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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
6 Dec 2015 #181
It's a legal demonstration

A handful of frustrated losers are free to protest until they burst a blood vesseł, split a gut or sh*t in their pants for all the good it will do!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
6 Dec 2015 #182
It is a constitutionally protected right for the Polish news media to report on the protests, and they have a corresponding responsibility to report that many of the protesters are foreigners.

The media have reported it before (foreigners often turn up for the 11th November marches) and no-one really cares very much. It's often mentioned in passing and foreigners are an accepted part of demonstrations in Poland. Perhaps you should start with learning about Poland before making yet more strange statements that aren't based on reality?

I have seen Belorussians protesting Lukashenko and their government in Warsaw.

There have been Hungarians and Italians here protesting alongside Poles against the PO/PSL majority in the Sejm, the PO President and PO majority in the Senate. There have also been other nationalities protesting against far-right movements here. As I said above, it's nothing particularly unusual in Poland and no-one cares that much. But yes, I'll make sure to bring my EU flag to the protest.

By the way, they are Belarusians. Again, your unfamiliarity with Europe beyond Wikipedia shows, because the very name refers to (in Polish) 'Ruś Biała', which is something different to Russia. Calling them Belorussians is frankly offensive.

You started it, you and your pal Harry, incessantly going about how much you are contributing to Poland and what a great assets you are and so on and so forth until you ask for specifics.

What are you wittering on about? I rarely talk about what I've done for Poland and I don't even like bringing it up in public. For me, it should be seen and not heard. All I know is that it made a difference to some people's lives.

Unless you are counting as a contribution a fact that you are siding with some sideline left extremist and nutters in Poland

I love the way that you think that anything that isn't PiS is "left extremist". You clearly haven't been in Poland for a long, long time.

Yes but if you are taking part in the anti-government demonstration and associating with extremists that can constitute one of those rare circumstances.

Not really. I have nothing to do with extremists on either side, and I'm not a member of any political grouping.

Some of those foreign participants might have their residency papers revoked being considered a potential threat to national security.

You're living in dreamland Ironside. Perhaps it works like that in your head, but PiS have no interest in random people attending a protest.
Borsukrates
7 Dec 2015 #183
News - formally, announcements of the Constitutional Court go into effect the moment they're printed in Dziennik Ustaw (Journal of Laws). But it's the government who decides about putting Constitutional Court's ruling in Dziennik Ustaw. The government is PiS. There's unofficial information that printing of the ruling has been put on hold.

If this persists, Duda is finished as a lawyer and academic teacher. He will have to go all-in, do everything exactly the way Kaczyński says.

This is what people are talking about when they say: "Pislam". In islamic states government, religion and judges are all the same. PiS is already taking over courts, and it's in bed with the Church too. High ranking priests call for parliament to respect "natural law", which they say is the law given by god. Poland is to become a Pislamic State, PISIS.
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #184
German state TV: media in Poland are persecuted. Lis involved. Priceless :))))))))))))

wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1342,title,Tomasz-Lis-w-niemieckiej-telewizji-ARD-o-przesladowaniu-dziennikarzy-w-Polsce,wid,18027249,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=116131
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
7 Dec 2015 #185
If this persists, Duda is finished as a lawyer and academic teacher.

Having a politician with a trust rating in the high 30's completely under the thumb of one with a trust ranking in the low 20's is not a recipe for success.

He'll always have a place at the perpetually angry table of those who are incapable of being happy about anything going on in Poland (like Polonius, Ironside etc) but he's rapidly working himself out of the mainstream.

PiS is already taking over courts, and it's in bed with the Church too

the thing is that most Poles are not very religious (common stereotypes to the contrary). The church has lost a huge amount of support for its political actions in recent years.

