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Shops in Poland to be closed on Sunday?


Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #91
don't think his comment was sectarian at all. And the presumption made by Harry was probably made on what we all can see. Not many people go to church, far more declare faith (yet they don't practise it), and even more are put in stathistics as believers because the data is shown based on the fact of being baptised.

There is no probably about it, Harry knows fine well that his comments are sectarian but doesn't want to admit that he is forcing his view of Christianity onto others. It's not for Harry or anyone else to dictate exactly how individuals choose to express or interpret their faith.

What is it exactly that makes his interpretation of Christianity so much better than another persons especially as he believes that Catholics don't follow the teachings of Christ?

It's rather hypocritical to rant about proposed changes to trading laws limiting freedom when his opinion is clearly opposed to religious freedom by claiming that Catholics don't follow the teachings of Christ.

I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ was the phrase used.

Edit

I'm not holding the people who want to ban Sunday trading to a higher standard than other people because they are Catholics, I expect them to behave at that standard because they are Christians (specifically Catholics). Or at least they claim to be Christians and Catholics, the actions of many of them very much suggest otherwise.

Again you are judging people by standards you have selected. What exactly allows you to be the arbiter of Christianity?
jwojcie 2 | 763
29 May 2013 #92
I'm totally pro. Mostly because it would be really nice to have one day off from city rush - thats for me. It would be also really positive that all this clerks which are sometimes pressured to work on Sundays would have a day off when all other family members have it. Saying that - it seems to me that it would be very good pro-family legislation.
Harry
29 May 2013 #93
Again you are judging people by standards you have selected.

No, those words are the words of Christ, not the words of Harry. Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ. Or would you like to claim that Catholics are not Christians.

What exactly allows you to be the arbiter of Christianity?

I'm not; Jesus is, those are quotes from him. Deal with it.

Mostly because it would be really nice to have one day off from city rush - thats for me.

What stops you from taking Sunday off? I'd guess that there is nothing which actually stops you but you simply chose not to take it completely off.

all this clerks which are sometimes pressured to work on Sundays

a) They aren't.
b) They are paid extra for working Sundays.
c) What about all the other people who are expected to work on Sundays? Why shouldn't train staff, cinema ticket sellers, airline pilots, sewage plant worker, barmen, teachers and all the rest also get Sunday off?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
29 May 2013 #94
I do think there is merit in the German system however. Shopping centres being open 24/7 is convenient, but these private companies cannot be trusted not to exploit workers. They try to erode the premium payments made constantly for unsociable hours.

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of law. Poland already has good laws in this respect, particularly given the pro-employee bias when it comes to labour law.

I think restricting Supermarkets and shopping centres to something like 10-4pm on Sundays would be a good compromise. The leisure industry would of course be excluded, as would convenience stores under a certain size. People could still get whatever essentials they need.

Why? What about the workers in the leisure industry, the convenience stores, etc? Why is it okay for Pawel to work in Fresh Express, but not in Carrefour? My local Fresh Express is open from 5am till 11pm every single day - so actually longer than Carrefour, yet they would be exempt.

But in an average job which starts at 7-8:00 am and finishes somewhere in the afternoon ( 16-17:00 )and the workplace is above the ground it's a bit unfair for people to not be able to spend a normal holiday with kids or family.

Many people such as doctors, nurses, policemen etc don't get to spend a "normal holiday" with their families.

I see that not one person in this thread has explained why it is appropriate to deny people the right to earn a wage on Sundays.

There was a comment about Belgium - well - I guess Belgians earn far better than Poles, so while giving up Sunday work for them is no big deal, it is a far bigger deal in Poland.
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #95
I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ
Or at least they claim to be Christians and Catholics, the actions of many of them very much suggest otherwise.

No, those words are the words of Christ

They are your words Harry, you judged and judge people according to your view of their Christianity. You made a sectarian statement and are now trying to demonstrate that a dog is a cat.
Olaf 6 | 956
29 May 2013 #96
What is it exactly that makes his interpretation of Christianity so much better than another persons especially as he believes that Catholics don't follow the teachings of Christ?

