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Poland under pressure of EU to accept more asylum seeking refugees


Gosc123456  
18 Jun 2015  #31

@Jacek: it's just like taxpayers from Western Europe who can ask themselves what the benefit for them to sponsorize Poland is. ;)

OP Levi Activity: 15 / 583
Joined: 24 May 2011 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #32

@Jacek: Without the need to be politically correct (hopefully Poland is not into Political Correctness dictatorship yet), there would be no good, Jacek.

Legal Immigrant Muslims is ok... (as any other kind of legal immigrant), as long as they dont demand people to convert or their rules to be applied in Poland, like they do in Christian countries like Philippines.

But Illegal immigrants are a much more, extremely serious and complicated issue.

@Gosc: Silly comparison. Poles go to work abroad to have a better life and contribute to the economy They dont go to live in Welfare FUNDED BY THE TAXPAYER and try to impose their religion.

And by the way, Ramadan Kareem for you all.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #33

@Gosc123456 - Free access to massive Polish market , easy investments, not to mention that large sums of EU funds are going back to Germany/France/UK via contracts with western companies.

Seriously, stop crying about that EU funds becase:
a) they are very small in comparing to Polish budget. What we actually get each year is something like 5% of our yearly spendings.
b) often they are spend on meaningless, useless investments.
Also Polan IS NOT depended from EU funds. Army, administration, health care, social security etc. are payed with Polish taxpayers money alone, not with EU money. Without EU money some investments (highways etc.) in Poland would have advanced a bit slower, but generally Poland would be doing very well aswell. Poland had been developing very well even before we jointed EU, certainly much faster.

Not to mention that to use EU funds effectively we have to take a lot of loans (because for example EU will pay for 40% of investment), because at some point we didn't have enough money to contribute. All of that results in very uneffective budget planning, reckless spendings etc.

Latest running meme in Poland is: ,,since we are in EU in typical Polish city due to EU regulations two fabrics gone bankrupt, most of local shopowners gone bankrupt, energy prices went up drasticly, 5% of local population emigrated,. In exchange EU built 10 km of sidewalk, 50 km or roads, one aquapark and museum of modern art. **** yeah."
Harry Activity: 65 / 13,518
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #34

The basic requirements for permanent residency?

No. People who get into boats in Libya and head towards Italy before being picked up at sea most certainly have not broken any Polish law at all. They would not be illegal immigrants here and are not illegal immigrants in Italy. You will be no better than them if you move to Poland.
Gosc123456  
18 Jun 2015  #35

@Wjtv: I have asked about the TAXPAYERS not about those big companies which come to Poland because salaries are much lower and as a result make big unemployment in Western countries. Ask people! Taxpayers in said countries get nothing, they just pay (result: very powerful extreme right parties, today general election in Denmark and the extreme right is expected to make huge scores).

If you check in Poland, everything is financed by the EU funds (it is always indicated for each project). There is no way Polish sole taxpayers could have financed for instance Warsaw metro, the roads, the renovation and equipment of hospitals, the school equipment such as computers... If according to you, Polish could do without EU funds, why do Poland cry for funds and where does the money go to????

@Wjtk; if according to you, very little was built with EU money in Poland, where the hell did the money go? It high time to demand Polish politicians to justify.
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #36

@gosc; this is typical ultranationalist and anti-EU talk, could very well be copy paste from one of their sites. They throw these arbitrary numbers but they never say where they got them from. Also, they seem to think that balancing the Polish budget is like buying groceries or something, and "only 5%" is easy to manage from somewhere else. Total ignorance fueled by increasingly aggressive far right media these days.

To be on topic, the Polish gov is resisting the quota proposal, but I see this simply as an act to appeal to uneducated and conservative voters.
OP Levi Activity: 15 / 583
Joined: 24 May 2011 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #37

You are talking bollocks harry.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS also broke the Polish law. Specially the entire chapter 3 of the new immigration law published in 2013.

When a immigrant in Poland without have been considered legally a asylum provided refugee from UE or Republic of Poland, he is disrespecting the ENTIRE chapter.