I'm assuming that soon PiS will start working its destructive magic on higher education (in which case Poland is finished as a prospective first world country).
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #186
most Poles are not very religious

True. I'm totally not religious.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
7 Dec 2015 #187
I'm assuming that soon PiS will start working its destructive magic on higher education (in which case Poland is finished as a prospective first world country).

This is actually where Gowin might be able to save PiS a little. He's already talking about reforming the system so that the best things are focused on, while also working to end the ridiculous situation of having multiple departments in Poland for very niche things, like Finnish philology. He's also made it clear that he doesn't see any room for ideology in his Ministry and that the most important thing is to do the right thing - so I have some hope there.

Of course, knowing Gowin, he'll fall out with Kaczyński over it and PiS will be left without their majority.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
7 Dec 2015 #188
incapable of being happy about anything going on in Poland

Au contraire, many things make decent people happy like the PiS election victory, the withdrawal of PO legislative blunders, World Youth Day in Kraków, the scrapping of that hideous pervert rainbow, Gienieczko's Amazon adventure, high marks for Polish EFL speakers, sport (Radwańska, Lewy world's 4th best footballer), Poland this year's 7th best tourist destination, etc., etc.
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #189
Having a politician with a trust rating in the high 30's completely under the thumb of one with a trust ranking in the low 20's is not a recipe for success.

What you apparently don't understand is that even many of their voters (including myself) don't really "like" them, sometimes don't even trust them. These are not guys to "like". These are guys we got hired to do the dirty job that someone has to do.

The major milestones of PO losing power were:
1. Tusk getting that childish job in Belgium.
2. Refugee madness.
3. Reactions of "European press/EUnuchs and all" to what PiS was saying on the refugee madness and generally on them leading in the polls.

Then people saw what for "good relations with Germany" were needed. So the sock puppet can get early retirement he denied to people here, getting 50 times more money, paid from our taxes. The refugee thing is totally out of touch with common sense, so people saw what the whole EU and Mutter Merkel are worth. And Tusk/Kopacz supporting that total nonsense basically shot themselves in the foot. Jaro/PiS came up with common sense approach to the whole mess + some badly needed ideas like taxing foreign banks/retail chains and supporting domestic companies instead. So then came furious attack of "European media", the whole bullshyts about "far-right", "xenophobes", "fascists" etc. Gerries got used so much to Poland being their vassal state that they don't event try to hide it. People saw that all, that's why they got rid of PO and elected PiS, not because they like them, not because they are so religious and so on.

Show me any better party and I will vote for them next time. As for now we have traitorious PO, criminal PSL, cartoonish Palikot, Kukiz that can't form any clear agenda and "nowoczesna" crap set up by foreign lobbysts. Once there is some good alternative, PiS will quickly lose at least 1/3 of their support but there's nothing of that sort for now and I doubt It will emerge anytime soon. Especially that after previous 3 points came...

4. Totally furious attack on just elected gov by Gerries, EUnuchs, domestic sidelocks and all that mess. They call for isolating Poland, claim that we are going back to our "fascist traditions" and so on. The scale and speed of these hysterical attacks makes effect, but different than they expect. We got elected what we decided to elect, perhaps they are shyt but that's our God given right to elect shytty politicians and when you hear all the noise, It almost like Luftwaffe is going to bomb us "to defend democracy and fight xenophobia", Christ on the bike, we've just had elections, that is democracy and when we decide to get rid of them, they will be quickly gone. When WE decide to do that, not some Krauts, who are thinking that they run things here. All this nonsense will only consolidate support for PiS. I hate PO but I can't even Imagine supporting PiS calling Putin for help to remove them from office. That's the same feeling many non-PiS supporters are getting now. The whole "protests" are just a bunch of traitors from foreign financed "NGOs" + kids of PO politicians and such crap. Good luck with that.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
7 Dec 2015 #190
So, we now see that Duda really has shown himself to be Kaczyński's puppet and not the "President of all Poles" as he claimed.

Having a politician with a trust rating in the high 30's completely under the thumb of one with a trust ranking in the low 20's is not a recipe for success.

