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Poland warns against deporting its workers: hypocrisy?


Harry
8 Jul 2011 #1
Poland warns against deporting its workers

"Deporting unemployed Poles and Eastern Europeans is dangerous," says Polish Economic Affairs Minister Waldemar Pawlak in an interview with Dutch newspaper Trouw.

Dutch Social Affairs Minister Henk Kamp wants to deport Eastern Europeans who do not speak Dutch and have no prospect of finding work.

Poland fears other countries may follow the Dutch example. The Polish government says the issue could strain relations if The Hague were to put its plans into effect.

rnw.nl/english/bulletin/poland-warns-against-deporting-its-workers

Given that British (and other EU citizens) need to have valid medical insurance in order to obtain and retain a certificate of right to reside in Poland, which is something that an unemployed person is highly unlikely to have, does anybody feel that Poland is being just a touch hypocritical here?
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
8 Jul 2011 #2
does anybody feel that Poland is being just a touch hypocritical here?

how can you deport someone and make them stay away when there is no border control.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
8 Jul 2011 #3
Henk Kamp is a fool and an extremist. But nevertheless Poland should afford others the same benefits its citizens receive elsewhere. Quickly.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
8 Jul 2011 #4
There is no two doubts about that, Jon. The EU is not a take-take-take organisation. Standards are to be harmonised as much as possible. Without delving into a discourse on this, suffice to say that rules are there to be followed.
poland_
9 Jul 2011 #5
Standards are to be harmonised as much as possible. Without delving into a discourse on this, suffice to say that rules are there to be followed.

I am in total agreement with you here Seanus, as members of the EU, there needs to be a system in place, that rewards those that contribute and work towards, a better future. We cannot afford to mortgage our children future for the sake of being politically correct anymore. If that means creating a fortress Europe with non porous borders so be it.
Ironside 51 | 11,499
9 Jul 2011 #6
Standards are to be harmonised as much as possible.

Well put Sean, Poland's farmers should be given the same money as the other EU farmers. It should be harmonized by all means.

As for deporting EU citizens from Holland. That is a crazy idea, they should think about that before-head, now is mighty too late.
I think this is a plot to prompt EU countries into direction of the European state.
Marynka11 4 | 676
9 Jul 2011 #7
I'm in favor of all European countries kicking out everyone who is jobless and abuses their social system, but the Belgium speaker targeting just one group is a little off. If he said they will deport all unemployed foreigners and those who don't speak whatever language they are speaking there, that would be fine. But saying explicitly Poles and Eastern Europeans creates certain image about the whole group, and that's not ok.
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
9 Jul 2011 #8
Maybe just eastern europeans havnt got the message yet? I myself have known the Dutch rules since the late 90s .
I had to play by them,why shouldnt eastern europeans?
Marynka11 4 | 676
9 Jul 2011 #9
I had to play by them,why shouldnt eastern europeans?

I'm sure there are plenty of Eastern Europeans who play by the rules. Stressing the whole group creates unnecessary animosity towards those who play by the rules.
Stu 12 | 522
9 Jul 2011 #10
Okay ... as a Dutch (although living in Poland) here is my two pennies worth:

The Netherlands is a small country. At the moment 170.000 Polish people are in the Netherlands. On a population of 16 million. That's over 1% of the population; it would be like there are almost 400.000 Dutch in Poland ... given that Poland is generally known for its friendliness towards foreigners, I guess it would cause some concern over here as well.

Especially if -in some cases- over 40% of people in homeless shelters would be Dutch, as is the case with regard to Poles in the Netherlands. The plan is that people from the EU (not only Poles or Bulgarians or Rumanians) will be expelled if they are without a job for over three months. To be honest, I can't see anything wrong with that. They will still receive social welfare during that period.

Then, if people commit crimes, they will be considered as "persona non grata". Anything wrong with that? Don't think so. Then, when one is eligable for social security, one should agree to attend an integration course. That means learning about the country, a little bit of its history, who-is-who in state and local authorities and learning the language. Anything wrong with that if a person decides to spend his life in a country? Don't think so.

