Premier says no recession for Poland

Why should they need to compare themselves to others? Comparing themselves to their peers makes sense, but that's it.


You don't have to be academic to develop yourself.


Incredibly rare to become gifted without putting in many long hours. I remember reading about David Beckham's childhood - to get to where he is, he would spend hours upon hours in the park until well after dark just trying corners and free kicks.


Except they aren't.

Imagine how rich Poland would be if all that undeclared income was declared? There would be no need to speculate about Tusk's words - Poland would be nowhere near a recession.

Are Polish experts satisfy with Polish investments in other countries?

I'm sure Poles on this forum will feel reassured to learn that you regard the likes of Bangladesh as their 'peers' rather than the U.K..


Therefore, if I happen to be richer than you, that also makes me 'better' than you. Nice to know. Or were you only attempting to make a comparison between yourself and 'third-world' Poles?

I never said that. You might want to stop twisting my words, given that the moderators on here have a dim view of people who do that.

Their peers are their fellow Poles living in Poland, no-one else.


People who get paid more tend to have a higher value to society than those that earn less. You can replace the man who sells tickets, but you can't replace Gareth Bale.

I haven't 'twisted your words'. Your stock reply to anyone comparing Polish poverty with that of the UK is to state that Poles should be comparing themselves with those living in, for example, Bangladesh. It's a point you've made on a number of occasions.


Cool. :)

Poles are wealthy compared to those, sure. But if they want to compare themselves in terms of success, they should be looking at their peers to see what was achievable.

What you seem to miss is that in terms of poverty, Poles aren't poor at all. But when they look at themselves, they should be looking at their peers to see what they could have achieved. Trying to blame Communism is a joke - there are plenty of successful people nowadays who aren't tainted with Communism. You're just repeating the age-old PiS talk, nothing more.

Delph ask yourself what kind of life that is for anybody. Don't forget they are also doing it for a lower price than their British counterparts. What about a right to a family life?

It's pretty standard in America to go on the road for that sort of time, if not longer. If it's the way that the industry is evolving (being there to meet the customer) - then so be it.

As for right to a family life, there are plenty of professions where you don't really see much of your family for various reasons. Never bought that one personally - if you want a family life, choose a career that has you in your own house by a certain time.

I like my family life, so I chose one that means I spend very little time at work - sure, I'll never be a millionaire this way, but it works for me.

You're right about the money issue - certainly in trucking, it would have made a lot of sense for there to be a requirement for workers to be paid the minimum wage of the country that they are driving in.

Delph, I think you're simplifying things just as szczecinianin is with those "communist big-wigs".



I agree to some degree with szczecinianin and Toro, delph... As much as I like you and the fact that you defend Poland and Poles from time to time on this forum, there's some truth to what they write, in my humble opinion of a Pole living in Poland (and who lived through the transformation period, not just read about it) ;)



Delph, you have no idea about those people. Whether they were "content" about anything (who were the members of Solidarity? Who was Lech Wałęsa? Who supported Solidarity?). And what they're "crying and whining" about and whether they're doing it at all.

There is some truth to what you write but at the same time you're very judgemental and, I don't know, you seem not to have much idea about life in Poland if that makes any sense...

Also, in my opinion Szczecinianin is right in a way about another thing too - you probably know how many years a Pole would have to study to become a teacher of your language... And you're a native speaker of English... Nobody will embrace great numbers of Poles in other countries so they could teach Polish to people all around the world lol So native speakers of English are lucky in a way. You got lucky. I'm sure it was also your hard work and talent that was important too. However, I think you should get off your high horse a little :P

Of course, there were plenty of people that couldn't - they were wrecked with illness (for instance, I read about how one shipyard didn't even have gloves for the workers at one point with the inevitable injuries), they had major family commitments that stopped them from doing things, and so on. But I'm explicitly talking about those who were in fine health and had no real commitments of their own - these people now in their early/mid 50's had a great position in life, not least because they lived in a time when careers were made.

Look at Jaroslaw Kaczynski - an utter nobody, but he made sure that when the system changed, he was in the right place at the right time. Even Donald Tusk spent a considerable part of the 80's doing something utterly crap - yet he made sure that he was there when it mattered.


The problem is that people like "szczecinianin" directly contribute to the problems that we're talking about.


The ones who are now demanding that the government gives them this, that and that? I know enough about them to know the reality - that many of them suffer because of their own choices. Should Babcia who worked as a secretary in the police before taking ridiculously early retirement really have a comfortable life in retirement like she may have enjoyed in the PRL with her military status? Of course not. Likewise with the police - if they retire after 15 years, they really don't deserve to have 50 years of retirement paid for by me and you.


