Poles v Tusk's school 'reform'

"The problem with the Polish education system (speaking as somebody who spent years teaching in it) is that the main 'skill' taught is how to memorise things"

"yes, Polish kids are great in memorising the knowledge."

Yes because we all know that Mathematics/Science/Reading is all about memorising things ;)))

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment#2012

"If you bothered to look at the ranking..."

Your "rankings" have nothing to do with the topic.

To sum it up.

Expat 1. Uh, our system is so cool, you damn villagers don't even teach kids to read until 7 !
- when proven that British kids are far behind so perhaps their system is not so super duper cool, Expat 1 hide in the closet...
So here comes Expat 2. "But our universities... !!!!" Well, feck off clown.
The comes 3rd. "Uh Uh innovation !!!!1"

Jesus Christ, you guys are feckin circus :)))))))))) The bottom line is -> sending kids to "school" at 4 can't be so cool as they apparently are far behind in skills than those that start it much later. And frankly, looking around, the results of British education system are feckin pathetic :))))))))

Perhaps you should think about setting up some Expat cabaret :))) ? Might be better career opportunity than walking around Polish schools begging for a couple of hours here and there :)

I agree.
Maybe that is because teachers are so busy being social workers.
Or possibly today's generation of British parents have such terrible memories of their violent school days that they have 'bad attitude' which they pass on the kids.

Just a theory.

Tusk don`t care for Poland and Poles

Given that you didn't even know that they don't read/write in Zerówka, one rather thinks that it's you that should spend some time there.

Is that the type of debating skills which students learn in Polish schools? If so, the need for reform is even more urgent than I thought.


They have everything to do with the topic. The problem with the Polish education system (other than the cheating, the laughable wages and the cronyism) is that it focuses on rote learning, simply memorising things. That is fine up to a certain point but then becomes a severe liability. That is why Polish students do comparatively well at an earlier age in subjects which are more suited to rote learning but once they get to university age they are left behind, as is clearly shown by the quality of Polish universities - although in fairness the quality of the students and the learning method are just two of the challenges Polish universities face.


Congratulations: you have just managed to come up with something that would be even less helpful to one particular Polish school than the proposed PIS reforms!

LOL
LOL
LOL
well, you're certainly a wonderful reason as to why the system needs changing.


no, you didn't.
you probably saw a 5 year old
Infancy stops when a child learns how to speak, so no you certainly didn't see a screaming infant in a uniform attending a school.

I must say Smurf that surprises me, being a primary school teacher myself and having taught Polish children in Ireland. I found them to be great little students. They are generally bright, very well behaved in class and fast learners. They also have to learn Irish and often do better at it than their Irish peers. Their problem tend to be poor attendance, fussy mothers keeping them off school when they sneeze and getting them dosed with anti-biotics if they have a slight sore throat or a bit of a temp. The boys are usually very lively and quickly learn to join in and play with others kids, the girls are a bit Miss Prissy Prim and overly sedate and demure. But as I say, never a problem with them in terms of learning.

Maybe I sounded a bit too harsh. She did like her pupils, but it's not an easy task having 'normal' 6 & 7 year olds who are up to speed on the curriculum and then you're landed with Pawel from Rzeszow who can't read/write his own language let alone English.

"They have everything to do with the topic."

Of course not. Have mercy for yourself and just hide in the closet. They have nothing to do with the starting age in Polish schools or Polish public schools in general.

These rankings, next to being totally Anglo-centric (surprisingly poor ratings of univs from countries like Germany, Russia, Japan or China) hence very doubtful, have simply nothing to do with public education systems. Some random Yank could now come here and say "we've got 7 univs in top 10, so you all shut the hell up, our public schools are the best". Well, they surely aren't...

"That is why Polish students do comparatively well at an earlier age in subjects which are more suited to rote learning but once they get to university age they are left behind"

You are totally clueless what the university level education is about, not surprising again.

It makes the job very hard and costs extra to get a classroom assistant in.

G, have you ever studied at the Polish university? I have, at two of them, and than I went to study in the UK. The Polish university, unfortunately, can't even start to compete with the British one. And I studied at one of the best unis in Poland, and the uni in the UK was no Oxford. I'm sorry to say this, but our unis suck.

Perhaps they do but...

1. They whole thing with universities is off-topic here really, just some "expat" brought it up when losing any real arguments...
2. I'm well aware of commie grandpa "professors" and all of that but still it has nothing to do with Polish students "once they get to university age they are left behind". University level education is simply not about "teaching" in the sense of developing skills like in the early years of education.

Some sad edited here, once proven to be wrong on the actually issue, will simply keep moving on to unrelated things. We are about 10 posts before "Poland is taking so much money from the EU" and 15 before "Polish anti-semitism".