Just the very fact which he mentioned: The word of Cathol has very little or nothing in common to Christ teachings.

the FSM says I shouldn't.

You got me there. Well if it is based on religious basis then I wouldn't support it at all. I was thinking more of the weekend with family etc. That kind of thing. I dunno - I should be going to the 'native woods' of mine as Ironside suggested.

What exactly allows you to be the arbiter of Christianity?

Last time I checked everyone was entitled to their own opinion. That is enough to say this or even more. This is solely Harry's opinion, which you can like, dislike, hate, whatever - it will be just your opinion to which you are also entitled to.

But maybe I'm wrong - maybe one needs a special qualification to be

the arbiter of Christianity?

or anything else?

You made a sectarian statement and are now trying to demonstrate that a dog is a cat.

Well, it is a sect. One of many. Which evolved into a well-oiled money-making machine, a uniformed, world-wide corporation with sales-points in all countries on the globe. Still, started as one of countless Christian sects. Now the Church has the right to call e.g. Jehova's Witness a sect or oher smaller ones. Where is the line here?
Harry
29 May 2013 #97
Why is it okay for Pawel to work in Fresh Express, but not in Carrefour? My local Fresh Express is open from 5am till 11pm every single day - so actually longer than Carrefour, yet they would be exempt.

That is because the business model there uses franchisees, meaning that each business is so small that it flies under the radar (and why members of the family are the ones running the place on public holidays).

I see that not one person in this thread has explained why it is appropriate to deny people the right to earn a wage on Sundays.

That would be because it is blindly obvious to all that nobody has the right to deny people the right to earn a wage on the day of their choosing.

They are your words Harry

Oh dear Barney, you're lying yet again, aren't you: those teaching are the words of Christ. Are you having trouble telling me and Christ apart? He's the one who turns water into wine, I special in turning beer into urine.

Do you really insist that I quote the parts of the bible where Jesus gives those teachings to his followers? Seriously?
I have never made any recommendations to my followers (not that I'd want to be followed by anybody who'd follow me) about not judging lest they be judged: that was Jesus. Just as I haven't banned divorce: that was Jesus to. And much as I would like to have been, I wasn't the one who said "Let he who is perfect cast the first stone at her": that was Jesus too (I'd most probably have added at the end of it the words "even though she did say Jehovah").
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #98
Oh dear Barney, you're lying yet again

I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ
Or at least they claim to be Christians and Catholics, the actions of many of them very much suggest otherwise.
Those are quotes from you not Jesus, you have not explained your sectarian statements and as usual you wont.
Harry
29 May 2013 #99
ou have not explained your sectarian statements and as usual you wont.

Now you're both boring and lying Barney: I gave on the previous page some of the teaching of Christ which quite a few of the Catholics who want Sunday trading in Poland to be banned appear to have forgotten.

Do you have anything to say on the topic of this thread or are you posting here solely to attack me? If it is the former, given your knowledge of scripture, could you perhaps point out some verses in the bible where Jesus deals with the topic of not going shopping on a Sunday?
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #100
Now you're both boring and lying Barney:

It's boring watching you twist and turn as usual this time to disguise your sectarianism.

Its relevant to the topic as pointed out above

It's rather hypocritical to rant about proposed changes to trading laws limiting freedom when his opinion is clearly opposed to religious freedom by claiming that Catholics don't follow the teachings of Christ.

jon357 69 | 18,364
29 May 2013 #101
I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ

I quite agree with your statement, given some of the church's more intemperate behaviour in Franco's Spain etc (and in pre-war Poland) but really this is irrelevant to the discussion. Human frailty of fallen mankind rarely lives up to religious values.

And for those who wish to make their own mind up when they open their shop - who is anyone else to dictate to them.
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #102
I quite agree with your statement,

Quite pathetic Jon.

Its about freedom from intemperate minds. How can you expect freedom to trade and freedom to express yourself in any way you want including spiritually while denying that freedom to others?

That is what sectarian statements do, they curtail freedom
Harry
29 May 2013 #103
And for those who wish to make their own mind up when they open their shop - who is anyone else to dictate to them.

Those who are, apparently, without sin. Either that or those who put themselves above the teachings of Christ. Or in some cases people appear to think that they are without sin and know better than God what God meant to say.