Lastly, people who want to work in the Netherlands are to be required to register with the local authority. I had to do the same thing when I moved to Wroclaw. And I only got a 3 month registration to begin with. Why is that Poles cry foul when they expect the same from foreigners wanting to settle in their country?!

The reason behind this registration-rule: people use local resources, so they should pay taxes (like the rest of "us"), and this way you prevent abusing these workers by stuffing them with 15 people in a one-family home (which now happens all too often). This way the state also has a better grip on rogue temporary job agencies which try to make an extra bob with these practices.

Again ... it's not about Poles. It's about everyone from the EU.

I'm sure to be getting a lot of flag and abuse, but again - I see nothing wrong with stricter rules. More liberal rules were tried, but unfortunately they failed. Too much abuse, too many people falling through the cracks and ending up in homeless shelters or drunk in front of railway stations, shopping centres and what have you.

One question: suppose I, as a foreigner in Wroclaw, would be drunk on Rynek all the time, going out stealing and exhibiting other unruly behaviour, being arrested by the police on a regular basis, and it would not only be me but quite a few "other EU-nationals" (like Brits, Germans, French, Spanish, etc) living over here. What would be the reaction of the people in Wroclaw? What would happen to me/us?
Daisy 3 | 1,225
9 Jul 2011 #11
Stu, it's the same in the UK. I'm fed up with seeing Romanian Big Issue sellers.
Denmark is going the same way is Holland, the thing our countries have in common is a good social welfare system, which used to work, but it's being overstretched and is about to crumble. A third of public sector workers are now being made redundant because of it, myself included, I lose my job in October, hopefully I'll find another job before the redundancy money runs out.
Stu 12 | 522
9 Jul 2011 #12
I lose my job in October

I'm very sorry to hear that, Daisy. I do hope everything will turn out okay for you. These must be extremely stressful times for you.

Public services and the social welfare system ARE stretched and it makes me angry when I read about people who knowingly abuse it (for example benefit cheats who say they live apart, but are in fact living together with a partner) and in some cases, like with this Somali guy Abdisamad Sufi (it was in some of the Friday's UK papers), nothing can be done about it because of extremely liberal EU-rules.

Things need to change. These people should be send back, if it only was to avoid painting all people from a certain country with the same brush. Not all Somali's are like him, not all Poles, Rumanians, Bulgarians, etc are drunk in front of shopping centres and railway stations (allthough between Wednesday and Friday I've seen my fair share of them when I was in London - kvrwa and pierd0le where frequently heard words - I never hear "godverdomme" and "kut" when meeting Dutch people abroad for some reason). Criminals should be send back - no matter what.

If non-EU or EU-nationals lose their jobs, they should find something else within three or six months (even through a temporary job agency) or face expulsion. This automatically means that they will have to integrate into society (i.e. learn the language), because otherwise they won't find a job.
modafinil - | 418
9 Jul 2011 #13
Henk Kamp is an arse. However is it so much to ask Poland to take responsibility for their own people? An economic migrant who has gone to another eu country where they cannot be bothered to learn the language of their host nation doesn't have much chance of becoming employed where Dutch speaking people are without employment.

I've seen it here many times that people say not to even attempt to find work in Poland without speaking its language. Poland's EU migrants once had a good reputation for being hard working but after a period of unemployment without success, it is not the eu model to stay and bum around. The open borders are for a mobilised work force not a way to expunge your burden. It must negate the reputation of ex-pats who are holding down a job their and doing Poland proud.
ender 5 | 398
9 Jul 2011 #14
Stop moaning!!! Do what you have to do but treat Poles and other Central European same way as you treat own citizens. You can not give benefits to own citizen (some of beneficent has never seen job in his life) and not give to Central European, other way lets forget experiment called EU. SIMPLE!
alexw68
9 Jul 2011 #15
SIMPLE!

Not entirely. No one is proposing that no benefits are given, only that they are given for the right reasons and for the right amount of time. Encouraging benefit dependency - whether it's in the UK or back home - helps nobody.

If a Brit comes to Poland and loses their teaching job after 3 months for being pissed on the job then applies for benefit in Poland, gets it and does nothing for the next 9 months to find work, they deserve to get kicked out. In fact, Polish law demands that they can't do that.

