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Poland under pressure of EU to accept more asylum seeking refugees

Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #61

No, the refugee problem does concern only Italy and Greece only but the whole Europe since 75% of all refugees end up in 5 countries (UK, Germany, France, Sweden and if I remember Spain).

As to EU money, if not important to Poland, why does Poland take it????? ;)

wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #62

If they are so stupid to accept most of applications for refugee status (especially Sweden) its their problem. In countries like Poland or Hungary 99% of applications are rejected because they are nothing more than scams in most cases.

France simply fortfied its border with Italy to prevent illegals from coming there btw.

Launch EU mission at mediterranean sea. Turn back every boat we detect near Libya shore. Launch air strikes against empty boats at Libyan ports. Send special forces against smugglers groups. Feed, give cloths, 5 euro and deport everyone coming here illegaly in boats.

I guarantee that after few months this mess will end - small chanches for succes = less people willing to pay smugglers for transport to Europe. As i said most of them aren't refugees anyway, they are economic immigrants.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #63

The problem is indeed rather complex but Poland shall do as being told (Poland cannot afford to play the "tough guy")
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #64

Such cheap rhetoric won't work here.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #65

@Wjtk: "beggars don't choose". Poland does not have the power to dictate its way as it depends so much on EU money. Only those who pay have their word to say. No matter what, it is always this way and you cannot change reality!
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #66

You are a Greek, aren't you? <lol>

1) We are not depended from EU money
2) we can co-create EU policy just like any other EU country and that actually happens in many areas. Oen your eyes,
3) we certainly have last word on subject who will come here,
4) EU is not a dictatorship. Every country has voice, rights, votes, veto rights. If we had to do whatever Germany, France, UK wants without right to say ,,no" we would not be in the EU.

You live in some alternative reality. Time to come back to earth.

You can post 1000 same mesages but it won't change anything - noone is coming here.
wino Activity: - / 31
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 ♀
 
19 Jun 2015  #67

@Wino: you don't understand :) but it is clear 1. Poland has joined the EU (without habing the knife Under the throat) and thus is part of the whole

But that is just the thing, nobody has to receive economic migrants, so it is not even about solidarity. Plenty of countries in the world don't do that. If some EU countries feel it would be beneficial to them they can open their arms and great them, if not they should be send back. There is a big difference between ecnomic migrants and refugees.

2. Poland is no.1 EU funds receipient

So?? I have already explained why it is not as simple as you are trying to portay it.

3. EU is not a supermarket, members take the whole deal or they .... get the he.. out (= no more money for Poland)

You don't know how the EU works, do you?learn that and then we can talk.

4. "why should other countries accept Polish economic migrants?"

Because Poland is a part of EU? Because other coutries agreed to Poland joining EU?
Because Poland wouldn't protest other EU member states' citizens to migrate to Poland?
Also, If Great Britain decides to leave EU and cast out Poles working there I will not protest as it would be their right.

As to EU money, if not important to Poland, why does Poland take it????? ;)

Again, I have summarized pros and cons of Poland in EU a few posts back, but since you either dodn't read it or arguments don't do it for you, I shall answer on your level- Why EU gives them?

. Turn back every boat

Exactly, Australia did it and with great success. We should also remember that lots of people die trying to get to Europe, so maintainig status quo doesn't do anyone any favors.

Such cheap rhetoric won't work here.

Is it even a rhetoric? IMO you are too generous.

@Wjtk: "beggars don't choose". Poland does not have the power to dictate its way as it depends so much on EU money. Only those who pay have their word to say. No matter what, it is always this way and you cannot change reality!

That is not how EU works. Must be frustrating for you, is that why you are on this forum?
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #68

wjtk; you alone don't decide what Poland is going to do. At most you can protest or vote (if you are a Polish citizen) for the representative that matches your ideals most closely. EU is not a dictatorship, absolutely. But money talks no?

Let us have a look at actual numbers. Here is official data on Poland's State budget for 2015 from the Ministry of Finance, in English;

mf.gov.pl/en/ministry-of-finance/state-budget/estimated-execution-of-the-state-budget

EU funds direct cash contribution to Polish state budget, which the Polish government is free to spend however they wish is 1.5 Billion Zloty.

EU contribution to projects that are co financed from Polish state budget is 49.2 Billion Zloty.

EU Grants + contribution to all other projects = 303.7 Billion Zloty.

Total EU contribution: 354.4 Billion Zloty estimated for 2015.
These figures may vary slightly depending on exchange rate variations, rate of project execution and release of payments etc, so look at this as a ballpark figure.

