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Shops in Poland to be closed on Sunday?


Lenka 3 | 2,810
29 May 2013 #31
The constitution is from 1997 so not so early after the end of PRL. And besides- we had referendum- so most Poles accepted it- sorry, but you'll have to deal with it.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
29 May 2013 #32
So it was not long after communism ended then. During communism, they prayed [jak trwoga to do Boga], but once the threat was gone, It seems they forgot what was most important and declared Poland a secular country.

No, WP. They declared Poland a secular country that respected everyone in line with the traditions of the May 3rd Constitution and the March 1921 Constitution - both of which were incredibly important. The fact that you haven't even read the Constitution of Poland says a lot about your true feelings about the country - and the fact that you called it nonsense (and appeared to know nothing about it) makes it even worse.

Call yourself a patriot? Pah, you don't even defend the Constitution, the source of law, the document in which Poland has faith in. Do I need to remind you that the Constitution is incredibly important to Polish people and that it draws upon a thousand years of Polish history to create it?

You should be ashamed of yourself for your disrespect towards the Constitution of Poland. I might not be Polish, but I think it's my (and everyone else's) obligation to defend it. If you don't agree with it, try and get it changed, but don't call it "nonsense" or make up bizzare theories about it being a Communist creation.

So if you live in a country then you must be a native? Is that your logic?

You were born, brought up and still live in England. I'd call you pretty native.

So if more Polish people moved in to the UK and eventually the constitution turned it in to a Catholic country, would it not bother you [and be honest, please]?

Democracy rules.
Paulina 12 | 2,230
29 May 2013 #33
No company can force an employee to work 7 days a week and any company that tried would soon find itself losing a labour court case.

I don't think it's even legal to make people work 7 days a week unless they're on umowa zlecenie?

In that case they acted against Polish labour law anyway.

In supermarkets they have days off as well.

Well, guys, it wasn't me who wrote this in that article:

On one side, people working in shopping malls often work a dozen hours or so a day 7 days a week

There is the law, of course, but I guess as the example of Biedronka shows laws can be broken:
stowarzyszenie-biedronka.pl/poszkodowani/Biedronka/artkuly/nie_zrobicie_z_nas_niewolnikow.htm

Do not enslave us!
Labor law in western Europe is similar to ours. With one difference: there is observed, while in Poland isn't. It is difficult to accept, especially since the labor law violations occurring in Western companies, even in the Portuguese network Ladybug, which is headed by Pedro da Silva. They treat us like once their overseas colonies. Enough!

Yes. And I also asked HR people from companies that work Sundays: more than a few have lottery systems for allocating Sunday hours due to more staff wanting the hours than there being hours to work.

Well, then I guess Polish MPs yet again have no idea what is the reality on the ground.

On the other hand I know families in which one parent is free on weekends and the other gets free days during the week and they have no time for each other and have a hard time going somewhere for a weekend.
Lenka 3 | 2,810
29 May 2013 #34
There is the law, of course, but I guess as the example of Biedronka shows laws can be broken:

They can be broken (as any law can) but for that there are consequences. There is a reason why Biedronka in now one of the best supermarket employer in my town.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
29 May 2013 #35
I find it funny that delph tries to find arguments to strip me of patriotism and prove I don't care about Poland. You can give as many of your reasons as you want, I will always be more Polish than you. I speak this language on a regular basis at home, have Polish pals, keep up with what is going on in Poland, and go to Poland on a regular basis. I don't feel I need to explain myself to you, but this is what I do. You decided you like Poland, so you moved there [still unsure why, you never really explained when people asked].

As for the constitution being nonsense. I never said this. I said a tiny piece of this constitution [regarding Poland being secular], is nonsense. In my eyes, it is a nonsensical thing to do.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
29 May 2013 #36
Polish people don't disrespect their constitution by calling it 'nonsense'. I know quite a few Poles who would openly slap you in the face for such disrespect. I think it's actually quite shameful that a self proclaimed patriot didn't know the contents of the Constitution while a bunch of foreigners did. In fact, you didn't even know when the Constitution passed into law.

As for the constitution being nonsense. I never said this. I said a tiny piece of this constitution [regarding Poland being secular], is nonsense. In my eyes, it is a nonsensical thing to do.

Calling any part of it "nonsense" is about as unpatriotic as it gets.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
29 May 2013 #37
^ He's still at it. He's moved to exaggeration now.

Bottom line is, Poland is still seen as a Catholic country. Look at the statistics. Italy is probably officially secular as well [since in these times, it seems politically correct to be secular], but we know in reality that it is over 90% Catholic.
Lenka 3 | 2,810
29 May 2013 #38
How it's seen doesn't matter. Our laws are clear. And as Delph pointed out- it's nothing recent. Anyway- end of the off- topic. Back to shops closed on Sunday.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
29 May 2013 #39
Bottom line is, Poland is still seen as a Catholic country. Look at the statistics. Italy is probably officially secular as well [since in these times, it seems politically correct to be secular], but we know in reality that it is over 90% Catholic.

