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Shops in Poland to be closed on Sunday?


delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
31 May 2013 #151
Not more important simply because all cannot benefit doesn't mean that none can

In other words, there is no good reason.
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #152
Do forgive me for ignoring your off-topic insults and lies

Harry you haven't got a leg to stand on defending your sectarian comment.

With regard to the proposed change in Sunday trading I believe that a lot of people will benefit and like any change only time will tell who is correct. Having guaranteed time off allows one to plan non work related activities which leads to a better quality of life. Of course common sense has to be applied, taking an extreme literal interpretation of the proposed changes ignores common sense.

In other words, there is no good reason.

That doesn't follow from what I said, the conclusion is wrong, you asked a loaded question I side stepped the question, it's very common in debate to do that.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
31 May 2013 #153
Can you tell us why only supermarket workers should benefit from getting a better quality of life? Common sense, as you interpret it, is that anyone working in a non-critical profession should have the day off. Yet they don't, and no-one cares about them.

You still haven't provided a reason why people should have to lose wages, despite it being common knowledge in Poland that people actually like working on Sundays.
Harry
31 May 2013 #154
Harry you haven't got a leg to stand on defending your sectarian comment.

Well, other than what it says in the bible. BTW, if you want to know what sectarianism looks like, just stroll to the nearest mirror: in it you will see a distinctly unpleasant racist sectarian.

With regard to the proposed change in Sunday trading I believe that a lot of people will benefit

You are welcome to your beliefs. However, the fact is that a lot of people will lose their jobs (as the amount of time when labour required will go down by 14%), a lot of people will lose money (as they will not be able to work on Sundays and will not receive the extra pay paid on Sundays) and a lot of people will be inconvenienced. Those are the simple facts.

Having guaranteed time off allows one to plan non work related activities

And having to do whatever shopping one needs to do on one particular day restricts what other things one can plan to do, as one has to plan one's life around the religious diktats of zealots.

you asked a loaded question I side stepped the question, it's very common in debate to do that.

So you refused to answer a question because we all know what the answer is and the answer is very inconvenient to those who want to force their views onto others.
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #155
Can you tell us why only supermarket workers should benefit from getting a better quality of life?

As explained Delph it's easy to sidestep such loaded questions, but here is one. Because all cannot benefit from such changes why should none?

Yes common sense, as I understand it means there is flexibility, not an all or nothing approach.

Edit

BTW, if you want to know what sectarianism looks like, just stroll to the nearest mirror: in it you will see a distinctly unpleasant racist sectarian.

Lordy Harry what an outburst, I'm sure you will offer any pain you feel up

You are welcome to your beliefs.

Indeed I am and all I'm doing posting my opinion on the topic not making sectarian remarks.

religious diktats of zealots.

Its not all about religion Harry as much as you would like to insult Catholics

So you refused to answer a question because we all know what the answer is and the answer is very inconvenient to those who want to force their views onto others.

Again Harry its not all about Religion you don't seem to understand how debate works.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
31 May 2013 #156
If you have lived in India, then you must have turned a blind eye to the persecution of Christians.

I lived in India a long time ago, so no, I didn't have to turn a blind eye to anything. Your info comes from 2012, and I know that radical Hinduism has become more popular recently. Also, I did not say there was no ugliness in that culture, I said the ugliness there was basically no different to ugliness in our own culture - as if being Christian automatically meant you would never kill or persecute anybody of another faith. If radical Catholicism seriously catches on in Poland (and it still hasn't, thankfully), you might witness very unpleasant incidents re. religious minorities or atheists. That's religious ideology for you. That's why I don't buy it.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
31 May 2013 #157
Can someone confirm - is extra paid for working Sunday?
jon357 69 | 18,363
31 May 2013 #158
And that is the point, all religions claim absolute truth otherwise they are not religions. Harry chose to hold one to different standards.

The one that predominates in Poland perhaps?

And claiming 'absolute truth' is not a basis for legislation. Hard proof is.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
31 May 2013 #159
Can someone please give me just one credible reason why supermarket workers are to be singled out as somehow being more important than the rest of these people?