Now let's put this EU contribution into perspective in relationship to where Poland stands financially today:
Polish State Revenue for 2015, estimated: 297.2 Billion Zloty.
Polish State Expense for 2015, estimated: 343.2 Billion Zloty.
Poland's GDP 2013: USD 517.5 Billion =~ 1,480 Billion Zloty per exchange rates of 31/12/2013.

This means that EU's contribution to Poland is bigger than the entire revenue or expense budget of the Polish state, and equal to about 24% of Poland's entire GDP.

This is only one financial aspect. The other one is all the other investments originating from other EU countries and coming to Poland, not as a part of the EU funds, but facilitated and made possible by Poland's EU membership.

Here are 3 examples, and this data is from 2013 and the source is Polish Info & Investment Agency (paiz.gov.pl/poland_in_figures/foreign_direct_investment)

Germany: EUR 27.5 Billion
Holland: EUR 25.9 Billion
France: EUR 19.1 Billion
Total (for only 3 EU countries) = EUR 72.5 Billion = ~ 293.6 Billion Zloty. Again, this figure is about the same as the entire Polish State revenue budget and equal to about 20% of Poland's GDP for the same year (2013).

Edited to add: I don't know how many jobs money from EU creates in Poland exactly, but how about you guess how many jobs can be created with 350 Billion Zloty per year?

So, you say you are ready to give up not less than 45% of Poland's GDP in terms of EU funds and EU investments to avoid hosting a few refugees? Did you know that the EU will pay Poland per each refugee taken EUR 6,000 per year= PLN 24,000 per year = PLN 2,000 per month, which is a salary that some Polish FAMILIES live on? This literally means the Polish state's cost for accepting refugees is zero or close to zero. All that is needed is for Polish people to volunteer some of their time to help potential refugees assimilate into Polish society and learn the Polish way of life.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #69

@Polsyr: thanks for your detailed info! :)

@wtjk: 1. My country became a EU over 40 years ago ;) 2. I have worked at EU institutions and 3 and conclusion: I obviously know more than you do re EU ;)
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #70

@Polsyr Unfortunately info provided by you is total bs.

You do realize that total value of EU funds provided by you is the value for time period 2014-2020, NOT FOR ONE YEAR ONLY? So you have to multiply Polish yearly budget x7 to get full picture?

You do realize that Polish direct contribution into EU budget for time period 2014-2020 is 30 BILLIONS EURO (more than 120 billion ZL)?
bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Skladka-Polski-do-budzetu-UE-w-latach-2014-2020-wyniesie-ok-30-mld-euro-Serafin-2760521.html

You do realize that Poland contribute into EU budget also in a few different ways and we have to pay alot to get any EU funds?

tomaszcukiernik.pl/artykuly/teksty-o-unii-europejskiej/prawda-i-falsz-o-dotacjach-z-ue

You do realize that value of EU funds provided by you is MAXIUMUM what we can get and in fact we are awarded with much less?

You didn't realize all of that? Well, i'm not suprised, your understanding of Poland and the EU is close 0.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #71

@Wjtk; what you need to consider is 1. what Poland pays and 2. what Poland gets and you'll see that no.2 is much higher. Only a few Western countries pays more than what they get. Poland is well no.1 in terms of benifiting from EU funds and no one can deny it
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #72

I provided value of EU funds for only 2015. For the time period you mentioned, multiply by 8 (not 7). The total amount is about EUR 700 Billion meaning PLN 2.8 Trillion. Polish State contribution to EU funds is stated clearly in their budget. It is PLN 18.1 Billion for 2015, mentioned clearly here: mf.gov.pl/documents/764034/3397368/20150601_state_budget_expenditure_IV_2015.pdf

My data is from Polish Government. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't make it false as you imply.

Too late to edit, I was looking at 2013-2020, not 2014-2020, so 8 years not 7. My data is on EU contributions for 1 year only, 2015.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #73

Oh stop manipulating, non of documents provided by you says that Poland is receiving 303.7 Billion PLN per year from the EU!!! You don't even understand source you are posting here.

parp.gov.pl/index/more/36950

Here is official EU/Polish government site clearly saying that for time period 2014-2020 Poland will receive 82,5 billions euro. Every single government site is saying the same, aswell as politics if you google what they are saying.

Polish TOTAL contribution into EU budget in 2014-2020 is 30 billions euro. So in fact what we can really get 52,5 billions euro which is MAXIMUM what we can get between 2014-2020. In fact it will be much less.

