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The ruling party in Poland tries to take American owned TV news station off the air


PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
18 Dec 2021 #421
@jon357
You think Biden cares about optics in Poland? Big corporations will love him for it, and the Republicans will demand action take place. There wont be a concession. He wont reward idiocy.

The visa waiver would be the place to start. Threaten that and Duda starts looking for knee pads to keep Biden happy. Losing the visa waiver would be the end of PiS simply because it is one of the biggest accomplishments Poles attribute to them. See it go away, or troops leave and its over.
jon357 74 | 22,054
18 Dec 2021 #422
You think Biden cares about optics in Poland?

He cares about the voters back home. Why would he bully Poland because a bill not yet signed into law means that one company has to sell a stake in something?

The visa waiver would be the place to start. Threaten

This is very very unlikely.
Lenka 5 | 3,470
18 Dec 2021 #423
See it go away, or troops leave and its over.

I doubt many people would care about the troops.
The visa waiver... a bit of a PR nightmare but I doubt it would finish PiS
PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
18 Dec 2021 #424
@jon357
A bill not signed is not yet vetoed either. Anyone thinking Poland can muscle Biden, is delusional. If Russia can't over Ukraine, Poland sure wont. But you can bet, Biden will lead the charge for a free media, after all, free media is always in his corner.

@Lenka
PiS is on the knifes edge as it is. A good ***** smack from the US and they are done.

If you haven't walked the streets in Poland lately, the US is still the dream for most Poles. If the US starts distancing themselves from Poland, every Pole with a dream will be talking about it. Dont under estimate the power of the threat.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,191
18 Dec 2021 #425
Losing the visa waiver would be the end of PiS

Most people don't care about it.

or troops leave and its over.

I don't know who cares about that but people do not really think that Amercians would defend Poland.

Duda starts looking for knee pads

Yes, that could be true. Politcians in Poland don't have a backbone. I hope that will change.
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
18 Dec 2021 #426
Anyone thinking Poland can muscle Biden

You thinking Biden isn't an old senior who should been in a nursing home...?

Anyone can wrestle him, why you think Putin is having his fun now? International comedy!

U.S istitutions, beurocracy, advisors, military branches however is a different story. As long as their reputation isn't at stake then Russia, Poland, Germany, China and Turkey can do as they please. His rhetoric only and the rhetoric of his ambassador to Poland's speech only shows he has lackeys repeating Democrats propaganda and can't be taken seriously, he and his closest advisors have no clue about eastern European affairs at all.

Basically the institutions can gain tremendesly high amounts of influence from being passive so that Biden and his closest to him will make every mistake possible, which will only lead to an increase of influence for the military-industrial complex, beurocratic connections and those involved in backing Biden's biggest democratic party competitors.

From Poland's perspective it's great cause Poland as a whole needs good relationship with the U.S administration regardless of party leadership.

Question is at what cost, Ukraine will most likely pay the price. How tho?
jon357 74 | 22,054
19 Dec 2021 #427
Poland can muscle Biden,

Nothing about 'muscling' since there's very little he can do without being seen as a bully, favouring minor corporate interests over the people.

There are more pressing issues in this region than an unsigned bill which could mean that one foreign company will have to eventually sell a stake in something.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,914
19 Dec 2021 #428
the US is still the dream for most Poles

It is for many.And I just don't understand why.
They could have as good a life in the UK or Germany and remain closer to home.
I love America, but it has it's problems too.
Lenka 5 | 3,470
19 Dec 2021 #429
the US is still the dream for most Poles

Most? No.
Not to mention that Visa waiver program is only making visiting a bit easier. Moving there still poses the same difficulties

in the UK

The UK is not that attractive destination now after Brexit.
It is even shown by the visas for drivers that were ignored on most part.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
19 Dec 2021 #430
@Cojestdocholery
Youre delusional to say most dont care about it. PiS cares about it, and everyone with family in the USA cares about it. Thats millions of people with just Chicago relatives alone.

