Polish police chief removes crosses

OK, this is how I see it too.

Just because a small percentage of people are vocal about an issue, it does not mean their feelings aren't representative of the majority. Go into people's homes and you see a lot of crosses on a lot of walls. There are more people who are willing to fight to keep the things up than there are people who will fight to take the things down. That's just how it is here.


I disagree.


Oh yes, because abusive regimes with no religious attachments haven't churned out any destruction on society. *sarcasm off*

Poles are mostly Catholic whether or not you admit this changes nothing. They're not hurting anyone with putting crosses on walls so why are you so bothered by it?

[delphiandomine:[/quote] should (in any sensible country) have resulted in their immediate suspension[/quote]

Again an outsider of foreign blood representing alien thinking and values is lecturing Poles on what to do to be regarded (by him) as sensible.

Completely agreed. It baffles the mind.

That's your view; the view of the RCC is very different.


They aren't in Poland.


Such countries would include the UK, which you yourself have recently referred to as a "godless spiritual vacuum" and thus shows that troops going on pilgrimages in uniform is perfectly normal in a secular country.


Such countries would include the UK, which you yourself have recently referred to as a "godless spiritual vacuum" and thus shows that such is perfectly normal in a secular country.


Such countries would include the UK, which you yourself have recently referred to as a "godless spiritual vacuum" and thus shows that such is perfectly normal in a secular country.


Oh dear, you're lying again, aren't you.


The alien here is you, as is reflected by your complete lack of voting rights. As for Polish blood, Polish nationality is based on jus sanguinis: the right of blood. The Polish state says that your blood is not Polish, as reflected by the fact that you don't qualify for a Polish passport by descent (not that you'll take the one you qualify for by naturalisation).

Well, I absolutely agree with the police chef- all religions or none at all on the wall. Notice that I as atheist won't have any sign but I wouldn't have any problems if all religions recognised in Poland had signs in public places..

None at all please.

Well, yes, that would be my choice as well but I do understand ppl want to display the signs of their beliefs so I really wouldn't mind if all religious signs were on Sejm's wall

I agree entirely. Although there are a couple of symbols used by atheists. The one that was ripped off the wall of Szczecin council by Polish Catholics was the atom sign.


Sadly that's going to be the only workable solution. Can you imagine the mohair beret brigade's reaction to Satanist symbols going up next to their cross?

Another of obsessive Harry's lies. Anyone wherever he live on God's good earth if he has two Polish parents and four Polish grandparents IS ALREADY A POLISH CITIZEN. All he is requried to do is apply for confirmation.

The downside of this is that people who have travlled that road have also had to wait for several years an go through a lot of rigamarole. (The demand is great and the consular offices overloaded with a backlog of applications to be processed.)

Since I hate buearocracy in all its manifesations (procedures, regulations, paperwork, rules, subpoints, bylaws, affidavits, applicaition forms, etc.) as much as I do Gatesian gadgetarianism, this was never an option for me. Polish patriotism is in the heart, mind and soul, not on some scrap of paper.

Tut tut tut: the Polish citizenship acts of 1920, 1951 and 1962 all set forth circumstances in which Polish citizenship is lost; for example, taking or having citizenship of another country before 1951.


Quite right: why would you want to apply for a passport on complex grounds under which you do not qualify when you can go through the quick and easy process of naturalising as a Polish citizen?


Funny how you see documents which are hugely important to other people, such as the Polish constitution and Polish passports, as 'scraps of paper'.
But then I suppose that you do consider two bits of wood nailed together to be important while most Poles simply don't care and can't be bothered to go to church.

ATTENTION MODS (I realise Delph is the forum's No. 1 snitch, but two can play the same game innit?)
Is that slanderous remark of Harry's insulting the Polish people's kind and God-fearing mothers and grandmothers allowed on the forum?
It is no less offensive than Mr Maybach, Shifty Eyed Don, Duckboy or Gronkowiec!

Could you perhaps not lie about who my remark refers to? The term 'mohair beret brigade' does not apply to "kind and God-fearing mothers and grandmothers"; it is used to describe many of the more extreme of RM's listeners (see for example theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/18/poland.kateconnolly and vvv2.polskieradio.pl/eo/print.aspx?iid=71501. Last time I checked, most Polish mothers and grandmothers did not listen to Radio Maryja.

Anyway, as we're talking about RM, how do you think RM would react to Satanist symbols going up next to crosses in public places?

The answer is obvious. Why do you ask? Are you planning to begin displaying satanist emblems
in the host country in which you are a guest? Delph only lectures Poles on what they should be like -- this would be kicking things up a notch: from talking to acting.

If so inclined, why not take a crack at the Sejm cruicifix. 'Undesirable alien' status and Instant deportation guaranteed!