What is your problem with Poland officially recognising the right of freedom of religion to all? Why are you trying to deny it?

I mean, you don't even live here. Why do you care that we live in a tolerant, multicultural society that accepts people for who they are, not for what you think they should be?

I still find your calling of the Constitution "nonsense" to be one of the most disrespectful things I've ever seen on PF.

Remember, the Constitution calls on 1000 years of Polish history. And to those of us that have actually read the Constitution (and others) - we can see that the 1997 Constitution carries on a long line of tolerant, progressive, decent Constitutional history.

Anyway, the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion to all. Therefore, people of other religions and beliefs (whatever they may be) should be free to work on Sundays if they see fit.
f stop 25 | 2,513
29 May 2013 #40
I always thought that for those professionals that serve working people, like even dentists and doctors, evening and weekend business hours make more sense.
kondzior 12 | 1,242
29 May 2013 #41
This was written in our constitution for over 15 years

The purpose of separation of church and state was to keep religious organizations and the state out of each other's business, not to strip all trace of religion from governance and turn the state into a de facto atheist theocracy.

It's funny that in the UK where Church and state are not separated, Christianity appears to be in far worse shape.
bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53
29 May 2013 #42
Poland is officially a secular country.

Really? How is that possible if the kids learn religion in kindergarten & school?
smurf 39 | 1,981
29 May 2013 #43
Poland continues to do everything in its power to regress instead of progress.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
29 May 2013 #44
atheist theocracy.

Isn't that a contradiction in terms?
kondzior 12 | 1,242
29 May 2013 #45
Atheism is the belief that the universe was created for no reason by no particular force of will or intellect, and that nothing awaits a human after death but eternal oblivion. It is a religion that worships death, entropy, and lack of meaning in life and universe.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
29 May 2013 #46
Really? Since when has atheism been a religion? I must have missed the memo. FYI, atheism is also not a synonym for secularism. A secular state (like Poland) guarantees freedom of religion and belief (so any religion or lack thereof is OK). An atheist state (like communist Korea maybe?) would force people to abandon any religious belief they might have. I feel embarrassed to have to explain such obvious things to an adult.

So yes, my original remark still stands. "Atheist theocracy" is a contradiction in terms. And atheism is NOT a religion. I am about to use a stereotype here, but are you American or currently living in the States?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
29 May 2013 #47
Really? How is that possible if the kids learn religion in kindergarten & school?

Easily - if you look at the law, religion is treated as something outside of the core programme. It is legal to withdraw your child from religion, but not from mathematics for example.

I am about to use a stereotype here, but are you American or currently living in the States?

He claims to be Polish, although I think we can tell the truth.
Olaf 6 | 956
29 May 2013 #48
Here's an interestin survey, I wonder what was the methodology of it, but anyway it is a bit closer to reality (the 81 % people describing themselves as religious - I think it's still exagurrated judging just on what I see):

My opinion: shops should decide on their own. There should be no laws on that! If you are a proprietor of a shop it is your business and you should decide. If you want to close your shop and make siesta in the mid-day - fine. If you want to respect the sabbath on Sunday - fine.

But there will be also people who will open their businesses, because there are people, like myself, who usually can do shopping only on those days.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
29 May 2013 #49
If you want to respect the sabbath on Sunday - fine.

There's a chain of toy shops in the UK that does just that. The owner very publicly says that he doesn't want to open on Sunday, so he doesn't.
jon357 69 | 18,364
29 May 2013 #50
So if more Polish people moved in to the UK and eventually the constitution turned it in to a Catholic country, would it not bother you [and be honest, please]?

Excuse me for answering a question posed to someone else, but no.Not in the slightest. England is Anglican anyway which is close. Whether a state is secular or not is a matter of its residents' choice. Poland, where I live chose to be legally secular.

Where do you stand on this?

Shops should be able to open whenever they like.

If staff who work on Sunday want to go to mass, no problem - tfor this reason the RCC promote the Saturday vigil mass.
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #51
Keeping holy the Lord's Day

Still cramming your religious views down other people's throats then.

No but
It's good that Poland allows freedom of religion.

What are you talking about, delph? If they tell you to work on Sunday, you work on Sunday, you have no other choice if you want to keep the job.

Exactly that's why the unions would like to see restrictions on Sunday trading.

I would like to see some evidence that Polish Unions "would like to ban working full stop, while receiving full salaries". Or assume its just right wing rambling.

And what was the Jew stuff about?
Harry
29 May 2013 #52
Well, then I guess Polish MPs yet again have no idea what is the reality on the ground.

Given that the leader of the 'we represent the people, not the elite' party has no idea where Poles do their shopping, it's no surprise that MPs from his party have no idea when or why people want to work.

On the other hand I know families in which one parent is free on weekends and the other gets free days during the week and they have no time for each other and have a hard time going somewhere for a weekend.

My girlfriend works every other weekend teaching. Because of the type of school she's employed by she doesn't get extra salary for working on Sundays, unlike people who work in shops. Why aren't the religious zealots going after professions other than retail workers?