Not more important, but more exploited. At least that's my guess. You'de have to ask those MPs what were their reasons, I'm not their spokesperson (and neither is Polonius3) :)

That's what the leader of Katowice trade union of Społem shops has to say on the issue:

The ban on Sunday trading is the only salvation for cashiers? "They are treated as subhuman. They must get a chance to rest.
- I would invite a person who is against the closure of large stores on Sunday for a long Sunday stroll or on the grill and say: "It's fun, is not it? So just imagine thousands of wives and mothers sitting now at the tills at Tesco, Lidl or another Biedronka - says in an interview with naTemat Bozena Rybnik - President of the Katowice branch of the union employees of the chain stores "Spolem"/i]

natemat.pl/63073,zakaz-handlu-w-niedziele-jedynym-ratunkiem-dla-kasjerek-traktowane-sa-jak-podludzie-odpoczynek-w-niedziele-to-nie-zyczenie-a-kul

And could you, delph, tell me why shops in Belgium are closed on Sunday and none of you has any problem with that and Harry isn't insulting Belgians because of that?

despite it being common knowledge in Poland that people actually like working on Sundays.

Delph, what on Earth are you talking about??? xDDD
Common knowledge?
People like working on Sundays? xD
Who told you that?? ;D
I know noone, absolutely NOONE, who would like working on Sundays! And not even because of religious reasons. People simply don't like to work on weeknds! lol

Can someone confirm - is extra paid for working Sunday?

I have no idea, I've never worked on Sunday.

As for Polish labour law, I've just watched an interview with a Polish trade unionist on Polsat Biznes channel. He said 52% of employers in Poland brake the law (big foreign companies included).

Btw, did you know that Polish word for Saturday - "sobota" - comes from Jewish "Sabbath"? I don't think I realised that! lol It's the same with Spanish [i]sábado
, Italian sabato, Czech sobota, Russian суббота (subbota), Croatian subota.

I wonder when the usage of this word came into being in Poland (and Europe)?
Harry, do you know anything about this?
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #160
And claiming 'absolute truth' is not a basis for legislation

For the umpteenth time these proposals are about more than religion as much as you would like it to be otherwise.

Poland is more than a bunch of "failed Catholics".
Harry
31 May 2013 #161
shops in Belgium are closed on Sunday and none of you has any problem with that and Harry isn't insulting Belgians because of that?

I don't live in Belgium and have very little interest in what religious zealots there force other people to do.

I know noone, absolutely NOONE, who would like working on Sundays! And not even because of religious reasons. People simply don't like to work on weeknds! lol

I like working on Sundays. I know quite a few other people who do too, my girlfriend for example.

As for Polish labour law, I've just watched an interview with a Polish trade unionist on Polsat Biznes channel. He said 52% of employers in Poland brake the law (big foreign companies included).

Gosh, what are the chances of him saying that? As for what he claims to know, he has a legal obligation to file with the public prosecutor a notification if he has reasonable suspicion that any crime has been committed. If he doesn't do that, he himself commits a crime.

Harry, do you know anything about this?

I've never heard a thing about that.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
31 May 2013 #162
I don't live in Belgium and have very little interest in what religious zealots there force other people to do.

So people in Germany don't work on Sunday because of "religious zealots" too?

I like working on Sundays. I know quite a few other people who do too, my girlfriend for example.

OK, then I don't know a single Pole who would like working on Sunday :) Even if there are such people there are a very little minority and probably don't have children.

Gosh, what are the chances of him saying that? As for what he claims to know, he has a legal obligation to file with the public prosecutor a notification if he has reasonable suspicion that any crime has been committed. If he doesn't do that, he himself commits a crime.

