Polish police chief removes crosses

The point is they regard themselves as Catholic in an anonymous survey. That's how they feel even though the degree of practice may vary. It is only in the interest of Church-bashers to try to find circuitous ways of lowering that figure and using every means possible to discredit the Chrrch and its followers..

BTW for those who may have not made it to Holy Mass yesterday, the homilist at one Warsaw parish summed them up nicely when he said: Those constantly attacking the Church are those seeking to justify their own faithlessness and trying to give their immoral lifestyles some semblance of respectability. He added: If priests acount for only one paedophile in 1,000, then why aren't the media and other critics up in arms about the remaining 999? Good point.

you see, the difference between us is that you see it all in definitions and numbers while I see the right of everyone to believe what he wants and if one calls himself a Catholic, so be it. Besides, if RCC had a problem with its believers it would act accordingly, don't you think?

No, I can't quote data from the RCC (neither can you, I assume or you would have already posted it) but any link I've found online about Polish Catholics, confirms pretty much the same percentage of Catholics in Poland.


well, this could be a reason (link below) why many people (even some atheists, I'm sure) would have a problem with Satanism

rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism12.html

You don't go p*ssing off the majority by doing what you suggested and still keep your teeth. You don't have to respect traditions here but there's no reason to outwardly disrespect their traditions, is there?

Yes, you know your sh*t and do an admirable job of getting your facts together (for the most part) but as one poster pointed out, your thinking is so far to the left that it obscures what is otherwise a fairly good head with decent perspective.

The majority of people here whether you, I or anyone else likes it, identify with being Catholic. Why is this so hard for you to mentally digest? It's like every other week you go and try to prove otherwise.

Don't worry, people are becoming less and less devout every day and pretty soon they'll simply fall prey to something else that's even worse of an influence than the RCC and then you can dance a jig at how sh*tastic this place will have become. Feel better?

They can declare themselves as Moonies, that won't change the fact that they aren't real Moonies, just as they aren't real Catholics either. Real Catholics follow the requirements of the church. To use your charming phrase, Poland is a cafeteria Catholic country, not a Catholic country such as Malta.


That is a point which has been addressed many times here. The point is that even if his supposed stats about priests are correct and that one in a thousand paedophiles are priests: there are 409,166 priests in the world and the total population of the world is 6,974,000,000, which means that one in every seventeen thousand people is a priest. Why is it that priests are seventeen times more likely to be be paedophiles than the average person? And that's before we get into the vast cover-up that the RCC has engaged in.


Actually I can. Want me to?


Yawn. One could equally easily point to paedophile priests and say that they are why crosses shouldn't be on display; that would be equally smart.


People who won't tolerate other people's beliefs shouldn't get upset when other people won't tolerate their beliefs. That's pretty much kindergarten level of social skills.

The problem is that they aren't. Less than 4 in 10 go to mass regularly, less than 2 in 10 are considered devout. Being baptised Catholic isn't enough to be Catholic, as the RCC themselves make clear.

As for being "so far left", you really should stop using that one. In Poland, even Communists were known to attend Mass - so therefore, it means nothing.


There are plenty of examples of the RCC supporting hatred and violence. Those right wing dictatorships in the 20th Century tended to enjoy RCC support, as did Croatia in WW2 - a country that surprised even the Nazis in how brutal they were.


The problem is that 92.2% don't agree with crosses in public places. As I'm sick of saying, there are plenty of practising Catholics that don't care about crosses in public life. Trying to equate being Catholic with supporting crosses in public doesn't work - especially when it comes to people under the age of 40. I know quite a few Catholics who regard religion as a private matter - and who regard the cross in the Sejm as nothing but a political matter.

Do you know why the cross is in the Sejm in the first place?

Social skills?
Morality or reasoning? Perhaps. But social skills? No.
That being the case even kindergarten level math should tell you 9-1 odds and all other factors being equal or against you, ought to be respected to a large degree.

Crosses on the wall aren't hurting you or me. I'm not the religious type and loathe much of the hypocrisy of the PCC but that's what people here seem to prefer (brainwashed or not). I'm not going to get in their way and I make sure they don't get in mine. It's a bit of symbolism that reflects what Polish society is all about, for better or worse. So what's the big deal?

But it isn't a 9-1 view at all. The RCC's own figures show less than 4 in 10 attending mass regularly, so the numbers are far closer than that.