He is committing a crime against the constitution.

And the UE, according to the votation of the last general meeting WILL NOT PROVIDE asylum status to the 160 000 illegals that invaded Europe through Mediterranean.

FORTUNATELY the serious eastern European countries voted against this absurd suggested by socialists of repopulate Europe with people that enter Europe committing a crime.
Dougpol1 Activity: 19 / 1,596
Joined: 26 Jan 2014 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #38

Without EU money some investments (highways etc.) in Poland would have advanced a bit slower

Can you qualify the adjective "bit"?

Without EU money Poland would still be eating perogi for lunch and supper and the girls would still have hair all over their legs.

In other words - the country would still be a backward non-entity.
Gosc123456  
18 Jun 2015  #39

@Dougpol: true but Poles don't want to admit it. Without EU, Poland would be like Moldavia.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #40

@gosc; this is typical ultranationalist and anti-EU talk, could very well be copy paste from one of their sites. They throw these arbitrary numbers but they never say where they got them from. Also, they seem to think that balancing the Polish budget is like buying groceries or something, and "only 5%" is easy to manage from somewhere else. Total ignorance fueled by increasingly aggressive far right media these days.

To be on topic, the Polish gov is resisting the quota proposal, but I see this simply as an act to appeal to uneducated and conservative voters.

,,far-right, ultranationalistic, uneducated". What a primitive post, do you really think that such pathetic insults makes any impression on me? And who do you think you are to judge me or say who i am? I know it may work in Wester Europe but overhere people are much more independend in their opinions and you cannot simply silence someone by using key-words like ,,far-right, racism" etc.

Like it or not, most of Poles are against accepting illegals - no matter what age they are, what's their profession. It doesn't suprise me, too many of them saw western europe, too many of them know what's economic and social price of such reckless policy.

Without EU money Poland would still be eating perogi for lunch and supper and the girls would still have hair all over their legs.

In other words - the country would still be a backward non-entity.

true but Poles don't want to admit it. Without EU, Poland would be like Moldavia.

Poor souls, fed up with propaganda. Poland entered EU in 2004 and it was already well developed country, with massive economy growth (much higher than today), which easily multiplied its GDP in time period 1989-2004 (we didn't need EU for that). Even without EU we would continue to rise, develop and get richer and richer, just like we did earlier without the EU.

Plenty of countires around the world are developing without the EU or natural resources. How narrow-minded you have to be to think that there is no growth without the EU.

The only EU benefit i would not underestimate is free trade and free flow of services.
Gosc123456  
18 Jun 2015  #41

@Wjtk: the socalled "Polish" economy has been in the hands of western companies, since early 1990's.
Marsupial Activity: - / 888
Joined: 19 Oct 2014 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #42

Actually gosc the diversification happening in poland is one of the best around. Every 3 months it gets better and reaches further. Cant say the same for greece.
Harry Activity: 65 / 13,518
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #43

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS also broke the polish law. Specially the entire chapter 3 of the new immigration law published in 2013.

Really? Could you perhaps go into detail as to which elements of the Polish act of 12 December 2013 on Foreigners covers people who get into boats in Libya and head towards Italy before being picked up at sea? I'd love to know why Polish law applies in the Mediterranean sea.

And unlike you, I have seen the act in question, that's how I know there are in reality five chapter threes in the act. They cover "Invitations", "Visa revocation and cancellation", "Temporary residence permit for the purposes of highly qualified employment", "Residence permit for humanitarian reasons and permit for tolerated stay" and "National collection of registers, records and the list in the cases of foreigners". Do feel very welcome to tell us which of those overs people who get into boats in Libya and head towards Italy before being picked up at sea.

The reality is that international law requires that all persons rescued at sea to be brought to the nearest land, so if those immigrants could get their boat to somewhere near, for example, Sopot, they would need to be brought to Poland and could then promptly claim refugee status and would be entirely legal in Poland while their claim was assessed.
wino Activity: - / 31
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 ♀
 
18 Jun 2015  #44

"but there have also been millions of Poles who went to other countries for economic reasons: it's time for Poland to pay that debt off."