Hahahah, i can't believe you thought we are getting 82 billions euro per year.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #74

@wjtk: thanks to confirm that Poland depeends so much upon EU funds
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #75

@wjtk; that is for only cohesion funds. What about the rest?
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #76

Oh did i? EU funds are 5-8% of Polish yearly budget according to info i provided here. That numbers doesn't include cost of upkeepeing useless EU institutions in Poland, other financial burdens we have suffer due to our participation in the EU and the fact that we don't use ALL EU funds.

It also doesn't include the fact that that money are often spent on useless investitions like oversized aquaparks which we later have to upkeep. It doesn't really benefit into Polish economy youknow

Not to mention that we were doing very well before we jointed the EU.
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #77

Not to mention that we were doing very well before we jointed the EU.

That is pure bs.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #78

@Wjtk: everythins in Poland is now financed by the EU and thanks to EU, millions of Poles can go abroad for work and they send their monies earned abroad to Poland.

If EU is so bad for Poland, why no body wants to get out???? The soup taskes too god ;)
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #79

@Polsyr, again you present pure ignorance about the subject.

Poland doubled its GDP between 1989-2004, we enjoyed higher economy growth than today, every single statistic was better before 2004 like rise of export, rise of wages.

In 1992 Ukraine was richer than Poland, in 2004 it was way behind it. Poland made huge step forward between 1989-2004 without being in the EU.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #80

@Wjtk; especially in those days, all companies in Poland were from the West ;). Without those companies' money and then without EU's money, Poland would never make it.
Harry Activity: 65 / 13,457
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #81

If i had to choose i'd say they can keep their money and their illegals.

a) They aren't illegal immigrants.
b) In 2013 Poland got EUR 11.69371 billion more from the EU than it contributed. Given that the request is that Poland takes 960 people from from outside the EU, that's EUR 12,180,948 per person. Whilst we clearly can't appeal to your better nature or your basic humanity for your fellow man, even you must be able to see the economic idiocy of telling the EU to keep its money and its refugees.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #82

@Harry

No, you don't understand my worries. Today it's 1.000. Next year it will be 10.000. In 5 years it will be 100.000. I think such policy is blind, short-sighted and wrong. As i said before if we open the door now this people will never stop coming and most of them aren't refugees but economic immigrants. We have to end that fast not only for Poland but for whole European Union. Even France, Gemrany and UK can't accept half of Africa and middle-east.

Not to mention that that boats are backdoor to the EU for ISIS terrorists.
rozumiemnic Activity: 9 / 2,955
Joined: 16 Nov 2009 ♀
 
19 Jun 2015  #83

You are probably right w. but you know, these things do not happen in a vacuum.
The vast majority of refugees to the EU are coming from Syria, Afghanistan and Somalia.
What do these countries have in common?
Harry Activity: 65 / 13,457
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #84

In 5 years it will be 100.000.

a) Or it might be zero in five years. If you can predict the future, please tell me the lotto numbers for this weekend. Thanks.

b) So what if it is 100,000? That's still a fraction of the number of people Poland has lost since we joined the EU.

Syria, Afghanistan and Somalia.
What do these countries have in common?

The letters 'i' and 'a'?
Oh, and overwhelming preponderance of skin colours which the opponents of "illegal Immigrants" object to, let's not forget that.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #85

@rozumiemnic - boat people are coming mainly via Libya, recklessly destroyed by USA and France.

a) Or it might be zero in five years. If you can predict the future, please tell me the lotto numbers for this weekend. Thanks.

According to current trends it will be rising, especially if they learn that we are letting them in. There is nothing suggesting that i can stop in nearest future.

b) So what if it is 100,000? That's still a fraction of the number of people Poland has lost since we joined the EU.

100.000 people not speaking Polish, mostly without any skills, in country with 10% unemployment, with very little social care, from social circles hardly assimilating into local population (example of western europe speaks for itself). Easy to predict the result.

Oh, and overwhelming preponderance of skin colours which the opponents of "illegal Immigrants" object to, let's not forget that.

I already said in this topic that such idiotic accusations are not making any impression on me. This is about social and cultural problems, not skin colour. I have nothing against that 60 families form Syria (most of them are probably dark-skinned) because of their very specific situation and because it's our initiative, not the EU.
rozumiemnic Activity: 9 / 2,955
Joined: 16 Nov 2009 ♀
 
19 Jun 2015  #86

overwhelming preponderance of skin colours

well ofc there is that as well.
No I was thinking of the oil wars that have been created there for the advantage of the 'west'.
People forget about that.
Interestingly the EU was a Nazi idea, and look who is in charge now!
not to mention the Busch family.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #87

No I was thinking of the oil wars that have been created there for the advantage of the 'west'.