The big deal is that a police commander used his authority to take them down. People cried, whined and howled.

you can but it won't change my opinion about people and their right to decide whether they're Catholics (or anyone else for that matter) or not.

Tell me, if you consider yourself an atheist (I don't know, just an example) and we'll all say, you're not, will our opinion make any difference in how you see yourself?


really, Harry? Is that what Catholics do?

"A young teenage girl, impregnated during a satanic ritual, is forcibly delivered of her nearly term baby, forced to ritually kill the child and then to cannibalize its heart as cult members watch. Another girl, a small child, is sealed inside the cavity of a disemboweled animal and "rebirthed" by her cultic captors during a ceremony"


so basically what you're saying is that most of the 92.2% are lying and or are too dumb to determine who they are.


Let's be honest DD, am I lying? ;-)


many bad things happened in the past (still are) and just about anyone was (is) involved in it. If you already mentioned Catholics, be fair and don't forget to mention the two biggest criminals of all times who happened to be commies and atheists, Mao and Stalin.


now, that is a complete assumption, more like a wishful thinking and you know it.

They did this

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html

Spains stolen babies

very sad indeed but if we're going to follow that path, I'm gonna end up posting crimes against humanity under communist regimes (atheists ofc) and trust me, the numbers will be way higher than any other crimes committed by anyone, anywhere else.

What is the source of that allegation?
If there is any truth to it at all, it might be that the screening of seminary candidates for homosexual tendencies has been quite poor. Hopefully Pope Francis will tighten up the requirements.

You've misunderstood the reference to this figure a bit. Look at the context as to what I was replying to.


So let's stop crying about it shall we;)?
It's obvious the majority of people here want the things on their walls for whatever reason. Live and let live man.

The priest you refer to above and the Vatican: one in a thousand paedophiles are priests: there are 409,166 priests in the world and the total population of the world is 6,974,000,000, which means that one in every seventeen thousand people is a priest. Why is it that priests are seventeen times more likely to be be paedophiles than the average person?


And again we go from removing crosses to gay sex. Why is it that you so often want to link paedophiles to homosexuals and to link homosexuals to every other topic?

yep, if we all followed that rule, the world would be a much better place to live in.

There is guilt everywhere you look. I agree.

that's exactly what I'm saying too and that's why, there's no need to pick on people for being Catholics, Jews or anyone else for that matter.

It is what it is and let's try to accept it at least. Of course, we are all entitled to our opinions, have our likes and dislikes. It's human after all. Love and hate is a as old as humanity and so it's very natural to have different opinions about different things but it doesn't mean that we have to make our lives miserable. Let's enjoy what we have because it certainly won't last forever.

And those opinions should be kept to oneself. Thrusting individual beliefs on others shouldn't be tolerated.

The problem is that it isn't a majority - it's normally a very vocal minority that shouts and screams for these things. Like I keep saying - the real problem is that the moment anyone takes them down, a small minority will scream, shout and go insane. You can see from this incident that they immediately undermined their commander's authority - which should (in any sensible country) have resulted in their immediate suspension.

For what it's worth, police and security forces should be completely impartial. I'm not sure how anyone can agree that religion has a place to play in policing, particularly given the history of abusive Catholic regimes.

OK, well who does it in this particular case? I didn't see anyone here, trying to convince others to his religion. I posted a link (many to choose from) confirming that over 90% of Poles are Catholics and some posters are opposing that number, that's all. Nothing too exciting though.

Sounds like the LGBT gang. Presumably by PC standards some small but heavily bankrolled and extremely pushy and aggressive minorites are OK as long as they're not Christian ones.

Can you tell us - in America - if someone is baptised into (for instance) the Baptist church, will they identify as Baptists if they don't practice the religion at all and don't really believe in it?

They may.People are different. Some Baptists are lax in their practices but have not severed their emotional ties with their religion. Others have. Aren't the PC types always going on about the benefits of diversity and all that rot?

Sure, I just wondered, given that in Europe, we tend to identify by what we were baptised into if we didn't consciously leave the Church in question.

This is what I'm trying to explain to 4eigner - that if you ask someone in Poland - "what's your religion?" - most (and I believe the 92% figure) will reply Catholic, even if they don't go to Church. You need to look at Church/Communion attendance figures to get the real numbers.