Which is fair. What's wrong with making that reciprocal?
ender 5 | 398
9 Jul 2011 #16
If a Brit comes to Poland and loses their teaching job after 3 months for being pissed on the job then applies for benefit in Poland, gets it and does nothing for the next 9 months to find work

After 9 moths he or Pole can starve to death who gives a flip?
Ironside 51 | 11,499
9 Jul 2011 #17
Once again for a slow ones.
Deporting is simply another way of wasting monies and for the said politician to gain some support (must be desperate).
What would achieve deporting while the borders in the EU are open?think!
It would make sense in uk, probably.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
9 Jul 2011 #18
as a Dutch (although living in Poland)

it would be like there are almost 400.000 Dutch in Poland

You mean 399999? ;)

The plan is that people from the EU (not only Poles or Bulgarians or Rumanians) will be expelled if they are without a job for over three months.

To be honest, I think a better solution would be to put people on the social welfare to work.
Cleaning graffiti, filling potholes, gardening etc... If any nationality is ridding the system, the system should use them.
There is virtually a whole army of people on the social welfare that could benefit society as a whole.

I think that would get many people off social welfare.

I think deportation is wrong but forcing people to work, who are unemployed, is the way to go.

What would achieve deporting while the borders in the EU are open?think!

Didn't France pay and send Roma people to other countries? what a waste of money, it's all open boarders now, they could just come back legally any time they like.

Although criminals is a different issue, I think each country should deal with their own criminals, one way or another.
I like the Federal law versus State law like they have in the U.S.. Interpol versus national police.
ender 5 | 398
9 Jul 2011 #19
And how much time have you spent as a volunteer working for the good of Poland?

Too many?! Fruits of my work has been sold for peanuts to your kind.

Why not? Poland certainly does precisely that.

Prove it! Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true (most probable it's a lie). Poland gives so big benefits that you can find bigger in the streets of London this is main reason why foreigner don't bother to ask for them.

I have my own company and pay a rather large amount of tax every month (well, I pay VAT quarterly rather than monthly).

How can you not pay PERSONAL TAX. Be nice and explain to us how to avoid tax in Poland. David_18 WAS right.
I can't believe how retarded people can be. Here is one example:

unless you have proof, it is defamation of character

I want Harry out of Poland because I don't like and that reason is equally good as any English or Dutch.
I get a fright you might be a Pole. What a relief.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
9 Jul 2011 #20
Not sure whatever you agree with me or not ?

Yes, I agree of course, there are no boarders and if you kick someone out, they can just come back, like in France.

why should immigrants/entrepreneurs in PL, who have set up and operate their own business,be sent packing,

Because it's a personal grudge rather than a "real life" example.
poland_
9 Jul 2011 #21
Yes, I agree of course, there are no boarders and if you kick someone out, they can just come back, like in France.

I would like to throw something out here, as a European we have borders of the mind, if you are kicked out of PL and have to go back to the UK as an example. As a EU resident, you would NOT return to PL, as you are easily traceable through your resident card/passport. As a NON EU ( illegal alien, African, Asian et al), you have already crossed frontiers illegally so if you are kicked out of the France, it would be easy to return, as you have already been immersed in the sub existence culture.

One more I would vote all those foreigners feedings on Poland.

This is quite an interesting point.

Ender, what would be your criteria for ridding Poland of these foreigners, how would you ascertain, who should stay and who should go?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
9 Jul 2011 #22
As a EU resident, you would NOT return to PL, as you are easily traceable through your resident card/passport.

So they kick you out again and again.
That's why it's a waste of time, money and effort.

Put them to work, there is a lot to be done and a whole army of people to do it with.

Also being on social welfare cripples people, they become, after some time, institutionalised and dependant.
Putting them to work would rid this mentality and make the country a better place, it's a win win!

How much is social welfare in Poland? When are you eligible for it? and for how long?

Given that British (and other EU citizens) need to have valid medical insurance in order to obtain and retain a certificate of right to reside in Poland, which is something that an unemployed person is highly unlikely to have, does anybody feel that Poland is being just a touch hypocritical here?