Poles went overseas to work, to build, to contribute with another countries. They had LEGAL status. They build entire nations or states as the entire south of Brazil, Michigan or Parts of Australia.

Poles in Australia, Brazil, United States etc were immigrants as much as Brits, Germans, French were. Should we really count who emmigrated more?
What debt?

To be on topic, the Polish gov is resisting the quota proposal, but I see this simply as an act to appeal to uneducated and conservative voters.

Ultranationalitic?Anti Eu? Also, I am highly educated and not very conservative and it still appeals to meXD. The fact that you connect lack of education with the opposition to multiculturalism(and that's is what this is about) is nothing short to demagoguery and an attempt at bullying. Isn't it better to have an argument about the someone's opinion instead of trying to insult people and label them as you see fit?

Polish could do without EU funds, why do Poland cry for funds?

Have you seen any crying?
Poland is the biggest of the "new" EU countries, so naturally it is also the biggest recipient.
You are forgetting that EU didn't accept new countires out of the goodness of their heart but because it is beneficial to them.

true but Poles don't want to admit it. Without EU, Poland would be like Moldavia.

Poland wasn't like Moldovia in 2004, so where is this claim coming from?
Poland would be where Czech Republic/Slovakia/Hungary and other coutries with similar history and geographical location were.

@Wjtk: the socalled "Polish" economy has been in the hands of western companies, since early 1990's.

You make a lot of claim without merit, care to back them up?

Now, going back to the topic of this thread. I would MAYBE(maybe-because countries like USA, that are largely responsible for the conflict/s should take responsibility for the outcome) be for accepting carefully selected refugees, but the people in the pictures are not them, they are economic migrants and therefore Italy or Greece should have done what Australia had done and turn the boats back. It would be beneficial for everybody and people would stop dying while trying to get to Europe.
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #45

Ultranationalitic?Anti Eu? Also, I am highly educated and not very conservative and it still appeals to meXD. The fact that you connect lack of education with the opposition to multiculturalism(and that's is what this is about) is nothing short to demagoguery and an attempt at bullying. Isn't it better to have an argument about the someone's opinion instead of trying to insult people and label them as you see fit?

Welcome to the forum "wino".
Since you are well educated then you probably know that you have committed several fallacies in the text that I quoted from you.
1. I never said it wouldn't appeal to educated people.
2. I never said it wouldn't appeal to people who aren't conservative.
3. I never associated opposition to multiculturalism with anything. In fact I never mentioned multiculturalism. And I most certainly never stated what you have stated in any form or way.

4. You appeal to spite.
5. You committed a red herring fallacy.
6. You committed ad hominem.
7. You appeal to motive.
... Should I carry on?
wino Activity: - / 31
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 ♀
 
18 Jun 2015  #46

Thank you, glad to be here!

Since you are well educated then you probably know that you have committed several fallacies in the text that I quoted from you.

lol, unfortunately, nowadays, well educated doesn't mean intelligent!so who is committing fallacy?XD, but thank you for assuming so.

1. I never said it wouldn't appeal to educated people.
2. I never said it wouldn't appeal to people who aren't conservative.

I see this simply as an act to appeal to uneducated and conservative voters.

You contradict yourself. If, as you claim, you didn't mean that it wouldn't appeal to educated and non conservative people than you should have

written sth along the lines of: To Some/(even)Most uneducated or conservative voters. But you didn't and that sentence was pretty straitforward.
If you say that it is a trick to get votes of uneducated and conservative people than how am I suppose to understand that??How is that not obvious? You must be pulling my leg.

3. I never associated opposition to multiculturalism with anything. In fact I never mentioned multiculturalism.

You didn't, I did. In the last paragraph of my post I explained that I don't see these people as refugees, but economic migrants. Also, I think that Poles are generally against the idea because they are afraid it would create a precedent and a start to multiculturalism as seen in the West.