@jon357
Biden will love being seen as a bully to Poland, he will get full Republican support, and if it means more military spending in another country he will get even more Republican support. You actually think the US gives a **** about how Poles think about them bullying PiS? When it comes to business, and a huge company in the US getting pushed around by a third world democracy, they will be bullies simply because they can.

Biden may be an old fool, but he will know when to take advantage of an international situation that is an easy win for him. And this bullying of Poland is an easy W for the old fool if Duda gives it to him. But I dont think Duda is going to sign it.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,914
19 Dec 2021 #431
The UK is not that attractive destination now after Brexit

I don't think that Brexit has made the UK less desirable at all.
It is still easier for Poles to .come here than the USA.

Biden may be an old fool

He is....
Lenka 5 | 3,470
19 Dec 2021 #432
I don't think that Brexit has made the UK less desirable at all.

Judging by the massive failure of the recent Visa program for delivery drivers I would definitely say so.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,914
19 Dec 2021 #433
Judging by the massive failure of the recent Visa program for delivery drivers

Poor choice Lenka, that never had a.chance of success.
Poles are.still coming here, but now.they.are.getting here because.of.their.skills.
No more cheap labour....
Alien 20 | 4,965
20 Dec 2021 #434
23000 Euro for a royal gardener is not very attractive. In Germany you would become at least 28000 as gardener.
Lenka 5 | 3,470
20 Dec 2021 #435
@ Milo

The point is there is less people wanting to come

Some Poles will always come but UK will definitely be less interesting place now. If it wasn't for the language I think UK would really struggle to attract Europeans
Miloslaw 19 | 4,914
20 Dec 2021 #436
@Lenka

Yeah, the language is a big pull factor.
jon357 74 | 22,054
20 Dec 2021 #437
Judging by the massive failure of the recent Visa program for delivery drivers I would definitely say so.

Plus, many of the early 2004 arrivals, especially those who were older when they came, are thinking about retiring home now. It's people with school/college age kids who'll stay, or the (relatively) few who have super duper jobs that will stay.

and a huge company in the US getting pushed around by a third world democracy, they will be bullies simply because they can.

The idea of any sort of sanctions because one business in a non-strategic field having to sell one of its investments is risible.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
20 Dec 2021 #438
@jon357
Actually jon media is a very strategic field for US propaganda. TVN is an example of American investments, and it is a big investment. What PiS is signaling is that Poland can not be trusted to invest in, Poland can not be regarded as a safe place for corporate investment. These a pillars of American business. You really do not understand how Americans see Europe as an investment.

I do not see Duda caving in though. He has to think strategically for himself at this point. Soon he will be out of office, and where is he going to get his money from if not the US in some way? He is a young man with a long time to live. Biting the hand that can feed you is not very sensible.
jon357 74 | 22,054
20 Dec 2021 #439
@PolAmKrakow
Yet they won't want to be seen to be trying to bully a European democracy for the benefit of one company who 'may' have to sell a stake in a company. And if they do try to exert pressure, it certainly won't be any sort of sanction that harms Polish individuals.

I also doubt that Duda needs anything personally from the US after his term of office.
OP mafketis 37 | 10,882
20 Dec 2021 #440
According to this aritcle Duda will defer his decision to the TK which will find it unconstitutional. The whole idea of voting on it was a distraction from the ever growing number of PiS scandals and a test to see if the opposition is on its toes or not...

msn.com/pl-pl/wiadomosci/polska/pis-ju%C5%BC-zna-decyzj%C4%99-dudy-ws-lex-tvn-wszystko-by%C5%82o-ustawione/ar-AARYUWi?cvid=2cd3f181de024e8a8562fe9b4668c935&ocid=winp1taskbar
PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
20 Dec 2021 #441
@jon357
You clearly do not understand American business or Politics. If you think for a second that Americans, or American business give a **** about Poland, or Polish politics you have never lived in America.

