Premier says no recession for Poland

It tells us that, whatever problems other countries are having: 'wages in Poland are a fifth of those in Denmark, a third of those in Germany and a half that of the Spanish'.

Which isn't a happy situation to be in.

Depends if you think that pure numbers matter when calculating quality of life and so on. I was reading only a few hours ago about how single-wage families in Norway struggle to pay for the costs of living.


Comparing Poland (economically ruined in 1990) to Germany, Denmark and Spain doesn't seem like a fair comparison anyway. Wages in Poland are significantly higher than in Ukraine or Belarus, does it really mean anything?

They do. And most likely those Norwegians would be comfortably off by Polish standards. If I were you I'd stop reading stuff on the internet and take a good look at the country you happen to be living in.


Living standards in Western countries are what Poles aspire to, and why shouldn't they? German industry was completely destroyed during WW2, but West Germany was outperforming the UK economically by the nineteen-sixties.

They would be very well off were they to earn a Norwegian salary in Poland. But they don't, they have to pay Norwegian prices (and taxation). At the end of the day, a family struggling to afford childcare isn't well off regardless if they're in Norway or Poland.


And they're doing a bloody good job of catching up. The vast amount of Germans employed on a "minijob" basis is scandalous.


Not much of a surprise, given the welfare state and mass nationalisation of post-WW2.

They are well off by Polish standards whether they happen to live in Norway or Poland. There is no family allowance in Poland, for example. But as you obviously prefer to believe the fantasy version of life in Poland you have read about on the internet to the somewhat (by Western norms) harsh reality, I won't make any further attempts to shatter your illusions.

Which is very good - it discourages breeding for the sake of breeding.


The thing is that Poland can't be compared to "Western norms" because Poland didn't start in the same position. For me, the most sensible comparison is to the other Visegrad countries. Slovakia is doing somewhat well because of how Bratislava has boomed, the Czechs 20 years on are still stagnating and the Hungarians have recently fallen behind Poland.

For what it's worth, in terms of ordinary life, I'd much rather live in Poland than some parts of the ex-DDR.

That's quite interesting because a lot of Poles are now 'colonising' the former DDR. The houses in the German villages close to Szczecin are being bought up by Szczecinianins. I'm thinking of moving there myself.

If it was easier to live in Poland than Germany then the population flow would be in the other direction.

Yep, same story in Gorlitz. I saw a beautiful old kamenica on the border (on the German side) that had nothing but Polish names on the door - flats are available for a ridiculously cheap price there and unlike Germans, Poles can find work in Poland. There's a lot to be said for Germans living in employment blackspots that can't be bothered to learn the Czech/Polish languages in order to find employment.

Having said that, I met one chap in Slubice who learnt Polish and opened a cafe in Poland because it made sense economically. He could benefit from some very nice social provisions in Germany and yet legally run a business in Poland - and the combined income gave him a very comfortable lifestyle.


That isn't quite accurate. If it wasn't for the ex-DDR in the border areas being absolutely dead and with a shocking economy, Germans would be living there and pushing the prices of flats beyond the reach of Poles. I know quite a few Poles living in Frankfurt (Oder) who take advantage of some very comfortable terms and conditions there in relation to subsidised rents, heating and utilities.

There may be a lot to be said for your learning Urdu and applying for a job as a street sweeper in Pakistan. But most likely you wouldn't go for it as the pay's crap.

You don't seem to have grasped the idea that people generally look for work in richer rather than poorer countries.

There's nothing to be said for it, because I don't live anywhere near Pakistan and nor do I live in an unemployment blackspot close to an international border. If I lived in Szczecin, I'd learn German because it would be senseless not to.


Working for less money than in your own country is a far better option than being unemployed in my opinion. There are a lack of Polish speaking Germans as it is.

What land exactly? And where is "here"? When I go from Kielce to the countryside to visit my grandma I see cows, horses and sometimes goats grazing on "empty grassland". The same is in my grandma's village. Every family owns a meadow or two and they leave their cows, horses, etc. to graze there for most of the day, then they bring them back to the stables before the evening starts (except in winter, late autumn and early spring obviously).

It's a common view in the countryside.
So what kind of "empty grassland" do you mean?
Is this land situated next to people's houses, their fields or sth that you think it should be used in some way?


Thank you, kind sir :)


Well, doesn't it mean something if Ukrainians and Belarusians are coming to Poland to work and not the other way around?

portalprocesowy.pl/en/wp-publications/art42,long-term-employment-of-russian-ukrainian-and-belarusian-citizens-in-poland.html

Just wondering: how is that even possible given the fact that both countries are outside the EU? I thought EU citizens have to be given preferential treatment when it comes to hiring.