Exaclty, the WEST. In Libyan case not for advantage of Poland, Hungary or Czech Rep, but for France, USA, Italy and others. They ate the cake and now they expect us to share the cost of their actions.
Dougpol1 Activity: 19 / 1,596
Joined: 26 Jan 2014 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #88

Poland doubled its GDP between 1989-2004

Only doubled? From the mighty figure of how many dollars in 1989 (since the commies were so fond of labelling everything in dollars) And you are boasting of so pathetic a 5 year economic performance?

I would laugh out loud but Poland in the early 90s was a complete and utter mess. Were you actually here?

A 16 year old could have raised productivity once a totalitarian parent was banished to the garages to play with their dirty magazines (or better still, promptly died off re: the Kiszczaks of this world)

I mention communists because all those who bang on about Polish nationalism and the "interfering EU" have no concept of how ****** Poland was by 40 years of criminality, ergo, they are as bad as the commies, because they would perpetuate the damage if elected, by refusing to fast track the modernisation of the country.

Go and travel to Chorzow or Bytom - no disrespect to people living there, but thousands of streets are unfit for human habitation and need flattening, and it can only happen with EU money - you can of course be ignorant and pretend that such slums don't exist, like you turn a blind eye to refugees.

Watch the pictures from the boat It is not so long since it was Polish children crying out for help. It makes me sick that my adopted nation is so selfish.

100.000 people not speaking Polish, mostly without any skills, in country with 10% unemployment, with very little social care, from social circles hardly assimilating into local population (example of western europe speaks for itself). Easy to predict the result.

Now you're being facetious. Poland is being asked to take a quota - that's all. Who knows what that is - linked to GDP and size of landmass I suspect.

But I agree with you that Jon for one has got it wrong.

The Poles as usual will only think of themselves and will refuse any such quotas - which is part of the reason why, diplomatically, behind closed doors, Poland is the unspeakable. And this will not help Poles when they travel (unless they are rich Poles of course.....)
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #89

If improving after 1989 was so easy why Ukraine made few steps back, it was rmuch richer than Poland in 1992? Why Poland was one of most successfull post-communist economies? It's also easy to find stats about 1995-2004 period, after first wave of economic changes. We did very well back then too.

Go and travel to Chorzow or Bytom - no disrespect to people living there, but thousands of streets are unfit for human habitation and need flattening, and it can only happen with EU money - you can of course be ignorant and pretend that such slums don't exist,

Such places can be found in every single EU state.

Watch the pictures from the boat It is not so long since it was Polish children crying out for help.

I've seen plenty of photos from varius sources (not only mainstream, political correct sites) and what strikes me is that most of them are young, strong, able males, not women and children. WTF are they doing here, instead stand and fight they left their families and run to EU through the sea? Actually not, they are economic imigrants, not some refugees.

I remember one interview with 21 year old refugee residing in Greece. He said something like ,,yeah it was terrible there, war and such. I left and came here, my parents and sisters are still there". No comment.

Now you're being facetious. Poland is being asked to take a quota - that's all. Who knows what that is - linked to GDP and size of landmass I suspect.
But I agree with you that Jon for one has got it wrong.

The Poles as usual will only think of themselves and will refuse any such quotas - which is part of the reason why, diplomatically, behind closed doors, Poland is the unspeakable. And this will not help Poles when they travel (unless they are rich Poles of course.....)

No - EU wants to decide who and in what numbers will come to Poland. We are saying that we won't let EU to decide about that. If we accapet anyone this will be on our terms.
Harry Activity: 65 / 13,457
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #90

I've seen plenty of photos from varius sources (not only mainstream, political correct sites) and what strikes me is that most of them are young, strong, able males, not women and children. WTF are they doing here, instead stand and foght they left their families and run to EU though the sea?

If you went to pretty much any town in Polska B in 2006 to 2008-ish, you would have been forgiven for thinking that there had been a war: there were virtually no men to be seen there between the ages of 18 and 30, because so many of them had gone to the UK. Why would you expect immigrants from other places to be any different?

No - EU wants to decide how and in what numbers will come to Poland. We are saying that we won't let EU to decide about that. If we accapet anyone this will be on our terms.

The EU isn't a cafeteria, Poland doesn't get to pick and choose to only take the bits it thinks are good.




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Poland under pressure of EU to accept more asylum seeking refugees
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