Indeed. Duda might even manage to break Lech's low approval rating record.

However, what gets me is that PiS have gone back to their old childish ways. By refusing to publish the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal, they're deliberately creating conflicts - and voters aren't stupid. Duda's approval ratings have gone down considerably in the space of a month, and over half of Poles believe that Duda does what he's told by Kaczyński. What a mess.

Still, the good thing is that people like Greggy (and PiS in general) believe that the protests aren't worth worrying about. That's good, because it gives us more time to organise ourselves properly.
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #191
and voters aren't stupid

Quite a few are. But not majority indeed.

protests aren't worth worrying about

They are great, the more of that hysterical crap the better.
Harry
7 Dec 2015 #192
the thing is that most Poles are not very religious (common stereotypes to the contrary).

The percentage of practising Catholics in Poland (as opposed to the cafeteria Catholics Polo so often sneers at even though he himself didn't know what is required of a Catholic by the RCC) is now in the high teens. Strangely enough, that's roughly the same percentage as that of Polish voters who voted PIS. And it's also roughly the same as the percentage of Polish adults who used to be in the Communist party.

By refusing to publish the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal, they're deliberately creating conflicts - and voters aren't stupid.

They aren't seriously going to try that one, are they?!
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
7 Dec 2015 #193
The major milestones of PO losing power were:

I broadly agree, Merkel's Folly and subsequent clumsy efforts to force other countries to help her save face at home made her previously okay relationship with PO leaders absolutely toxic.

PO's campaigns (presidential and parliamentary) were sluggish and not very .... good. They did a horrible job of running on their accomplishments (no love for almost entirely avoiding the economic crisis still paralysing half the continent? No love for major infrastructural improvements?)

Established parties sometimes don't mind a few years out of power as a way to clean house and refocus on their message and I sort of think that's what was going on this year (especially after Bronisław "I will concentrate deeply and try to contact the living" Komorowski's boring effort). The question is is PO established enough to be able to afford the downtime or will younger hungrier parties (like Nowoczesna) take their place (I wouldn't mind).

My preference would be for a moderate to conservative fiscal policy (lotsa luck with socialists like PiS) and a moderately liberal social policy (while not trying to push Poles in directions they don't want to go socially).

The problem is that PiS is no better than PO in terms of what most voters care about (roughly, in order 1. job creation, 2. job creation, 3. job creation). They haven't lifted one finger to do anything that will increase employment so far (nor do I expect them to). Some voters had hoped that by putting younger faces forward PiS was changing but no such luck. I was talking with one younger person who now bitterly regrets voting for PiS (he said he was voting more against PO than for PiS and had hoped D/S wouldn't be completely dominated by JK).

They've already thrown the Frankowicze under the bus and are backtracking with the ridiculous 500 zl per baby pledge.

PiS can still turn this around but unless they double down on job creation (which means adopting policies that will alienate many of their core supporters) then this term in office won't be any more successful than the last.

I'll add: "Deeper European intergration" is a loser at the polls in almost every EU country now. But idiots like Merkel and the out-of-touch EU elite don't realize this. I don't know anyone who wants Poland to leave the EU (yet) but if they don't back off and give member states more room they're going to wreck it (and if they don't back off then wrecking it is probably the best option).
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #194
The percentage of practising Catholics in Poland

Is irrelevant. I'm sure at least half of PiS MEPs are not truly practicing. You guys make up some nonsense, like about "Catholic Taliban" etc. and then believe in your own lies. That majority of Poles are not going to church each and every week doesn't mean they are pro-lefty "progressive" bullshyts or that they can't vote right wing parties.
Harry
7 Dec 2015 #195
the ridiculous 500 zl per baby pledge.

Aren't they supposed to announce their complete program for that on the first of April?

