It seems to me that Komorowski after the 1st round was sort of running around like a chicken whose head had been cut off and thus this nonsense referendum. He seemed so scared of Kukiz that he felt he had to position himself according to Kukiz, who lead the dance.

I am sure that as of Monday a lot of people will complain about the cost as obviously the turnout is going to be very very low.
smurf 39 | 1,971
3 Sep 2015 #16
a lot of people will complain about the cost

130m zl isn't really that much money though in fairness, it's only what...€30m, Warsaw stock exchange makes that in a minute.
I honestly think they should've spent more.
I asked a few friends about it and some didn't even know there was one on this wknd
InPolska 9 | 1,816
3 Sep 2015 #17
@Smurf: Yes, in terms of a nation, it is not a fortune but was it really necessary to spend 130 million (ZL) on something not crucial and about which nobody cares? Komorowski's decision was taken in a moment of panic because of the Kukiz at the time phenomenon.

As a (Polish) taxpayer, I'd rather have my tax ZL go to schools, hospitals, transportation, people in need....

I cannot wait to find out about the results on Sunday night ;)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
3 Sep 2015 #18
combining general elections with any current referendum IMHO would be a good and inexpensive way of proceeding

I would prefer not to have referenda at all on these issues. Even with Duda's proposal - why do we need a referendum on 6 year olds going to school? Likewise with JOW or state funding of political parties - we don't need a referendum to determine such things. Local elections went to JOW without any fuss, after all.
smurf 39 | 1,971
3 Sep 2015 #19
but was it really necessary to spend 130 million (ZL) on something not crucial and about which nobody cares?

Well, y'know, it's like everything here, the money's been misused.
Surely 10-15% of it could've been used to inform the electorate of the issues and other relevant info.

I'd rather have my tax ZL go to schools, hospitals, transportation, people in need

wouldn't we all, and less stupid military toys too
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
4 Sep 2015 #20
referendum

Poland's democratic, impartial and PO-dominated Senate, which wholeheartedly backed Komorowksi's 130 million złoty referendum, has vetoed the cost-free referendum cum election proposed by President Duda.

That is 130 million wyrzucone w błoto, because there's no way in the world 50% will vote on Sunday. But Platformer oldboy politics being what it is, the party's notions and proposals must be supported regardless of their advisability, relevance and cost.
Jardinero 1 | 405
4 Sep 2015 #21
Both referenda should have never been allowed - that 2 for 1 analogy is lame...
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
5 Sep 2015 #22
2 for 1 analogy is lame

I beg to differ. Every saving of taxpayer money should be supported. It should become standard practice to incldue any referundum questions on the ballot if such exist at election time. Also, the Sejm should be cut back to 200 members and the Senate to 50. And government ministers should be assigned Opel Vectras rather than BMWs or Audis... After all, they constantly claim they are only here "to serve the people", so excessive luxury is a needless waste.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
5 Sep 2015 #23
Poland's democratic, impartial and PO-dominated Senate, which wholeheartedly backed Komorowksi's 130 million złoty referendum, has vetoed the cost-free referendum cum election proposed by President Duda.

That's democracy. We elected the Senate to prevent populism as displayed by Duda.

That is 130 million wyrzucone w błoto, because there's no way in the world 50% will vote on Sunday. But Platformer oldboy politics being what it is, the party's notions and proposals must be supported regardless of their advisability, relevance and cost.

Legislation can be advanced regardless of turnout. The 50% mark is only when it becomes binding.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
5 Sep 2015 #24
prevent populism as displayed by

But it didn't seem to work in regard to the populism displayed by Komoruski.
The party above all!
jon357 74 | 21,749
5 Sep 2015 #25
That's democracy. We elected the Senate to prevent populism as displayed by Duda.

Precisely. It exists to provide a brake against paranoid politics and ensure a hard-won stability.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
5 Sep 2015 #26
provide a brake

But who says a 50-seat Senate couldn't just as effectivley brake the legislative folly of a 200-strong Sejm. And think of the savings for worthier causes than redundant lawmakers.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
5 Sep 2015 #27
I'd argue that there's no need for the Senate at all, or simply decrease it dramatically by allowing two senators to be elected by each province. If people want it to stay, then it should be composed of 32 candidates voted for at the same time as the provincial elections - 2 from each province should do the job. It absolutely should not be elected at the same time as the Sejm, as it just means that the Senate majority is held by the biggest party in the Sejm.
mafketis 36 | 10,679
5 Sep 2015 #28
The party above all!

Glad to hear you admit it! You're exactly the type of person who was a party member before 1989.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
5 Sep 2015 #29
32 candidates

The actual size is nto that important as long as its smaller than 100, but the Senate is needed as part of the system of checks and balances. Poles hate to be herded to the polls, so a separate senate election is out of the question, In fact, it'd be advisable to hold presidential and parliamentary elections and any referendum in a single go, either shortening the presidential term to 4 years or extending the palriamnetary one to 5.


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