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Poland to sign FATCA, USA will get information about bank accounts


Sparks11 - | 335
1 Jan 2016 #31
A real thing about FATCA, besides the other horrible things mentioned, is that Americans can no longer open investment accounts to invest in Polish companies. I tried at several banks, Mbank, Deutsche, Millenium, all said the same...NO. They said if I were of any other nation, I could, but FATCA makes tax reporting too much of a headache for them.
Cichociemni
2 Jan 2016 #32
With a Polish passport, investing in Polish companies shouldn't be a problem. The problem is that the U.S. government attempts to tax the income of its expatriate citizens' foreign incomes. (I believe that Eritrea is the only other country to do this to its citizens.) Some Americans left because they didn't want to pay taxes to support wars that they oppose, and if they make less than something like $90,000 they can legally do so. Imagine if the Nazis had tried to tax Marlena Dietrich's foreign income? If a government can't legally tax someone's income, then why are they entitled to personal financial information?

Poland and the U.S. signed a new tax treaty which permits sharing financial information:
treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/Treaty-Poland-2-13-2013.pdf
Largely, the treaty is based on residency, but someone could be resident in both nations during the year, in which case the issue is nationality/citizenship. Even then, "if he is a national of both States or of neither of them, the competent authorities

of the Contracting States shall endeavor to settle the question by mutual agreement." The problem occurs if the Polish government is giving the personal financial information of a Polish citizen it violates constitutional privacy issues. I don't know how a treaty can violate individual privacy rights, but it did. Personal rights disappear when governments want to collect money, lawfully or unlawfully.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
2 Jan 2016 #33
The problem occurs if the Polish government is giving the personal financial information of a Polish citizen it violates constitutional privacy issues.

Could you outline which article of the Polish constitution prohibits the Polish government from sharing financial information?

I don't know how a treaty can violate individual privacy rights, but it did.

Which Polish constitutional right does it break?

Anyway, what's the problem? If you don't like what the Americans are doing, renounce American citizenship and the problem is solved.
Cichociemni
2 Jan 2016 #34
Ask prof. Lipowicz. She is the expert.

"Prawo do prywatności obejmuje też ochronę tajemnicy danych o sytuacji majątkowej"

forsal.pl/artykuly/748635,polskie-konta-trafia-pod-lupe-usa.html
Crow 149 | 9,405
2 Jan 2016 #35
FATCA isn`t problem (i mean, its only one thing among many). My country already signed it in order to balance between powers.
weeg
2 Jan 2016 #36
Anyway, what's the problem? If you don't like what the Americans are doing, renounce American citizenship and the problem is solved.

Agreed, the solution is obvious.
Sparks11 - | 335
2 Jan 2016 #37
The problem isn't quite solved. The question on most forms to open a new bank account is something like "have you worked in the U.S. in the past seven years? or are you an American citizen?" The question for the investment account was "do you have or have you EVER had U.S. citizenship?" the Yankee swine are digging deep to prop up their doomed economy.
pweeg
2 Jan 2016 #38
They, rightly or wrongly, consider your ass as their own if you have profited from working in the USA.

"Freedom" cuts both ways.
Sparks11 - | 335
2 Jan 2016 #39
I'm only an American citizen but have been considering giving it up if I ever get my Polish citizenship and Poland can keep itself in the EU. The overreach of the Fed is getting a bit out of control.
weeg
2 Jan 2016 #40
Don't give US citizenship for Polish, you have no idea where it maybe going. Would you swap the US for Putins Russia or communist era Poland?
Sparks11 - | 335
2 Jan 2016 #41
That's why I say it would have to stay in the Euro. Also, become a bit more stable politically.
R.U.R.
2 Jan 2016 #42
pweeg : swap the US for Putins Russia or communist era Poland?

Did you mean "swap Cultural Marxism in the US (West) for Putins Russia or communist era Poland? You have no idea where it (Cultural Marxism) maybe going.
weeg
2 Jan 2016 #43
Sorry, for all America's faults its is not any kind of Marxist or fascist for that matter. Unlike Russia.
Crow 149 | 9,405
2 Jan 2016 #44
FATCA is minimum what can be done. After all, we are all happy to follow demands of USA government. Oh, USA government is famous. Such care by a government for its citizens is absolutely unknown for us eastern Europeans. Our governments works first for USA government and by that for USA citizens and just then for us. Well, some would maybe say that our governments first works for USA magnates and some others but, i say its irrelevant. Hierarchy is anyway well known. For our governments we are last worry.
Cichociemni
3 Jan 2016 #45
The question for the investment account was "do you have or have you EVER had U.S. citizenship?"