PiS can still turn this around but unless they double down on job creation (which means adopting policies that will alienate many of their core supporters)

Let's face facts, the only jobs PIS are interested in are the jobs in state-owned enterprises and the civil service they're currently busy stuffing their loyal Party henchmen into.
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #196
I'll add: "Deeper European intergration" is a loser at the polls in almost every EU country now.

But PO got orders from their masters so they had to ride on that dead horse and commit suicide. Tusk is a German agent of influence, what was regarded as a conspiracy theory several years ago, is clear now for 2/3 of people.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
7 Dec 2015 #197
Tusk is a German agent of influence, what was regarded as a conspiracy theory several years ago, is clear now for 2/3 of people.

It's not a conspiracy, it's an _agenda_ that the economic and political elite have that is in direct conflict with the wishes of the majority of every EU country.

Now that opposition to the agenda is becoming mainstream it will be interesting to see if they back off or double down and just how repressive they'll get in pursuit of their aims (roughly: no restrictions on capital liquidity).
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #198
So far they are scaling up from "repeat the referendum until the results are "correct" " to "try to remove democratically elected government that we don't like".
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
7 Dec 2015 #199
ridiculous 500 zl per baby pledge.

Got some miraculous cure for the demographic crisis? By all means do let us know. If the 500 zł thing is ridiculous, then please us what will do the trick.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
7 Dec 2015 #200
So far they are scaling up from "repeat the referendum until the results are "correct" " to "try to remove democratically elected government that we don't like".

It will be interesting to see what comes next and how people react to it. I would say election fraud but that's already probably happened.

Interestingly the first stage of the Houellebecq book "Submission" just happened in real life. If the book, ultimately power is given to an Islamic leader by the traditional right and left working together to keep a nationalist out of power.

I wonder what will be done to keep Le Pen out of an office that the elite clearly don't want her in.

The one thing I tend to agree with PiS about is the need to slow down the whole EU thing (though I'm not as anti-EU as they are). It would be nice to keep open borders and free movement of labor and not much else (maybe a limited federal structure for things like disaster relief).

If the 500 zł thing is ridiculous, then please us what will do the trick.

It's not the worst idea in the world, but the promises were dumb, trying to make it into an entitlement program.

Such a program would have to be means-tested, possibly linked to tax returns.

The real clue is supporting working (married) mothers. Lots of young Polish women want to get married and have kids but they know that's death to their job prospects and Poland remains a country where generally two-wage-earners are necessary to keep a household going. The idea of being a stay at home housewife has never had much appeal in Poland as far as I can tell so trying to promote that won't work.

Mandating employers give maternal leave and pay just makes employers not want to hire women.

The iron law of the workplace is that the more restrictions are placed on employment (including attempts to give people job security) the less employment there will be.

No one has beat that law yet.
G (undercover)
7 Dec 2015 #201
It will be interesting to see what comes next and how people react to it.

For now there's "pressure" via foreign media, foreign financed NGOs etc. Next I guess they will come up with some sort of sanctions.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
7 Dec 2015 #202
For now there's "pressure" via foreign media, foreign financed NGOs etc.

Define "foreign"

This is primarily a class issue not a national one. There is a ruling elite class that has no allegiance to any country (no matter where they happen to be located at any given time). They're in charge of most of the media and it's interesting how little that is working.

At present, it's essentially a low level conflict between those who want to do away with the nation state (most of the elite) and those who want to keep it (most everyone else who's aware of the issue).
Harry
7 Dec 2015 #203
Mandating employers give maternal leave and pay just makes employers not want to hire women.

It's lucky that PIS don't understand that; if they did, they'd probably try to solve the demographic problem by changing the constitution to give five years of paid maternity leave (all paid by her employer) so that companies wouldn't hire women and thus women would have nothing to do[*] other than to stay at home, pregnant, barefoot and in the kitchen.