How can you expect freedom to trade and freedom to express yourself in any way you want including spiritually while denying that freedom to others?

Where does Jon say he wants to deny anything to anybody? Where do I say that? Other of course than denying religious zealots the freedom to cram their beliefs down the throats of others.

Oh, were you just lying again when you said that Jon wants to deny freedom to others?
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #104
Oh, were you just lying again when you said that Jon wants to deny freedom to others?

Your sectarian comment was being explained to Jon who "mistakenly" thought I had made the sectarian comment.

You really choose to see what you want through your sectarian haze, how is that honest?

Edit

Or in some cases people appear to think that they are without sin and know better than God what God meant to say.

Which is exactly what you were doing while judging people based on their religion
Harry
29 May 2013 #105
Which is exactly what you were doing while judging people based on their religion

And yet another lie from you Barney. I don't judge people based on their religion; I don't care if they want to have only lesbian dog shaggers as their religious leaders and worship Marmite as the body of their Lord. Just as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on other people, I do not give a fcuk.

Which brings us back to the topic of this thread: Catholics in Poland wanting to force their religious beliefs with regard to shopping on Sunday. I wonder why you don't want to discuss Catholic bigots and their desire to force everybody to behave according to their rules. Why is it that you refuse to tell us what Jesus had to say about going to the shops on Sundays?
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #106
I wonder why you don't want to discuss Catholic bigots and their desire to force everybody to behave according to their rules.

That is quite a bigoted thing to say assuming that all people who want a change in the Sunday trading laws are doing so because they are Catholic. There couldn't possibly be any other reason, just your judgment and assumption that it's because they are Catholic.
Harry
29 May 2013 #107
Given that Poland is a 98% Catholic country, it is a very safe bet that the people here who want to change trading laws are Catholics and Sunday is their 'special' day.
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #108
It's very convenient for you to have a number of standards you can apply to any particular point at any particular time.

Today it's excusing sectarianism by claiming one thing, another day it's refuting the same numbers in order to claim something different.

The fact is that a lot of people would like to change these laws, some are Catholic some are not, even if all were Catholic ascribing your prejudiced views to them is a little bit bigoted, a la all Blacks are good dancers or all Jews have big noses.
Harry
29 May 2013 #109
The fact is that a lot of people would like to change these laws, some are Catholic some are not,

And what percentage of the people in Poland who want to change the Sunday trading laws are Catholic? 98%? 97%?

even if all were Catholic ascribing your prejudiced views to them is a little bit bigoted, a la all Blacks are good dancers or all Jews have big noses.

So still no chance that you going to tell us Jesus' teachings on nipping to the shop for a bottle of milk and a loaf of bread even though it is Sunday? I do wonder why that might be. Such a pity, I mean, I'm happy to tell you about the teachings of Jesus which the zealots who think they can tell people when to and when not to work are ignoring.

Could it be that you simply don't want attention drawn to the fact that Jesus was just fine with people heading down to the market for some bread and fish on Sundays? Could that be why you have some many insults to hurl at me and so few words to aim at the topic of this thread?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
29 May 2013 #110
What booklet? I am really curious what booklet you mean that I carry? The Unwritten Book of Logics and Common Sense? Mind, Reason and Sanity, pt 1 and 2?

That booklet you are constantly quoting from, how you chose to call its immaterial.
What matters is that your ready forums for explaining the world are not yours, that stuff is an old shyte. long digested, but put by commie tricksters into a new box and is being sold as something fresh.

Contrary to you probably, I am not folowing any particular one book or booklet, not even a leaflet.

Well there are variation of that booklet and it could be in few volumes but the basic remains the same - falsehood.

I do however despise any mind limitations that people set for other people, whether by religious books (any) or by other means.

Mind limitations are more often than not self inflicted. Nobody is forced to follow religious teaching and nobody should be forced to follow self proclaimed liberals teachings.

If you are serious as to your motivation you should go against self-proclaimed commissars who are launching anti-Christan and anti-freedom campaign and not fraternize with them.