How much more will Amazon, Intel, and the other American companies invest in Poland if there is even a 1% chance some "legislation" could be made to force them to sell part of their companies? They will not only stop investing, they will pull money out to show PiS what the potential fallout is. Big business, sticks with big business.

Duda will need a place to lobby, or to help fund projects he becomes interested in after his presidency. Once PiS is done he wont be able to do much in Poland, and I doubt he has lined his pockets enough to live off the presidential pension.
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
21 Dec 2021 #442
@PolAmKrakow
And U.S.A isn't the navel of the world anymore which it was post-1991. That time has passed, U.S investments have proven to be politically troublesome to say the least. Militarily it's comforting until leadership decision with prioritizing Germany over Poland when in conflict with Russia is the biggest possible red flag the U.S political landscape could ever do in Polish-U.S relations. Thankfully for Poland it was done in ignorance and not in spirit of damning Poland to such levels like Prussian realpolitik of pre-partition times. So Poland should be fine, but major shifts in geopolitical strategy needs to be done and only the republican landscape can salvage it. South Korea will be an option, China, France (to a certain degree), Norway and Finland.

While U.S is a strong ally and good to have, the recent crisis has put doubts upon it. Political plans and relations cannot be built on doubts. It would be careless, U.S business firms and their need for investments will easily be disregarded if Poland's sovereignty is at stake.

I don't think U.S would give two hoots about a Polish company investing in the U.S if China was massing up hundreds of thousands soldiers at her mexican border
jon357 74 | 22,054
21 Dec 2021 #443
@PolAmKrakow
The thing is, the government there do give quite a lot of ***** about key allies; the idea of sanctions because of minor issues affecting individual businesses is risible. Sanctions for unauthorised nuclear programmes or poisoning spies, maybe. For one company who may have to sell a stake in a business at market price; not a chance.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
21 Dec 2021 #444
@jon357
Again Jon you dont understand. Sitting and watching the news in USA, and talking to people, it is news here and there is sentiment growing about Poland not being business friendly. Many of my colleagues in the US do business in Poland or have looked at Poland and other EU countries for investment. With rising taxes, and this unfriendly treatment they will likely not invest in Poland, one actually just made a sizeable multimillion investment in Ukraine over Poland even with the Russia factor.

Poland is not a key ally to the US. Poland is simply a border to Russian influence and if it failed, they the US just rolls back to Germany. Its really not a big deal any more. Its not 1945. Poland and Poles "think" they are important, they desperately want to believe they are important, and central to the world political stage when in fact, they just are not that important and they contribute very little to the world. I know Poles dont want to hear it, just like PiS doesnt recognize it.

Say what you want about the US. When the world needs the military it is the first call they make. Doesnt matter if Biden is in office or anyone else. If Russia flex's her muscles with Poland through Belarus, I will bet a delayed response from the US or a missed phone call is already planned. In the end Poland needs to remember US money and military are still what protects most of the world. Thats just a fact.
jon357 74 | 22,054
21 Dec 2021 #445
@PolAmKrakow
There still won't be sanctions. The issue simply isn't important enough.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
21 Dec 2021 #446
@jon357
The only way there will not be sanctions is if Duda vetoes or the court says it is unconstitutional. Under the last Democratic President sanctions were given to other allies in order to show them who has the muscle. Mexico and Canada both learned that even a shared border means nothing if they attempt to squeeze US business interests. China and its steel industry learned pretty quickly as well. Trump imposed a wine tax on France when he got a little upset with them, and Biden became a French wine hero when he repealed the tax in March.

Please tell me what the US needs Poland for exactly. Pottery? Vodka? What valuable export cant the US live without? Then tell me what Poland needs the US for and US companies for, and lets do a balance sheet of power.
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
21 Dec 2021 #447
@jon357
This is like telling a merchant that money isn't everything. Impossible in other words
jon357 74 | 22,054
21 Dec 2021 #448
@PolAmKrakow
There won't be sanctions, especially an end to the visa waiver scheme, as you sugggested.