Have you ever heard of anyone being deported?
My understanding is you are saying that they are doing this through legislation but don't you get medical insurance on the dole?

I wonder why the Netherlands is targetting Eastern Europeans who generally work hard ?

They are not targeting ''Eastern Europeans'' but they are targeting non-nationals who are not working and claiming money from the tax payer.

The more I look at things the more I think Western Europeans are generally retarded

Does it hurt when you try to think? you should give it up.
modafinil - | 418
9 Jul 2011 #23
I wonder why the Netherlands is targetting Eastern Europeans who generally work hard ?

Yet, Is not targetting Muslims who have caused alot or problems such as how Theo Van Gogh was murdered.

The more I look at things the more I think Western Europeans are generally retarded LOL

They are, but this is PolishForums, not deflect-onto-muslims-forums
poland_
9 Jul 2011 #24
So they kick you out again and again.That's why it's a waste of time, money and effort.

I see you your point Sean, and believe me I am all up for putting people to work, re-educating them to contribute. I would also be in favor of Wroclawboys, barter system for them, if they want a new bed or fridge, make them work for it. As we both know Poland has not seen the same levels of immigrants as the Netherlands, France, UK or Germany, because they don't have much of a welfare system. There is also not a large underground network of Asians and Africans offering low paid jobs to the latest immigrants. My main worry would be if you set a precedence and welcome in the latest wave of illegal immigrants with jobs, there are millions of them waiting at the gates of the EU, waiting to get through. Your a well travelled man Sean, you know exactly what I am talking about when you go to places like North Africa or Eur/Asia.
ender 5 | 398
9 Jul 2011 #25
Hypocrisy? Some foreigners in Poland to avoid Polish higher income tax pay the tax in their native country where income limits are much higher then Polish. Shame on you. Personally don't care but don't you dare to complain abut Poles taking benefits they EARNED when you in fact support own country benefits system.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
9 Jul 2011 #26
My main worry would be if you set a precedence and welcome in the latest wave of illegal immigrants with jobs,

Wait a sec, we are talking about E.U. citizens within the E.U.
I am not talking about people who are illegal, as I said before criminals are a different matter.

But people from anywhere in the world who are legal and not working should be put to work.

You know yourself, driving in Poland, imagine thousands of people filling the potholes, some day my friend....some day :)
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
9 Jul 2011 #27
Poland gives so big benefits that you can find bigger in the streets of London this is main reason why foreigner don't bother to ask for them.

After consulting the codex............... Erm,you do realise this is prescisly why Poles out of work in other eu countries are staying in them and not going home.......

I think a better solution would be to put people on the social welfare to work.
Cleaning graffiti, filling potholes, gardening etc... If any nationality is ridding the system, the system should use them.
There is virtually a whole army of people on the social welfare that could benefit society as a whole.

And what happens to all the people that do those jobs as an honest living?
Of course its tempting to say make them work for their hand outs but that can only ever work to the good of sociaty if there is already full employment for all those who want and need it.

Ironside: Not sure whatever you agree with me or not ?
Yes, I agree of course, there are no boarders and if you kick someone out, they can just come back, like in France.

A simple register of workers would mean anyone re entering would not be able to work legally............

The more I look at things

when you rip your gaze from the Burgers and Fries that is........
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
9 Jul 2011 #28
And what happens to all the people that do those jobs as an honest living?

There is more work than there is man power, at the moment.
Job creation is easy:), you are already paying them.

Edit*I put a smiley face at "Job creation is easy:) " because of the 100% employment during communism :)

A simple register of workers would mean anyone re entering would not be able to work legally............

I would assume that if someone were to re-enter, many would not be working legally.
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
9 Jul 2011 #29
and unable to claim legal benefits either :)
ender 5 | 398
9 Jul 2011 #30
Erm,you do realise this is prescisly why Poles out of work in other eu countries are staying in them and not going home.......

Erm and who's fault is it?
My point is Poland treat eaqually Poles AND other Europeans (eaqully bad). They don't try kick out foreigner from country just because he has no job anymore and he lost his right to benefits after 6, 9 month. DO YOU UNDERSTAND DIFFERENCE.


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