4. You appeal to spite.
5. You committed a red herring fallacy.
6. You committed ad hominem.
7. You appeal to motive.

Hmm, what should I say? you started it?the pot calling the kettle black?
But seriously, You derailed from the argument in order to assume things about the people who don't agree with you. Now you deny it in ridiculous fashion and the only thing I did is point that out. I reacted because I hear these "arguments" more and more, especially when the racism and similar topics are discussed, and I find it loathing. I didn't assume your motive as bullying, I said it was bullying, whether intentional or not.

increasingly aggressive far right media these days.

lol, I somehow missed that gem. What increasingly aggresive far right media do you have in mind?I mean mainly Poland.
daniel.89  
18 Jun 2015  #47

"come from a small religious minority that has been persecuted by Muslims in particular for over 1000 year "

which minority out of curiosity ?
Vox Activity: - / 206
Joined: 4 Feb 2015 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #48

Can you

Really Doug? Really? Can you back it up with a token of your experiences and involvement in global economy and development issues?
Maybe you could give us a pointer or two to your articles published in the Journal of International and Global Economic studies? No?
How about your education? Putting aside your impressive diploma in bricklaying.
What do you have to show for it? A major in global economy, economic history or something that would indicate you actually know what you are talking about as opposed to you spewing (yet again) a worthless opinion on a matter you know very little about?

Are you familiar with Greenberg Center? NYU Stern? The Vienna Institute?

Stick to the topic please
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #49

Exactly. By the way, many people in Warsaw happily volunteer to help out with refugees. I am sure the same happens or will happen in all major Polish cities.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #50

Poland signed up for the EU, accepted the huge amounts of money and knew full well that it's a two-way thing. We're happy to have refugees just as we're happy to have the infrastructure funding. With rights come responsibilities.

Fairly tales, we didn't sign on accepting illegal immigrants or blind following of every single EU madness. Not to mention that we are part of the EU hence we are making its policy aswell as others. Our veto to obligatory illegals relocation is how we are doing it, like it or not. Not only because of our selfish interest but also because such policy is pure madness and road to nowhere. If we allow them into Europe now they will never stop coming. How many of tthem do you think EU can accomodate? 1-10-100 millions?

Btw. are you even a Pole to speak in our name? Not really, so control yourself.
Dougpol1 Activity: 19 / 1,596
Joined: 26 Jan 2014 ♂
 
18 Jun 2015  #51

Really Doug? Really? Can you back it up with a token of your experiences

I have had plenty of life experience as to how Poland would be a backwater without the billions of EU money - that's Euros, not paper money.

It was grim.

Do you live in Poland Vox? Do I detect a "bit" of American English in there :) That would indicate otherwise.
As to education, my background is no secret - search the annals of PF and ye shall be amply rewarded for your diligence.

In the meantime, as a Polish tax payer and employer of 23 years standing I shall continue to offer my opinion - as long as I have your grumpy acquiescence of course.....

Not only because of our selfish interest

Hehe. Of course not. Although I would in fact feel sorry for a Syrian refugee faced day to day with some of the drunks of middle Poland ghost towns.
wino Activity: - / 31
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 ♀
 
18 Jun 2015  #52

I have had plenty of life experience as to how Poland would be a backwater without the billions of EU money - that's Euros, not paper money.

You should be more specific, what you say doesn't really mean anything.
There are pros and cons of Poland being in EU, both for Poland and UE countries. The pros for Poland is of course the stream of Euros that help to build infrastructure, help schools etc, convenience of open boarders, introducing EU standards in many areas like environmental protection(altought we tend to have higher norms in this one). Cons would be a huge drain of qualified, young people, some ridiculous EU laws, difficult competition of Polish companies with their international, much wealthier counterparts (my friend who is an architect can attest how virtually impossible it can be, but good thing is that it is changing)

Pros for EU countries- young, well educated workers, that will easily assimilate by the second or third generation, who bring more money to the budgets of respective coutries than they take. Open Polish market, with little competition and possiblility to go further East. In 15-30 years when Poland becomes wealthier and is able to contibute more, there will be stronger EU, that is able to compete and be a significant partner to other big players like USA, China, possibly Brazil or if everything goes well some African countries.