I also work weekends, usually about one or two weekend days per month. I like the money and usually work only on days when my girlfriend is working too. Sometimes I'll work two weeks in a row working every day, I don't have to but I choose to. Why should some religious zealot be able to tell me when I can and cannot practise my profession? And if he doesn't have the right to force me to change my life to suit his religious diktats, why does he have the right to force them on anybody else?
kondzior 12 | 1,242
29 May 2013 #53
FYI, atheism is also not a synonym for secularism.
A secular state (like Poland) guarantees freedom of religion and belief (so any religion or lack thereof is OK).

What we have in Poland now.

An atheist state (like communist Korea maybe?) would force people to abandon any religious belief they might have. I feel embarrassed to have to explain such obvious things to an adult.

What people like Delphy would like it to become. Like these two British women who was banned from working in a hospital in Exeter after she refused to hide her cross.

So yes, my original remark still stands. "Atheist theocracy" is a contradiction in terms. And atheism is NOT a religion.

Of course atheism is a religion. It's a belief in a material universe, where only what is measurable by our senses exists.

I am about to use a stereotype here, but are you American or currently living in the States?

I am a Pole and currently living in Poland.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
29 May 2013 #54
The constitution is from 1997 so not so early after the end of PRL

Doesn't really matter Lenka. Poland is in the Soviets-Poles clutches from the start. Germans and Czechs made a short work out of all them secret police and commie types but only Poland left then in the position of Power. No wonder Poland looks the way she looks.

Even Hungary is getting rid of those spidery snoopiest mafia types from the public life. As they are blocking a chance of any real development and grow for a country.They influence means strangulation.

If people want Sunday to be kept special, then why on earth aren't they demanding the shut down of all but absolutely essential services?

Well yes that would be my option.

What is your problem with Poland officially recognizing the right of freedom of religion to all? Why are you trying to deny it?

The problem is one you have a country as a secular one some shady types are bend on changing it into you Christin belongs in cellars and every attempt at bringing to light and implement Christan values in the public life is met with opposition of minorities.

It means that democracy (as a rule of majority) is rendered unless.
Also Greece is orthodox country, it doesn't mean that non religious types or other religions are persecuted and discriminated against (at lest in the classical meaning of those terms).

That is the reason I support to change Constitution and to state that Poland is a Christan country where Christan values would take a precedence over minorities ideas.

That would make me a real democrat and all those minorities lobbyists into enemies of democracy and justice.
Lenka 3 | 2,810
29 May 2013 #55
I just want to remind we had a referendum on Constitution so it's not like minority decided- Poles agreed to that act.
kondzior 12 | 1,242
29 May 2013 #56
My opinion: shops should decide on their own.

There is already ban on shops working during certain holidays. However, if you are shop owner, no one can stop you from openig it during such a holiday, as long as it is you yourself, and not your employees, who do all the working that day. I dont think it would be different on sundays, if that law pass.

I know a couple of small shop owners who would be very happy with all the hipermarkewts closed on Sunday.
Harry
29 May 2013 #57
delphiandomine: If people want Sunday to be kept special, then why on earth aren't they demanding the shut down of all but absolutely essential services?
Well yes that would be my option.

Interesting that you want to force people to follow your beliefs.

every attempt at bringing to light and implement Christan values in the public life is met with opposition of minorities.

Jesus had rather specific views on the wisdom of forcing one's beliefs on other people. But I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ.
Barney 15 | 1,476
29 May 2013 #58
I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ.

Care to elaborate on that rather exotic statement?
bledi_nowysacz 2 | 53
29 May 2013 #59
shop owners

How about other businesses ? Construction,transport? Do the employees have to go to work if the boss says so? What do you guys think? In my opinion: YES because as somebody here mentioned it before,everybody needs to eat, and food costs money. Even if you're living alone, not mentioning people who have kids,mortgages to pay etc.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
29 May 2013 #60
Of course atheism is a religion. It's a belief in a material universe, where only what is measurable by our senses exists.

So do you mean to say that belief = religion? This means any superstition or personal opinion is also automatically a religion - where would you stop?

Also: I am an atheist. I do not include a god or gods in my life. This does not in any way mean that I believe "in a material universe, where only what is measurable by our senses exists". Scientists (at least the really good ones) are fully aware of the limited nature of their knowledge. Nevertheless, some (or many) laws of nature can be observed, measured, compared. They do objectively exist, at least on the level that is visible to us. We could talk all day about the multiverse theory or the string theory etc. A lot remains undiscovered, and there is a huge area open for speculation, including mystical speculation, nevertheless, god(s) are created by people, not the other way round. I do not believe in a god any more than I believe in a strictly material universe. I feel no need to worship at any shrine. That is atheism.

I asked about America because from what I see Americans often tend to think that if you are an atheist it means you go to an atheist church where you recite the anti-Creed and share your non-belief with other unbelievers, a typical fallacy of those who know nothing about religion and nothing about science ;-)


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