I know what you're saying DD but it's not the kind of answer I was getting from Poles I was talking to. None of them said, I was born Catholic but now I'm an atheist. OK, I've heard it's somewhat different in Warsaw but it's not where I lived in Poland so I can only say what I've heard in Eastern Poland, in the Masurian Lakes area and in the Tri-City but putting it all together with what I hear here on PF, the number found in many links online, is about correct. I know, you and Harry hate the RCC but none of this will change the fact that most Poles are Catholics and whether you like it or not, you're gonna have to learn to live with it. I don't know about you guys but to me, this is not some kinda d/ck measuring contest and if it the number I found online, wouldn't be right, I wouldn't be wasting my time on discussing it.

It's all a question of who does the defining. Are people permittted to freely declare their religious sympathies and say what they regard themselves as, or are we to accept some Delph & Harry definition? Every PF-er has a choice: the Polish nation or D&H?

No, that's not a particularly common view in Poland. I know many people who were baptised Catholic, don't go to Church and yet may or may not believe in God - even for me, to declare yourself atheist is a rather significant step as it involves actively denying the existence of something without being in possession of all the facts. I don't know many declared atheists - but I know a lot of people who don't go to Church.

Yet - these same people - when asked the question about religion, will say Catholic. It doesn't mean they're practising - it only means that they were baptised in the Catholic Church and haven't formally left. Even leaving the Church can involve significant hassle, hence why many people simply choose not to participate in Church life.


The Polish nation has made it clear - Poland is a secular country. Still struggling with our Constitution?

I like that approach and this is why millions of people believe in God, because there's absolutely no proof of his non-existence. Of course, you could say the same about his existence but this is the choice we're all making. I believe in God and some people don't and I personally don't have any problem with that as long as they accept my right to believe.


true and yet if one tells me, he's a Catholic, he is one IMO. I'm not gonna even try to prove him wrong. Why would I?

Know of any other 'secular' country where crosses are found in every public school, hospital, town hall and other public buildings? Where uniformed army troops go on pilgrimages, freshly knighted police cadets are blessed by priests and priests aqnde bishops areinvited to bless newly opened roads, bridges and shopping centres? WHere 93% of the people produly delcare theri Cahtolic faith.

The bottom line is that dingbat Church-bashers can rant and rave all they want about 'separation of church and state' or 'secular state', neither of which are contained in the constituion. Above all, such notions are not found in hte hearts and minds of the sons and daughters of Mother Poland.

For me, everyone has a right to believe in what they wish, or not to believe. But beliefs shouldn't infringe upon others - if an atheist discriminates against a Catholic because of their religion, then they should be punished - and the same applies in reverse.

The issue with the crosses is that - in my opinion - public life should be completely impartial. I actually think the Americans have it right - you have the mentions of God on the money and in the Pledge of Allegiance, but you don't allow one religion to mix with public life. It seems to work.

The problem in Poland is that any attempt to remove a cross in a public place gets met with a small, vocal, angry minority that see the removal of the cross as somehow interfering with their right to believe. We saw it in Warsaw three years ago, we see it today - every incident becomes a major battle when in reality, it's a non-issue - Catholicism doesn't require crosses in public places.


You don't have to prove them wrong - all you need to do is ask them if they're a practising one ;) The RCC has rather strict rules on this to the best of my knowledge.


Crosses are most certainly not found in all of those places - I don't recall ever seeing a cross in my local Urzad Miasta, nor do I recall seeing one in any prominent location in the local hospital. Perhaps it's like that in small villages, but not where I live. As for public schools - again - we have the issue that any director (who only has the job for 5 years) would face immediate opposition from a small vocal minority of parents should they attempt to take them down. Directors know that if they rock the boat, they won't get re-elected - which means a huge drop in salary. You simply cannot use peer pressure as an example of voluntary faith.

Anyway Polonius, the facts don't lie - less than 2 in 10 Poles can be considered Catholic by the rules of the RCC. 93% means nothing - most people in Europe were baptised. Doesn't mean that they're religious at all, as witnessed by the Church attendance figures here.


Polonius, do you actually go outside, or do you live in 1900's Poland?

This sounds like a typical Church-basher's and Christophobe's loophole or technicality to discredit Catholics. All official statistical data is based on self-declaration not ony practice frequency, but the practice option seems a good way to undemrine and sow confusion. If people freely declare their Catholic faith, then they are Catholics.

How many PO members believe in all the political hogwash and actually like Tusk without thinking of it as a good career move?