Cons- bloody immigrants, that the supposedly tolerant Western societies seem very angered about, paying half for the highways in some "Eastern", cold country.

Soo, you shouldn't really limit Poland being in EU to taking money. That is very ill informed and narrow-minded.
OP Levi Activity: 15 / 583
Joined: 24 May 2011 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #53

"We're happy to have refugees"

1st: "We"? You are not even polish, Jon.

2nd: The polish government, that represent the polish population, FORTUNATELLY voted against receive the illegal immigrants.

3rd: Even if your delusion was true, Poland is a small country. With all difficulties, in just 5 months 160 000 illegal immigrants came from Africa. Open the doors and in one year this number will be 50 times bigger, which means the entire population of Poland (remember that just Pakistan have almost the entire Population of European Union)
jon357 Activity: 53 / 10,847
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #54

You know nothing at sll about my citizenship or roots, so better not to put your foot in your mouth further. These people that you're grumbling about aren't 'illegal immigrants' at all. And yes, they will be coming to PL.

Managed to get a visa yet?
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #55

These people that you're grumbling about aren't 'illegal immigrants' at all.

Yes they are, at least most of them, ,,refugees" is just pretty politicaly correct term. They pay heavy money to smugglers to get into Europe.

And yes, they will be coming to PL.

Lets think about it:
- Poles are against. Just see any pool about this subject,
- current governmant is against it,
- every other significant political party is against it
- election are coming and ,,yes" for illegals means political death,
- as i said at page 1 we have legal tools to prevent EU from forcing us to take illegals,
- incoming new governmant will be more or less Eurosceptic and it would never agree on EU dictating us that we should take illegals - whatever the cost. We also have many allies on this front including big EU states like UK or Spain.

Of course you can keep talking about illegals coming here but it will remain in sphere of your dreams.You can also rumble about ,,Poland will do as its told" but this would mean you have poor perception of reality if you think such thing is possible.

However:
- we are willing to participate in military mission against smugglers. There you can find our support.
- we can make some exceptions like for 60 Christian families from Syria, but if we make them this will be on our terms
jon357 Activity: 53 / 10,847
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #56

The reality is so different. The first group are arriving soon.
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #57

O rly? I'm sure you are able to provide source of this claim.
wino Activity: - / 31
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 ♀
 
19 Jun 2015  #58

I don't understand why Poland should take economic migrants. How does that make any sense?

And yes, they will be coming to PL.

No. Not before the elections as it would be a political suicide, and probably not after depending on who wins the elections.
Gosc123456  
19 Jun 2015  #59

@Wino: you don't understand :) but it is clear 1. Poland has joined the EU (without habing the knife Under the throat) and thus is part of the whole 2. Poland is no.1 EU funds receipient and 3. EU is not a supermarket, members take the whole deal or they .... get the he.. out (= no more money for Poland)

and also 4. "why should other countries accept Polish economic migrants?"

If Poland want to be on their own, let them be like North Korea and we'll see .... ;)
wjtk Activity: - / 53
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 ♂
 
19 Jun 2015  #60

If i had to choose i'd say they can keep their money and their illegals.

Polish economy is already paying heavy price for participing in the EU, we don't have to follow every stupid EU idea that appears - get it to your head.

As far as i know problems with the illegal isn't exaclty problem of whole EU, but its problem two members: Greece and Italy. It may suprise you but world isn't exactly circling around Greece and Italy. You are also not in position to blackmail us, whatever are your dreams noone will cut EU funds just because we don't want to take illegals.

We also do not feel obligated to help you, just don't. Greece and Italy ignore Poland when it comes to EU-Russia relations, so we are ignoring you know. We also did not participate in war against Libya which is main reason of current mess with illegals - it was started by USA, France and Italy.

START PROTECTING YOUR OWN BORDERS.




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Poland under pressure of EU to accept more asylum seeking refugees
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