I'm judgemental towards those that cry and whine, yes - I cannot stand people who expect the Government to pay for them or to provide opportunities on a plate. I remember going to work in -15c in my first winter here and really suffering because of it - I had never experienced such temperatures and it would've made much more sense to stay at home in my view. Or I remember last year, going to two very important meetings despite being really sick - I had no choice, if I didn't go, then I would've been worse off today because of it.

As I keep saying - the Communist mentality destroyed a lot of people in the head. They had a somewhat mundane, predictable life - one that allowed them to be incompetent without fear of reprisal as long as they kept their mouth shut. These people lost their way badly in the new Poland, not least because society was no longer willing to accept it. And these are the people I talk about- the ones that had no excuse for their failings today apart from their own inability.

Well. it's a bit of both, isn't it. Some people got successful honestly, through hard work, and others dishonestly, through contacts and corruption. There are good and bad rich and poor people. It's facile to suggest otherwise,

No-one ever said that poor people were bad people, only that if they complain about the situation, then they should start by looking at themselves.


I just saw this, sorry :)

In my very humble opinion, I have a lot of respect for Polish teachers that can teach a foreign language properly. I think it's absolutely criminal that schools pay them less, not least because the vast majority of "native speakers" are utter jokers.

so listen

with or without recension, Poland consolidate, its obvious. i hope Poland may manage to stretch Her power from Baltic to the Balkan and Black see and bring hope for all who seek peace in this corner of the world (even globally). Strong Poland for new Commonwealth! Serbians with Poland!

Crow, do you have any figures for the amount of exports to Serbia from Poland and imports from Serbia?

no, not now. Nor about trade exchange, nor about investments. One can simple note mega-trends. Few years ago Poland just started to coming to this market and then retreated, while Germany, Italy, Sweden, France (speaking of European players) coming with massive investments. Then, Russia invest a lot of, as well as China. USA and Israel, too. Saudia Arabia coming with great steps.

Investments brings influence. Lack of Polish investments here telling much that Poland hesitate to come back in the region where are her old and traditional vital interests.

But well, better for Poland to hesitate if not ready for big game, then to be punished while still weak. Not to mention that Serbia still recuperate and tries to balance and digest all those influences. We would like bigger Polish, Czech, Lithuanian and Slovak investments but, we can`t afford to ourselves to select investors now and to refuse offers from powerful players. Hopefully, time would come

I'm not going to discuss personal life of members. I think you both should stop making it so personal.

You see? I think it's the communist system and mentality that created this inability in many people. Of course not in all of them. For some people it's just their nature, character, upbringing, the conditions they grew up in or whatever. But still...

Many people in Poland earn little, probably peanuts in comparison to Western countries (there wouldn't be so many Poles emigrating to the West if it wasn't the case and I've read and heard so many times about higher wages in the West).

Also they don't lie about their income, they don't get any illegal income or whatever either.


That's nothing unusual, it's a norm. People are afraid of getting sick and if they do get sick they go to work anyway and make others sick. Because noone wants to loose their jobs. My mum told me about a woman she knows who has osteoporosis and she broke her both legs. Her boss called her and told her that if she doesn't come back right now she'll get fired. How is she supposed to do that? I think she's over 50, how is she supposed to find work if she gets fired?


The 90's in Poland were a bit like Wild Wild West, people who had the right mindset for those times made it (and yes, people who were sleazy scumballs in the times of PRL could have easily made it in the 90's too). But I don't think those were great numbers of people. I think many got screwed in a way, because all those workers who fought in the ranks of Solidarity, for example from the Gdańsk shipyard, lost their jobs. Plenty of state owned firms, factories either collapsed entirely or had to fire a lot of people. I remember those times, delph. Those were hard times. $hitty times for many people.

Sometimes life is simply hard. People get born where they get born, in the times they didn't choose and they work their asses off and often they don't have really that much influence on what will happen to them. The 90's in Russia were worse than in Poland. Yes, some oligarchs got insanely rich then, but majority of people got very poor. Humiliatingly so, from what I've been told by Russians who lived through those times. So I can't really blame people who are bitter.

That's not their fault they grew up in a system that didn't prepare them in any way for what was coming.
Sometimes life is simply a b*tch. And then you die ;)

And about careers to be made. Not everybody can make a "career". Someone has to do those mundane jobs, work in factories, etc. so others could make ridiculously big money for "managing" them ;) That's how it is all around the world. And the poorer the country the more the lives of those who do those mundane jobs suck. That's a fact of life. I wouldn't tell off someone who complains about life if he's/she's a factory worker in Poland or a brick maker in India, etc. That would be arrogant, in my opinion. Some people have harder lives than you and me. And they have reasons to complain. That's a human thing.