I don't know how they are permitted to even ask this question. Under Polish law, if one is born a dual citizen, the Polish government only considers that person is a Polish citizen. Therefore, simply asking this question is discriminatory against a Polish citizen. At some point the Polish government has to tell the U.S. to get stuffed. A simple rule that U.S. income is taxed in the U.S. and Polish income is taxed in Poland is easy enough to enforce.

I'm only an American citizen but have been considering giving it up if I ever get my Polish citizenship and Poland can keep itself in the EU.

Record numbers of U.S. citizens are renouncing their citizenship due to policies which promote discrimination against American citizens:
forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/05/08/new-un-american-record-renouncing-u-s-citizenship/
Expats want foreign bank accounts which get denied due to FATCA. They don't want to worry about getting fined or criminally charged for failing to file FBAR forms. They don't want to worry about being fined for failing to disclose their foreign spouses' income. (Yes, they do expect a U.S. citizen to know and accurately report property and income from a spouse who is not a U.S. citizen or even a resident.) It is all a bit much. They have even jacked up the fee to renounce U.S. citizenship, which is now $2350. Many people want out. Angela Merkel doesn't need to bring in all of those Middle Easterners if she needs more people.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
3 Jan 2016 #46
A simple rule that U.S. income is taxed in the U.S. and Polish income is taxed in Poland is easy enough to enforce.

Could you perhaps provide some answers to my questions first?

There is no discrimination here. The question - "Are you an American citizen?" is being asked by a private company. The law which treats Polish citizens as only being Polish in Poland refers to the State institutions, not private businesses.

As for your "simple rule" - sure, easy enough to enforce. Polish banks then find themselves locked out of the American financial system, which they absolutely do not want. It's much easier to simply go along with FACTA.

Sure, this law is ridiculous for Americans, but they get what they vote for.

Having said that, has the IRS ever actually succeeded in punishing an American citizen abroad for tax issues?
Cichociemni
3 Jan 2016 #47
There is no discrimination here.

Polish citizens who want to invest in Poland are being denied that opportunity due to discrimination. The government needs to end that policy. At some point, Europe needs to grow a pair and stand up to U.S. bullying. They can retaliate against U.S. banks and companies. So far they have chosen not to do so.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
3 Jan 2016 #48
Polish citizens who want to invest in Poland are being denied that opportunity due to discrimination.

Not really. Polish banks prefer being able to stay within the American banking system. It's not discrimination, it's a wise business choice.

The government needs to end that policy.

Polish governments since 1989 (and even before) have not seen any particularly good reason to not cooperate with the United States. This law hurts Americans, not Poles.

At some point, Europe needs to grow a pair and stand up to U.S. bullying.

Where's the bullying? And why would Europe start a trade war with the United States over something that only affects American citizens?

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to reference which article of the Polish constitution is being broken.
Cichociemni
3 Jan 2016 #49
Sparks11=The question for the investment account was "do you have or have you EVER had U.S. citizenship?"

I wonder what would happen if a dual Polish-American answered that question "no", since according to Polish law, those Polish citizens born in the U.S. are considered to be only Polish citizens. If the bank had a problem and tried to sue, the courts should return a verdict against the bank, since only Polish citizenship is recognized in Poland. Anything else would be clearly discrimination.
TheOther 5 | 3,682
3 Jan 2016 #50
since according to Polish law, those Polish citizens born in the U.S. are considered to be only Polish citizens

The IRS couldn't care less about Polish law.
Cichociemni
3 Jan 2016 #51
The issue is how Polish courts address the issue, which should be according to Polish law unless Poland has again become someone's puppet state.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
3 Jan 2016 #52
I wonder what would happen if a dual Polish-American answered that question "no", since according to Polish law, those Polish citizens born in the U.S. are considered to be only Polish citizens.

The bank would be entitled to recover any losses as a result of the fraudulent declaration.

If the bank had a problem and tried to sue, the courts should return a verdict against the bank, since only Polish citizenship is recognized in Poland.