Unless of course your claim is not true and you are one of those death-brain -zombies who understand freedom as the fight against religion.
Lenka 3 | 2,810
29 May 2013 #111
Less personal more on topic. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :)
kondzior 12 | 1,242
29 May 2013 #112
Great. No need to discuss anything further then. Just sit back and enjoy your ride. BTW - I strongly disagree with you

Some values are harder to understand then others. True knowledge is in fact nothing other then the knowledge of values (hence why scientific knowledge is not real knowledge), and some values take a great deal of time and effort in order to be assimilated. For instance, genius in art is something i only begun to truly understand after a great deal of exploration and exposure. This also means that certain values need to be accepted by faith before they can be understood, and that the attainment of knowledge actually begins with a passive intuition and a certain degree of trust. In a sense, the relativistic argument can never work on someone who has already understood a certain value, and some values are so obvious that society is prevented from falling apart purely due to common sense. Everybody can see that murder is wrong, but not anyone is able to grasp higher values such as genius or the immanence of God, which is nothing other then the differentiation between the real and the illusion, Atma and Maya, the fundamental qualification for everyone who wants to seek liberation, and thus the highest value there is. Basically, relativism may not necessarily drive a give society into utter chaos, but does in fact succeed in preventing anyone in attaining the more difficult values, resulting into a world of sheer stupidity on one hand, and unrealized spiritual possibilities on the other.

How can you be so sure? Have you talked to every single person alive today?

How do I know? simple logic. Without God in your life, there is nothing else to do. You can care only for your material wellbeing, the true values cannot exist without an absolute point of reference. What is there that is more absolute then God?

You strive to get close to God, or atribute a way too much meaning into this life.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
30 May 2013 #113
How do I know? simple logic.

So it's logic now? Not trust or intuition or faith? Why?

Without God in your life, there is nothing else to do.

Are you really sure that you have the right to speak for other people?
While I understand that this is how YOU feel, I am not in the slightest convinced that you are in possession of absolute truth.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
30 May 2013 #114
I always thought that for those professionals that serve working people, like even dentists and doctors, evening and weekend business hours make more sense.

I am yet to see a dentist or a doctor with private practice willing to work on Sunday :))) Even dentists and doctors working on Saturday are a real rarity in my city. I even had a conversation once with a dentist during my visit about her working hours and I said sth about it being more convenient for people to come in the afternoon and on Saturday since people work and go to school and to the university. The dentist said that she understands that but "Weekend is for my family, I have kids, you know. What can I do?".

Given that the leader of the 'we represent the people, not the elite' party has no idea where Poles do their shopping, it's no surprise that MPs from his party have no idea when or why people want to work.

It's not only MPs from PiS. According to the article MPs from PO, PSL and SP also signed the proposal.

Why aren't the religious zealots going after professions other than retail workers?

Many people don't work on weekends, Harry. Retail workers do. And I already shared my guesses about this in previous posts. Also, I think it doesn't have to be only "religious zealots" and that it doesn't have to be only about religion.

Why should some religious zealot be able to tell me when I can and cannot practise my profession? And if he doesn't have the right to force me to change my life to suit his religious diktats, why does he have the right to force them on anybody else?

And why would an atheist force someone to work on Sunday? Why would he have the right to change someone's life to his atheistic diktats? :) You see, it can be turned the other way around too.

Poland is a democracy. The people rule the country through their representatives. Representatives of four political parties has signed a proposal to ban Sunday trading. I don't know how many of those MPs signed it. The proposal will be voted in the Parliament. It will either go through or not. As it is a democracy. It's the majority that usually makes the law in a democracy. Since, as you pointed out, the majority of Poles are Catholic, the possibility is that majority of Poles wouldn't oppose the Sunday trade ban as fiercely as you. Maybe they would like it. Or maybe not - maybe they would think it isn't a good idea, especially in the days of global economic crisis. As I understand the proposal is still to be voted in the Parliament, so we'll see what the representatives of the people we'll do. It's just a proposal. Come down everybody lol

That's, among others, what amuses and irritates me a bit, I must admit. It's just a proposal, we live in a democracy and MPs have a right to make such proposals. As sobieski wrote:

In my native Belgium shops are closed on Sunday and nobody cries about it.
Has nothing to with the "Lord's Day" or crap like that. Just the hard-fought for idea that people have the right to Sunday off.