What are the chances of him saying that? What he claims to know? :)
Oh, Harry, Harry... It's easy to assume things, judge people without checking first, isn't it?
It isn't that trade unionist who is "claiming" anything. This data comes from a report made by a state institution - Państwowa Inspekcja Pracy lol

Here you go:

Hiring black, increase the number of contracts and work orders rather than time , more and more complaints about employers not respecting time and arrears with the payment of wages - a picture of labor law violations emerging from the PIP control in 2010-2012 .

The conclusions of the control of the State Labour Inspectorate in the period presented on Tuesday at a meeting of the Parliament acting at the Labour Protection Council in Poland.

jon357 69 | 18,363
31 May 2013 #163
The OP and so many of those who are actively involved in this 'campaign' make their motivations clear. And fortunately Poland is far more than Catholicism. It is officially secular since 1921.
Palivec - | 380
31 May 2013 #164
I don't live in Belgium and have very little interest in what religious zealots there force other people to do.

Not "religious zealots" are the reason for this but trade unions, social democrats and even politicians like Bismarck, who reintroduced this day as a "day of rest", after Early Capitalism in the early 19th century forced people to work every day.

And almost everyone in Central Europe likes the idea that at least one day of the week is not devoted to brainless consumerism and the exploitation of labour.
Harry
31 May 2013 #165
OK, then I don't know a single Pole who would like working on Sunday :) Even if there are such people there are a very little minority and probably don't have children.

Come to my office: I'll introduce you to lots of them. Most (almost all in fact) have children. They seem to like the 200% wages on Sunday.

This data comes from a report made by a state institution - Państwowa Inspekcja Pracy lol

PIP saying 'hardly any companies break labour law' would be like turkeys saying 'Christmas? Love it'.
I'm surprised that the figure is as low as what PIP say. I remember where I used to work a bloke who was fired for being crap went crying to the PIP, they came in for a spot check and found that, horror of horrors, some people had desk lights with broken bulbs. The company was issued with a formal warning for this breach of the applicable regulations and told that next time it'll be a fine.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
31 May 2013 #166
Come to my office: I'll introduce you to lots of them.

How many exactly?

Most (almost all in fact) have children.

And nannies? lol Or are they all men? lol

They seem to like the 200% wages on Sunday.

Ah, yes... Then they like the wages, not working on Sunday. I'm sure they would like 200% wages if they would get them for working on Friday too ;)

That's nice, Harry, that you worked in such a nice workplace with such trivial problems. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a job that an ordinary Pole does, was it? Where did you work, Mr. Expat? ;)

And what, you judge the whole institution by that one example? o_O
I know ordinary Poles, Harry, who work in factories and supermarkets, etc. and who put up with all kinds of exploitation and are afraid to even complain to trade unions in fear of losing their jobs. I see those MPs who signed that proposal aren't the only ones who don't know what's the reality on the ground...
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #167
The reform of the trading law is supported by the union movement and people from most if not all political parties but you and others choose to focus on the religious aspect.

Not "religious zealots" are the reason for this but trade unions, social democrats and even politicians like Bismarck, who reintroduced this day as a "day of rest", after Early Capitalism in the early 19th century forced people to work every day.

Exactly but right leaning people want to remove any opportunity for quality reliable predictable leisure time.

And fortunately Poland is far more than Catholicism. It is officially secular since 1921.

Yes, I did say that Poland was more than a bunch of "failed Catholics".
Harry
31 May 2013 #168
And nannies? lol Or are they all men? lol

Actually they're almost all women.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a job that an ordinary Pole does, was it?

Actually I was the only foreigner working there.

Then they like the wages, not working on Sunday.

Fun fact: everybody likes the wages, not the working. If it weren't for the wages, people wouldn't do the working: that's why it is called 'work'.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
31 May 2013 #169
Actually they're almost all women.

Wow, then that's... unusual o_O Why do they choose to work on Sunday rather then spend time with their children? Do they need that extra money that much? Do they have nannies?

And how many of those women? You didn't answer that.

Actually I was the only foreigner working there.

I didn't write "Poles in general". I wrote "ordinary Poles". So, where did you work?

Fun fact: everybody likes the wages, not the working. If it weren't for the wages, people wouldn't do the working: that's why it is called 'work'.