It doesn't work like that. The "recognition" comes from the fact that you must identify yourself as Polish to the Polish authorities should they wish you to confirm your identity. The question asks clearly if you're an American citizen - and financial fraud is serious here.

Anything else would be clearly discrimination.

Good luck arguing that one when you're hauled up for fraud in front of the Polish courts.

The issue is how Polish courts address the issue, which should be according to Polish law unless Poland has again become someone's puppet state.

Polish law requires you to follow the requirements of FACTA irrespective of being a Polish citizen or not.

Again, if our hypothetical Polonia investor wants to invest without the Americans finding out, renouncing American citizenship is how it's done.
TheOther 5 | 3,682
3 Jan 2016 #53
Whether you are an American citizen, a legal permanent resident or a foreigner on a temporary work via - your worldwide income (with exceptions) is taxable in the USA. If you try to work against the IRS and they find out, you will pay big time. Same goes for foreign banks. If they don't cooperate, they are simply barred from doing business in the US. Show me one international bank that can afford to lose the American market.
Cichociemni
3 Jan 2016 #54
And how many American banks can afford to lose the European market? Europe needs to stand up for itself. Presently the only European leader asserting any independence of the U.S. banking system is Vladimir Putin. He is attempting, along with the Chinese, to create a rival system for international bank transfers to avoid the American monopoly. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
R.U.R.
3 Jan 2016 #55
weeg : Sorry, for all America's faults its is not any kind of Marxist or fascist for that matter. Unlike Russia.

All right, all right do not worry, we all know that the USA have abolished their racist system as early as in the 1960th, even the relics of it haven't been preserved. And now the counry proudly and deservedly outshines other countries.

Unlike you, many in the US are sure that some (cultural) kind of Marxism there exists in the country (BY THE WAY THE QUERY "cultural Marxism in the usa" RETURNS 12 100 000 RESULTS)
Sparks11 - | 335
3 Jan 2016 #56
I asked the guy at Deutsche bank "What if I had Polish (or some other) citizenship and just didn't mention that I'm also American?" He said that from the bank's standpoint I could open it but kind of got uncomfortable and made a noticeable effort to end the conversation as I kept asking my "what if" questions. I gather that if you have dual citizenship you could invest but if Uncle Sam finds out, you may be in for navigating a rather uncharted sea of sh**
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
3 Jan 2016 #57
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I think the Poles prefer to do business with the predictable Americans (who merely want to extract every last dime out of their own people) than to do business with Putin.
Cichociemni
3 Jan 2016 #58
I asked the guy at Deutsche bank "What if I had Polish (or some other) citizenship and just didn't mention that I'm also American?"

I am going to have this conversation with my Polish lawyer next time we meet for dinner. Since the law is based on the Napoleonic Code concept and lacks the flexibility of the common law to adapt to unforeseen cases, it appears to me that having Polish citizenship means the government, agencies and courts only recognize that person as a Polish citizen. It may be that the banks can discriminate against someone who had U.S. citizenship, but renounced it for say Swiss citizenship, or someone who is a dual U.S./British or French citizen. However, I don't think they can discriminate against someone born abroad with dual Polish and American citizenship. It may be that the Polish and U.S. government are sharing all financial information anyhow, but denying a Polish citizen the right to open an investment account in Poland is plainly discrimination, (Regardless of what the resident troll who is afraid of losing his job thinks).

Just to note that as long as ALL of the FBAR paperwork gets filed with the Dept. of the Treasury, everything is fine, but I am sure that the FACTA stuff could be a hassle for the bank which the U.S. would attempt to hold liable under U.S. law even though it is a Polish company doing business in Poland, etc.
TheOther 5 | 3,682
3 Jan 2016 #59
it appears to me that having Polish citizenship means the government, agencies and courts only recognize that person as a Polish citizen

Maybe in Poland, but not in the US. If you are working in the US, you'll have to provide information about foreign bank accounts (and similar assets) to the IRS. Once they have this information, they will press the foreign bank into sending you a release form which then allows the bank to send your personal information to the IRS. That way they check whether you've told the truth when you filed your taxes - and if not, it will be going to bite you big time. Should the foreign bank refuse to provide that information, it will lose access to the American market. That's how it's supposed to work in theory.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Jan 2016 #60
sharing with the US

You'd prefer to share with the Russian Federation or ISIS?


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