I have no intention of displaying any religious symbols anywhere. I'm asking because it may sadly be the case that some people very simply will not tolerate certain religious symbols being displayed. If that does turn out to be the case, unfortunately the rule will have to be that no religious symbols can be displayed. Or does anybody see any alternative solutions?

BTW, you may wish to note that I'm a European citizen and in the European Union; you are the guest here, not me.


Unlike certain Polish politicians, I am not so disrespectful as to tear other people's religious symbols from walls. And anyway, 'undesirable alien' status doesn't exist in Poland for EU citizens (the only reason we can be refused entry is if the Polish government can demonstrate that we are a clear and present threat to public order or national security.

An assault on Catholic Poland, discreditng the Chruch and its followers, spreading the delusion that Poland is predominantly atheist, Muslim, Lutheran or anything else other than what it really is (93% Catholic) could be construed to mean offending religious sensibilities, and that is against the law. A good lawyer could make it stick.

Let me ask you a question, are these people (most of the 92.2% as you say) officially banned from the RCC? not by definition or rule but is there any official statement of the RCC that clearly states that they're no longer Catholics?

They aren't banned, they just aren't doing the minimum which the RCC requires from practising Catholics.


Libel me again and you may well find yourself needing one of those; and do remember that Poland still has something called criminal libel.

well, in that case, as long as they call themselves Catholics, they are Catholics. Really not much talk about, Harry.

There can be consequences, particularly in smaller parishes. Someone that fails to comply with this can find themselves refused Catholic sacraments - for instance, marriage and burial. Being baptised (or claiming to be Catholic) won't be enough. Even not letting the priest in can have consequences, so I'm told.

you might be right about that DD but as long as they're not officially banned from the RCC, and freely declare themselves as Roman Catholic, they are Catholics.

Unless they want to get married in an RCC church. Or have their funeral there. Or send their kids to an RCC church. Or do anything else practising Catholics can do.

For the non-religious police officers in Poland, they probably don't care whether the crosses are up or not. If you don't believe, the cross has no significance anyhow. just like i don't care that the money in my pocket says, "In God We Trust." Start telling me that 10% of the money in my pocket needs to go to a man in a dress with a big cane and a funny hat who in turn will not pay taxes.....ever....I'd take issue.

The church problems exist when people push religious agendas onto non-believers AND believers alike. We all know there are many different levels of religiousness, some people still believe a man lived inside a whale and the talking snake and all that, others were simply baptized Catholic because they were 6 weeks old and didn't have a choice and today they believe maybe in "some" god, but whether it's a peasant jew with a beard and sandals or Zeus or Poseidon or whatever, they're not sure or don't care to recognize any personification of any kind with their god. Such believers are becoming more and more common and find the uber religious annoying and overbearing and sometimes a bit loony.

If you're a devout catholic, whether the crosses are there or not shouldn't make any difference. Your faith should be quite enough. Traditions are for the most part just old habits. They stemmed from somewhere, and before those traditions existed, there were different ones. 1,000 years ago, young Polish boys probably didn't splash water on young girls the day after easter. 1,000 years from today, Poles probably won't do that either. And the world will continue to turn, either way.

as I said, you guys might be right about that but it's not our decision, let the church deal with it. We debated whether they are Catholics or not and I hope, we can now conclude that they are all Catholics as long as they're not banned from the church and freely declare themselves as such.

I have done all sacraments including marriage in a Catholic church. I do not believe in Jesus, or any god for that matter. I do not claim there is no god because that's equal to insisting there in fact IS a god.

Am I Catholic?

Hard to say that they're Catholics if they can't even receive the most important sacraments in the Church.

You're only Catholic if you say you are (it's the same with other religions too).


Again, as long as they're not officially banned from the church, it's their right to be what they want to be.

The problem is that the Church doesn't see it that way.

The RCC rarely excommunicates anyone, but the rules are clear - someone that doesn't do the minimum expected of Catholics can be denied sacraments, which is more or less a way of saying that the Church doesn't count you as a believer. A blind eye may or may not be turned - but a priest would be well within his rights to refuse a Catholic marriage to a couple that didn't meet the minimum obligations.

OK, so that's a no.


I'm not banned (at least not that I know of) from any church. Am I then free to claim that I am Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or anything else?

DD listen, the 92.2% of Poles who freely declared themselves as Catholics will stay Catholics as long as they continue to say they are and as long as they won't be officially banned from the RCC. C'mon guys, you're smart people and I assume you all stand for democracy and if the answer is YES, then let them be what they choose to be. No one ever forced them to be Catholic and yet they are by their own choice. Let's respect their right to be whoever they choose to be.