Um... It looks like it's explained in the link you posted...?


As babysitters, cleaning ladies, care takers and working in the fields in the countryside? I can already see all those EU citizens lining up for such work in Poland... lol

as for this statement, i believe to Tusk.

Polish respond to global crisis is often mentioned on Serbian economic universities, as an example of successful economic policy in extreme conditions. Serbian PM Ivica Dacic nicely sum it up in a comment to the Polish PM Tusk during their last meeting in June this year...


Source: b92

Not when you get more money being unemployed in your own country.


I know a manager of a call centre in Szczecin. German call centre work is outsourced to Poland. Because Germans won't work for 500 Euro a month. I don't blame them. I wouldn't either.

The smart play the system and collect from both countries, but the intelligent see the opportunity. Only the stupid would prefer to stay unemployed.


They won't work for 500 euro a month?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but do you know what a minijob is?

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324682204578512782697519080.html


Germany, unbelievably, also doesn't have a minimum wage.

Under EU laws, people from countries outside the union only get a working permit under very special conditions. The link doesn't explain that completely.


What about the Polish EU citizens? Shouldn't they lign up for those jobs?

I think many of those Ukrainians and Belarusians may have the Karta Polaka that allows them free access to the Polish labour market. I know a few Ukrainians from L'viv that have it.


Nope, doesn't pay well enough and is hard work.

I'm astonished that the folks in Brussels are okay with that.

Actually, it's not quite as astonishing as it seems - the Karta Polaka basically provides a way for people of Polish descent to obtain most of the benefits of Polish citizenship without becoming EU citizens. It's actually a better deal for the EU - Poland allows her people to access the fatherland, but at the same time, it stops them from accessing the rest of the EU.

I think the Karta Polaka also exists to help people who might be punished for having a second citizenship, especially in places like Belarus.

if animals are grazing on it then it's not empty :)

Dunno, for me it looks like everything is explained in that link.


Oh, I'm sure they do, but in the West, where payment is higher and the locals aren't too eager to do those jobs :)


Well then I'm not sure what you're talking about and my questions still stand:

Great. I'd just love to be able to live in Germany and try to sell double-glazing in Poland for five-hundred Euros a month. Where do I sign up?

Poland, South East & East, tons and ton of empty land not being utilized. CMS had a good post about it earlier in the thread.


We'd all love that.

Thanks.


What does that mean?

Btw, did you get round to answering the question I asked you a few days ago, or are you still pondering the answer?

The fact remains that there are plenty of Germans working for less than 500 Euro a month. Berlin in particular is a hotbed of such "minijobs".

Now, bearing in mind that the basic costs of living are higher there (food, public transport, etc) - who is really poorer, the 500 Euro salesman in Poland or the 450 Euro minijob worker in Germany?

And to make matters worse, the 500 Euro worker in Poland has (possibly, if their employer hasn't forced them to be self employed like some unscrupulous bastards do) some pension payments made and full social protection. Minijob workers? Forget about it.

OK, Delphi, I give up. You are right as always. So many people moving from Poland to the west, and so few the other direction. How wise you are, and what fools others must be.

I live in Lesser Poland and I don't get it what you mean by those "tons and ton of empty land not being utilized"?

Are those lands around villages, fields? Or you just drive a road from place A to place B, you see grass and you think "empty land not being utilized"?

Is all land in other countries which is not cities and forests covered in fields utilized by farmers?
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean o_O


About what? He just writes that you can't make a big business out of a small farm. And there's plenty of such small "family" farms in Poland.


Then why don't you all just move to Germany? lol

One in five Germans works in a job where you aren't entitled to full social welfare payments, where pension contributions are lower and where you can only earn a figure slightly higher than the Polish minimum wage. The country has no minimum wage, and young people are routinely exploited with "minijob" contracts.

Doesn't sound like utopia to me. Sounds rather like hell, especially with the rising rents in Berlin and the widespread usage of Minijobs there.


I've always thought that these small farms are an utter disaster. Poland is a big food exporter as it is - but imagine Poland's potential were the farming industry to be run like the French system?

Yes, it's hell. Poles should stop complaining and thank their lucky stars they don't live in the west. Why no-one else seems to have come to the same conclusion as yourself is a complete mystery to me. Perhaps these fools should spend more time on Polish Forums and less in the real world, and then they would come to a similar conclusion as yourself.