[i]* Those of us who can think our way out of a paper-bag might dare to venture that Polish women who couldn't get a job here would simply move to another EU country, but it's rather unsporting to expect a PISite to be able to think that well - if they could think, they wouldn't support PIS!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
7 Dec 2015 #204
stay at home housewife has never had much appeal

But mainly because few husbands can single-handedly support a family. If he could, many women who opt for the supremely important job of raising children and running a well-organised household. And this despite the ubiquitous feminist propaganda which has tried to discredit and deride housewives, homemakers and stay-at-home mums.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
7 Dec 2015 #205
If he could, many women who opt for the supremely important job of raising children and running a well-organised household

You really don't understand Poland at ground level, do you? Most women want to work even if their husbands could make enough to support them.

"Housewife" is almost an insult (and it has nothing to do with communism or modernity). It's just the way it is.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
7 Dec 2015 #206
Got some miraculous cure for the demographic crisis? By all means do let us know. If the 500 zł thing is ridiculous, then please us what will do the trick.

Two things : a public nursery place for every child from 3-6 i(and even better, from 1-6) and 6000zł tax credits for every child. But tax credits in the sense of "extra tax free amount" as opposed to physical cash. Both measures would heavily encourage people into having children, as they would know that child care is provided and that they'll receive up to 6000zł extra cash a year in their pocket in exchange for their hard work. I would also introduce the concept of nurseries being open from 6am to 10pm in order to cater for the demands of modern life.

Both of these would do wonders for the demographics, as people would know that their child care is covered and that their hard work would also be rewarded.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,848
7 Dec 2015 #207
And this despite the ubiquitous feminist propaganda which has tried to discredit and deride housewives, homemakers and stay-at-home mums.

Polly, there is a reason why so many women in the 1950s were on valium, you know. Not wishing to 'deride' any woman who chooses this. But then as you point out yourself, this kind of set up is no longer financially viable anyway.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
7 Dec 2015 #208
no longer financially viable

In Poland. This is a relic of low communist-era wages which forced both spouses to work just to make ends meet. In other countries such as the USA two pay packets make for a poshier lifestyle but one often suffices for a modest but rewarding living. There are many downsides to latch-key kids and youngsters raised by infant schools, after-school clubs, nannies, CD-ROMS with little contact with parents.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,848
7 Dec 2015 #209
There are many downsides to latch-key kids and youngsters raised by infant schools, after-school clubs, nannies, CD-ROMS with little contact with parents.

yes well personally I think you are living in a dreamworld. It is certainly not possible in the UK, for example.
Besides I think childcare is probably better than being trapped in a house with a mother on the edge of insanity.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
7 Dec 2015 #210
I rarely talk about what I've done for Poland and I don't even like bringing it up in public

Fair enough but on the other hand you imply that you are doing something you are not talk about, I call that rubbish.

I love the way that you think that anything that isn't PiS is "left extremist".

No, I think that anyone connected with this nutter you posted link to is indeed deluded left extremist and should be sent to the North Korea.

Not really.

Is that because you are not going after all or is that what you hope for?

Perhaps it works like that in your head, but PiS have no interest in random people attending a protest.

Hmm, perhaps not but than on the other hand .....:D

He'll always have a place at the perpetually angry table of those who are incapable of being happy about anything going on in Poland (like Polonius, Ironside etc) but he's rapidly working himself out of the mainstream.

Need I remind you that contrary to what you might believe majority people in Poland are not happy with what has been going on for the last decade and they expressed they preferences in the recent election voting for antiestablishment parties.

However, what gets me is that PiS have gone back to their old childish ways.

Rather PO is going bonkers in their hysterical and total denial of the fact that just have lost an election, they behave like a petulant child stumping their feet in an impotent rage. No more public money for that herd of swine !

The percentage of practising Catholics in Poland

Makes not difference and doesn't make them atheists or supporters of your progressivism crap. I'm not practicing too - boo!

Most women want to work even if their husbands could make enough to support them.

Rubbish


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