So why nobody cries about shops closed on Sunday in Belgium?

Which brings us back to the topic of this thread: Catholics in Poland wanting to force their religious beliefs with regard to shopping on Sunday. I wonder why you don't want to discuss Catholic bigots and their desire to force everybody to behave according to their rules.

So what about non-Catholic non-bigoted Belgians who prohibit others to enjoy their work and make money on Sunday? :)

Many people such as doctors, nurses, policemen etc don't get to spend a "normal holiday" with their families.

Such professions are special cases, delph, I think you understand that.

So still no chance that you going to tell us Jesus' teachings on nipping to the shop for a bottle of milk and a loaf of bread even though it is Sunday?

Jesus' stance on the Sabbath is as follows:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+2%3A23-3%3A6&version=NIV

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NIV
kondzior 12 | 1,242
30 May 2013 #115
Are you really sure that you have the right to speak for other people?
While I understand that this is how YOU feel, I am not in the slightest convinced that you are in possession of absolute truth.

I've met many self proclaimed atheists who also lead fairly normal and peaceful lives. This does not mean atheism is not an inherently destructive ideology. The damage is incremental. Christian morality has been ingrained in our civilization for so long its not going to disappear overnight, but it will eventually weaken and brake. Besides, faithlessness is not evil in itself, it is the inherent indifference to evil and degeneracy that eventually brings ruin upon a society.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
30 May 2013 #116
it is the inherent indifference to evil

Not believing in a god does not mean being indifferent to evil. Good and evil are real, whatever names you call them or whatever entities you choose to associate them with (god, satan) or not.

So your argument is invalid.
I have nothing against the Catholic or Christian tradition. I have lived in India surrounded by Hinduists and Buddhists and again, felt quite at home. I do not divide people into the faithful and the faithless.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 May 2013 #117
The idea of a day of rest once a week is deeply engrained in most cultures, although whether it is Friday, Saturday or Sunday may differ. In addition to major holidays (Christmas, Easter, Independence Day, Corpus Christi, May 3rd, etc.), that one a week as a mini-holiday, a day of worship, respite and/or recreation. True, emergency services must work, but most schools, factories, offices and other enterprises and institutions have the day off. The legislator in many different countreis has acknowledged that and worked to limit work-a-day activity on that day. That varies from place to place. In Michigan for isntance no alcohol is sold until noon or 1 PM on Sundays and only beer and wine are sold for the rest of the day. In Poland those in need of bread or milk (not to mention tipples and fags) have shops that are open as well as petrol stations which stock them round the clock every day of the week.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
30 May 2013 #118
So why should petrol station workers have to work?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
30 May 2013 #119
In case some nuter would like to buy some fuel and use it to put people on fire.
kondzior 12 | 1,242
30 May 2013 #120
Not believing in a god does not mean being indifferent to evil. Good and evil are real, whatever names you call them or whatever entities you choose to associate them with (god, satan) or not. So your argument is invalid.

Without God as absolute objective reference, how can you tell the good from the evil, though? How can you tell whose morality is "truer". Nazi believed that gasing milions of people is a good thing. Atheist can be doing the right thing according to his individual definition, not doing the right thing based on some universal truth or idea of justice. Thus, for instance, affirmative action is "morally" correct from an anti-racist point of view but isn't "just" in some higher sense that transcends individual polemics. Morality is ultimately relative and it tends to differ from culture to culture. Virtue is however perfectly objective since it derives from the Absolute directly. Ideally, morality ought to come from virtue in first place, but this isn't what is happening today. Disenfranchising whites is morally correct because of some petty individualistic idea of "fairness". Polemics become more important then truth. To speak of "moral high ground" in this context is redundant, since leftists invent their own morality as they go along.

I have nothing against the Catholic or Christian tradition. I have lived in India surrounded by Hinduists and Buddhists and again, felt quite at home. I do not divide people into the faithful and the faithless.

I have been an atheist for 16 years, but I came to conclusion that any faith is better then atheism.


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