Well, let's not exaggerate - some people like their work, even if they're exceptions to the rule :)
And I stand by what I wrote - I don't know any Pole who would like working on Sunday. Either they aren't paid extra money (or enough) for working on Sunday or they prefer to rest and spend time with their family on weekend.
Harry
31 May 2013 #170
Why do they choose to work on Sunday rather then spend time with their children?

Because the money is good. I assume they all have nannies, given that the work all week. But perhaps on Sundays their husbands do the child care.

I didn't write "Poles in general". I wrote "ordinary Poles". So, where did you work?

The Poles there weren't any more special than most Poles are. It was a publishing company.

Well, let's not exaggerate - some people like their work, even if they're exceptions to the rule :)

I like my work: but I don't like it enough to work for free.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
31 May 2013 #171
Because the money is good.

So, if I understand correctly, nothing terrible would happen if they didn't work on Sunday? They wouldn't starve, yes?

I assume they all have nannies, given that the work all week.

They work all week? Are they workaholics? lol

The Poles there weren't any more special than most Poles are. It was a publishing company.

lol Well, Harry, a publishing company isn't exactly the same thing as a factory or a supermarket.

And just in case you didn't know - ordinary Poles usually can't afford nannies.
Harry
31 May 2013 #172
So, if I understand correctly, nothing terrible would happen if they didn't work on Sunday? They wouldn't starve, yes?

I'd be amazed if they starved.

And just in case you didn't know - ordinary Poles usually can't afford nannies.

Here in Warsaw having some form of child care is pretty much required (it's very hard for a family here to live on a single wage).
Paulina 12 | 2,230
31 May 2013 #173
I'd be amazed if they starved.

I thought so.

Here in Warsaw having some form of child care is pretty much required (it's very hard for a family here to live on a single wage).

Well, here in the rest of Poland (lol), people in general usually simply can't afford nannies. And in the rest of Poland it's also hard to live on a single wage and usually both parents are working.
jon357 69 | 18,363
31 May 2013 #174
Exactly but right leaning people want to remove any opportunity for quality reliable predictable leisure time.

Maybe you do - but a relaxation of restrictive laws works very well indeed in the UK. I don't see Poles there insisting on a particular day of the week off.

And since you're pretending to be so keen to change the status quo in Poland, I don't see the shops empty on Sunday here, either.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
31 May 2013 #175
Harry you haven't got a leg to stand on defending your sectarian comment.

Sure he doesn't.

. I don't see Poles there insisting on a particular day of the week off.

And since you're pretending to be so keen to change the status quo in Poland, I don't see the shops empty on Sunday here, either.

I guess you would call that a scientific proof
jon357 69 | 18,363
31 May 2013 #176
I guess you would call that a scientific proof

I'd call it reality, and something that people are happy with.
Harry
31 May 2013 #177
Funny that so many of the people who actually live here want to see Sunday trading continued, while the people who don't live here and so won't be affected by any ban are in favour of the views of the minority being forced on the majority.

Sure he doesn't. It is waste of time to debate reasonably with some people here,some are even ashamed of their own ethnicity.

If you're aiming that comment at me (which you very are), I'd have to remind you that no matter how many times a lie is told it does not become the truth.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
31 May 2013 #178
I have been an atheist for 16 years, but I came to conclusion that any faith is better then atheism.

If I could 'like' posts on here, I would do it with this one. Just curious, since your posts says you have been, and not, you were, Does this mean you are now a person of faith or still a non believer?

I can't remember the exact quote [need to find it], but there is a well known piece of writing where someone explains his faith as being something he is not certain of, but would rather take that uncertain, but potentially wonderful lifestyle and belief, than the glum world we currently know and see, with nothing more to hope for.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
31 May 2013 #179
Funny that so many of the people who actually live here want to see Sunday trading continued

Who are those "many people"?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
31 May 2013 #180
I'd call it reality, and something that people are happy with.

aye! your reality, not to be mistaken with scientific research.


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