Still wondering when you'll retract your claim about reading/writing being taught in zerówka.

We are actually closer to that than you think.

Yawn... It's commonly taught, not the formal school way but it is, I had it quite a few years ago and not much has change since then as I'm aware and your links to some programs and such stuff won't change the reality.

It's not commonly taught in public nurseries. Stop trying to pretend that you've got any knowledge whatsoever about what is currently happening in public Polish nurseries. Private nurseries are a different story.

Perhaps he's planning to claim that one of the proposed PIS reforms is that it will be taught in zerowka.


Not at all. The entire Polish education system needs reforming, including the universities, as is shown by the fact that the UK (where people are no cleverer or more stupid than Poland - well, not much more stupid anyway) has 37 universities in the top 300 in the world and Poland has zero.


Yes, and the problem is that the earlier years in Poland focus too much on rote learning for students to manage with the academic performance that is needed in higher education.


I haven't been an expat for years. I'm a migrant now, just like you.

Universities are where students go after they finish school, so they are perfect places for assessing schools' performance.
btw, I have fifteen years' teaching experience in Poland (and seven years elsewhere), 13 of which in universites. If you think that my knowledge is merely anecdotal, there really is no point in discussing the issue with you.

"Not at all."

Of course it is. It has nothing to do with the starting age in public schools. Even If you somehow attempted to claim that it shows quality of students, one just needs a quick look at the methodology behind such rankings to know that it's not really what they measure there.

Probably, or he'll claim that it's an example of PO incompetence.


I'd argue that the school system is actually working quite ok, but the university sector is an unbelievable joke. I cannot understand why the universities appear to be allowed to do whatever they want, which seems to include letting people pass exams simply because of who they know - and the concept of double marking appears to be completely absent.

Not where I work. At least not for exams.

"Universities are where students go after they finish school, so they are perfect places for assessing schools' performance."

Sweet Jezas, see dear expat, please kindly tell how this -> timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2015/world-university-rankings/methodology#tabs

assess "quality" of students - thus schools' performance as you claim.

Wow, really? The only time I've seen double marking was on the practical language courses, but not on the courses taught by normal academics.

In end of year writing exams all papers are checked and graded by two people. For the other exams the ss' index number is on the paper, not the name, reducing the possibility of you-know-what.

g, I am not an ex-pat. I am a citizen.

It's a bit tricky but it's not really that much of a problem. We've been dealing with this in Ireland for years now and every year I've had to deal with at least a fifth of my class having limited language skills. It actually doesn't matter at all whether Paweł can read and write in his own language. It's better in fact if he can't read at all. If he can, then he will start applying the rules of Polish phonics to English and that will be more of hindrance than a help. A six or seven year old can learn to read basic three and four letter phonetic words and a few sight words within about two months.

As for writing, there's two aspects to that; the physical mechanics of letter formation and then the ability to express oneself in written language. If the child hasn't developed their fine motor skills through pincer grip activities etc then they will struggle, no doubt about that. At that age they take about a year to get their writing skills up to speed. A Polish child is also at a disadvantage because by the age of six in the Irish system, children are able to copy from the blackboard/whiteboard, another skill that takes time to acquire. However in my own experience with the Irish kids who've been learning for two years their writing is fairly laboured and slow and still developing so again it's a minor issue. As far as expressing oneself on paper goes, generally six to seven year olds are beginners at that so it's not really a worry.

One of the big advantages is that Polish parents are very willing to spend time working with their child at home if the teacher requests it.

Just grinds everything to a halt. Really stupid situation. I don't know how to fix it. Maybe have new kids arrviing in a country attend language classes first.

That's probably doable in urban areas, but there'd be huge problems with it.


Ah OK, pretty interesting post.....maybe me auntie was a sh!te teacher ;)

I wish, I wish...

I'm sure she isn't/wasn't! I think the training you receive has a lot to do with it. The education system in the UK is very different to Ireland. She probably felt under pressure to have them up to speed with the rest of the class. The old pastoral care role is very strong here and the child comes first, the curriculum second. Your job as a teacher, particularly in primary school is to assist the child in their development and that should never be compromised in order to tick check boxes on a curriculum plan. You have to have individual education plans for several children in your class who aren't in the average zone for whatever reason, either because they're foreign nationals, super bright or slow learners. It isn't easy if you haven't been trained that way and if the system doesn't support it but it's do-able.


That's interesting. I imagine that Poles in Ireland, as immigrants are a very different kettle of fish to Poles in expensive private schools in Poland Delph. Parents of foreign nationals in Ireland are very anxious for their children to do well and extremely concerned about their English. I suppose in Poland affluent parents feel you are only a humble teacher and they're paying you to provide a service. It's your job, not theirs. What's your own view?