It isn't unusual for democratic (and other states) to make political decisions that a particular foreign company dislikes. If the act is signed into law, one company will have to sell a stake in something at market price They'll survive.

Pottery? Vodka?

The yanks can put as many tariffs on those as they like. Nobody will notice.

America doesn't call the shots in Europe.

@Oathbreaker
Money (in the sense of capital) is the world's greatest evil. It's killed far more people than all wars put together.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 970
21 Dec 2021 #449
@jon357
It is obvious you have never lived in the US. I would bet a very large sum that if its signed into law by Duda it will take less than 30 days for retaliation in the form of tariffs, or taxes on US companies doing business or investing in Poland to discourage that business or investment, or pull out of troops.

The current US administration does not respect Poland, and the Polish government who did not recognize the legitimacy of the elections when everyone else did. PiS hitched on to Trump and it will hurt them until they are out of power. Revenge will be had. There is no US president in history, regardless of party that would put up with the PiS clowns or their actions.

And in case you have not really done your research, the companies that are in line to bid on this "business" are state owned or state controlled. Like Orlen buying all the news papers, this is another attempt to consolidate media. And in case you are not well versed, part of the US Constitution is the protection of Free Speech, and every President in history, regardless of party, has and will continue to protect that right both domestically and abroad.

So, if Duda is dumb enough to sign it, I will PM you with a significant wager on retaliation taking place within 30 days. But I dont think even Duda is this dumb.
Oathbreaker 4 | 418
22 Dec 2021 #450
Money (in the sense of capital) is the world's greatest evil. It's killed far more people than all wars put together.

Definitively not, followers of evil, those who idolize things above God, good and cave in to temptations, selling their soul for the purpose of feeling better then others and willing to ruin themselves in the pursuit of ruining others instead of building them up.

Money is a technology, that made it easier to transport heavy metals such as gold in the past by simply having aknowledged paper pieces or cheaper (less valued/wanted metals) to symbolise/represent gold as currency cause of their lighter weight and to combat trickery and risk of losing amounts of gold. (Easier to protect huge piles of gold you don't need to move then transport it all the time)

It's when trust in your neighbour and fellowman gets distorted and goals of plundering each other instead of co-operation in building a common future which can be agreed upon between another ruins society as a whole.

In the modern age, there is a huge competition about ones place in society. Pursuing status, wealth, fame, popularity to increase ones chances within the male/female dynamics and increasing ones acess to highest possible quality of nourishment or wants.

Which is a stark contrast to the world of pre-american revolution where ones position in society was already decided upon birth, relatively secure and unaccessable for people outside of said group.

The more ambitious merchantile middle class within american and french societies, who based their lifestyle, income on trade, communication and urban life came to dominate the political landscape and way of thinking as industrial production became more and more tied with military conflicts and more people with acess to weaponry became a larger force to be reckoned with.

Due to the new levels of organisations within societies the political elites were unable to procure the sole guarantee of stability and peace within the country. Relationship with the population became more important and the factions within a country who could provide the best possible benefits to the largest possible extent became a much larger force to be reckoned with then factions who focused on advising the head of state.

Which is why among other reasons a more democratical approach is needed nowadays with easily replaced roles within the top positions.

It's not only a tool to combat corruption, but also builds upon the idea of anyone being allowed theoretically to become a head of state without having to be tied a certain genepool or family dynasty but, with enough support thanks to wealth and good communication.

The system that is set up nowadays makes it easier for certain factions who specialize in said abilities to have a larger acess to material wealth and the picking of potential mates.

It has also made it more volatile and chaotic, leading to larger extents of conflicts (ww1, ww2) cause of any form of blame game having larger consequences. (Race, agenda, despised factions, tyrants, take your pick/cause/explenation)

Simply saying money is evil, is a simplification of the said reality. It's like saying that rape is caused by the attractivenes of women, so women are the reason for rapes happening.

The people performing evil to obtain money illegally should be held accountable, just as rapists for raping.


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