I disagree. It's not that simple, delph, imho.

Fair enough. 'We all live and learn' as they say (including Poles).

And btw, I really like your posts. We all need to be criticized and to accept criticism - hopefully it will help us to grow as people.

Very true. I think many Poles could use some learning too. I've learned from Russians :)

Many people were simply cheated, simple as that, it has nothing with communist or other mindset, that is BS. People were told rubbish and those in power were just getting rich on common assets. Meaning there were no equal start for everyone and rules were to favoured those in power or those with connections or those who were willing to compromise their integrity for money.

Saying that people should make it or blame themselves - its childish - some yes but not the majority.
delphaindomine is full of such ideas and misconceptions.

Yea I hate that mentality of Neo-Liberal mindset; how they are so tough and made it on their own, went to school bare foot, never ask for help from anyone bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

Here's one of the Irish BS brigade barking. Funny thing is, he owes millions now to the banks and we the tax payers have to pay for the self made hero of the universe.

youtube.com/watch?v=EmJNL1BmukU

I'm not an expert on this guy. Funnily enough, I am of the 'neo-liberal mindset' myself. I empathise with some of what he is saying.

The point is though, present-day Poles, unlike the Brits and the Irish, haven't had it easy. That's exactly why so many of them have gone to Britain and Ireland to live and work.

Personally, I, unlike my parents, have had it 'easy'. I can, however, empathise with those who have not, and do not look down on those worse off than myself, unless, of course, they have made no effort whatsoever to improve their lives.

Imho, most Poles are no lazier than Brits or Irish, but have a far lower standard of living through no particular fault of their own.

Farming 101:

Grassland = grass and hay
Grass and hay = food for cows and other ruminants.

Cows + grass = milk!
Wintertime: Cows + hay = milk!

JanK lol


JanK is right, that "empty grassland" is usually used as pastures for cows, horses, etc.

Great tip, you're a smart one.......
Obviously you don't live here and see that the land isn't being used for that.


Have a wonderful day.

re the unused land, I understand the logic of "grass + cow" = milk but reducing this debate to "Apprentice" type language is ridiculous. Cow needs human labor or expensive EU standard machine to make milk drinkable. Both of these have big opportunity costs.

I have a small farm which is really just my holiday home - the profit per hectare to farm it is about PLN 4000 if you are lucky but more like PLN 2500 if you have a few things go wrong - weather, changes in market, crop disease etc. (by the way the last time I bothered to do these sums was 2 years ago). So I just don't bother, in fact I let neighboring guys farm it in an unspoken bargain that they will keep an eye on my place and some is fallow.

So if you are a small farmer with 10 hectares you can make 25000 zloty profit - about the average factory wage in Poland. Working in a factory is more stable, more lie-ins at the weekend, you have easier access to credit so can buy a car, computer, new telly etc.

I actually think long term lots of it will come back into production if food prices rise. If you could get it up to say 6.000 per hectare it starts to pay to employ people to do it.

I can't see food prices going up enough for farmers' incomes to more than double. The former leaders of PZPR can tell you what Poles do when food prices double.

Personally I'd say that Polish agriculture isn't going to change that much for at least a generation (but will be slowly moving towards modern 'agri-business' over than time).

We will see - if they abolish KRUS, then things will change dramatically overnight as it simply becomes unviable for small uneconomic farms to exist.

Farming will change imo, but through a series of developments. First will be the reduction in smaller farms as viable active farmers - the medium farms getting bigger. Any big changes to Krus will be a second trigger for this, as it is already happening due to EU policy. The Second big change will come when the EU gravy train runs dry, which it one day surely will. Then the small farms (by that I mean those that grow food to eat and feed livestock) will have little or no cash input without alternative work. Some of the medium and big farms (heavily in debt) will go bust. Big business will then buy up most of the remaining farms and industrialize. Whether you think that is good for Poland or not is a matter of opinion I guess. It will certainly change the nature of the Polish countryside.

This might be interesting. Apparently wages in Poland are a fifth of those in Denmark, a third of those in Germany and a half that of the Spanish:

Poles work like oxen , and what they have? Earn outrageously low compared to citizens of other European Union countries. According to official data , the average salary he receives for his work Pole is about 2669 gold on hand. But this average is skewed by earnings lavishly remunerated officers, directors and CEOs . Poles really earn much less.

Which doesn't tell us very much, given the mess of the Spanish property market and the unemployment situation, the crippling taxation in Denmark (have you seen the taxes on new cars?) and the fact that the Germans can't even build an airport.