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Poland's post-election political scene


jon357 66 | 16,977
16 Dec 2015 #241
PiS are now below the 30% mark that normally turns out for PiS regardless. It's pretty clear that PiS are on a downwards trend

A downward spiral, fast and moving faster by the day.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 Dec 2015 #242
Quite astonishing really for a government to lose what, around 25% of their support in just over a month?

I wonder how much longer PIS will attempt to demonise anybody who dares to think that the 18%-regime shouldn't be able to ignore laws and the constitution whenever it wants

I'm waiting for them to attempt to ban the marches next. They're already talking online about doing so, and I absolutely hope they try.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Dec 2015 #243
Latest poll from IBRIS

The Nazis were first regarded as a bunch of beerhall thugs. They did poorly in the first elections, but by and by, making ample use of bombastic demogoguery backed by Goebbels' 100-fold-repeated lies, and bingo!

The outrageous Michnik-Petru lies and scare tactics about totalitarianism just round the corner are working for them just as they did for Hitler-Goebbels. To be successful propaganda need not be truthful, it need only be persuasive and effective!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 Dec 2015 #244
I wonder if it's an offence to compare someone to a Nazi.

Harry, any idea?

Polonius abusing Petru is no surprise, though.
Roger5 1 | 1,458
16 Dec 2015 #245
The plain fact is that although PiS won the election fairly by the same rules that applied to other parties, the rhetoric employed by its leader implying that those who oppose PiS are the enemy within are sinister, and also absurd given that the vast majority of eligible voters did not vote for PiS. Polonius's repeated analogies with Nazism are distasteful in the extreme.
Harry
16 Dec 2015 #246
I wonder if it's an offence to compare someone to a Nazi.

It's not necessarily a criminal offence. However, it is a civil offence, as The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski is finding out following his comments about 'the worst kind of Poles'. And in our country that is actually quite good: that cat Duda can pardon people who have committed crimes but he can't excuse people who have committed civil offences.

They're already talking online about doing so, and I absolutely hope they try.

I really hope they try (and succeed), that'll certainly swell the numbers significantly.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Dec 2015 #247
analogies with Nazism

Only the tactics are comaprable. If some obscure American governor from the 1960s were mentioned hardly anybody would get the point. The ascent to popularity and prominence from near-oblivion of Petru and Hitler are similar, which does not mean the bankster is planning to build death camps.
Harry
16 Dec 2015 #248
Petru and Hitler are similar

Please do keep trying to link those two: nothing shows better the desperation and fear of PISites right now.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 Dec 2015 #249
No-one is buying it. Even the core PiS support is dropping away, which is fantastic.

In other news, did anyone notice that Kukiz's political grouping is already breaking up? The Ruch Narodowy lot are breaking away from Kukiz, as he isn't doing what they expect him to do.
Harry
16 Dec 2015 #250
did anyone notice that Kukiz's political grouping is already breaking up?

I've not seen that, got any links?

The Ruch Narodowy lot are breaking away from Kukiz, as he isn't doing what they expect him to do.

I really hope The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski tries to get them to join his 18%-regime!
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Dec 2015 #251
Did anyone hear of Petru a year ago? Even six months ago? Such meteoric rise from oblivion to prominence only takes place under exceptional conditions. Michnik-Petru lies and scare tactics about totalitarianism just round the corner are the kind of tactics used by power-greedy dictators. At times they have succeeded.

more demonstrations planned

Looks as though you're hoping for a for a Polish Majdan comopelte with bloodshed which you can watch on the telly in comfort and safety of your flat. But remember, the Majdan started when Russian snipers began taking potshots at peaceful demonstrators. Shiny bald pates make ideal sniper targets.
Roger5 1 | 1,458
16 Dec 2015 #252
Well, the sun is far over the yardarm.
Harry
16 Dec 2015 #253
Polish Majdan

If that is what is needed to make the 18% regime respect the rule of law and the Polish constitution, that is what we must have.

you're hoping for ... bloodshed

The only people who have been posting here about their hopes for bloodshed are the PISites. I'd just like the rule of law and the Polish constitution to be respected; hopefully there is nobody who feels so strongly that the party named 'Law & Justice' and The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski are so far above the rule of law and the Polish constitution that blood needs to be spilt.

which you can watch on the telly in comfort and safety of your flat.

It would be a bit tricky for me to watch anything on television in my flat, seeing as I don't have a television in my flat (although you think I should pay tax on the television I don't have). And it would be a bit difficult for me to do anything in my flat when I'm out at demonstrations. But I understand that there are certain people who do manage to claim to be in a certain place when historical record shows that they were in reality somewhere else at the exact same time; perhaps you could explain how to be in two places at the same time?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 Dec 2015 #254
If that is what is needed to make the 18% regime respect the rule of law and the Polish constitution, that is what we must have.

Indeed. And I'll be there if it happens.

the party named 'Law & Justice' and The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski are so far above the rule of law and the Polish constitution that blood needs to be spilt.

Elements of PiS have already been making it very clear that they regard such demonstrations as being unlawful and that they should be stopped. Quite scary that they support PRL-type solutions, isn't it?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Dec 2015 #255
PiS wo

PiS have won back the No. 1 slot according to an Ibris poll published by Rzepa:
PiS 30
Petru 25
PO 15
ZL 7
PSL 6
Kukiz 5

PiS

Following a drop in support when Petru's Nowoczesna briefly eclipsed PiS, Poland's ruling party now appears to be inching its way back up. The latest Millward Brown poll showed:

PiS 33
Petru 28
PO 14
Kukiz 6.
No other party would have made it into the Sejm.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
17 Dec 2015 #256
Very encouraging results - PO+Nowoczesna on 42% combined is great news.
Borsukrates 5 | 131
18 Dec 2015 #257
To be fair I think .Nowoczesna's popularity comes in part from NOT having ties with PO. Petru & Co are happy to criticize PO as well, giving an impression of objectivity. .Nowoczesna would lose popularity if it allied with PO. If they keep up their integrity, they're not going to need PO.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
18 Dec 2015 #258
Nowoczesna's popularity

Is a big nothing. They (or rather... he !) haven't said anything about any controversial issue yet.

Muslim refugees ? 500 PLN per child ? Raising tax free income ? Tax on banks and retail chains ? Yes/No/No/No and they are down to 8%.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Dec 2015 #259
Muslim refugees ? 500 PLN per child ? Raising tax free income ? Tax on banks and retail chains ?

First one is a non-issue, second and third can be destroyed with simply pointing out how PiS is relying on borrowing money to pay for these promises and the fourth can easily be dealt with by pointing out how this tax is destroying the ordinary Pole.

For what it's worth, PiS have been in government for over a month now and they haven't dealt with a single one of those issues yet, despite saying that they were a "priority".
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
18 Dec 2015 #260
First one is a non-issue

Your cluelessnes is unlimited.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Dec 2015 #261
Tell us why Nowoczesna should in fact say anything about the issue? It's not worth getting into - there are far more important things to worry about, such as PiS taking on as much debt as possible while destroying the independent civil service. Oh, and the fact that PiS are appointing a considerable amount of former PZPR appratchiks to senior positions...

Polish voters don't want refugees here. Okay, end of story. It's not worth fighting over.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Dec 2015 #262
PiS have been in government for over a month now

..and they have not been given a moment of peace to calmly analyse, prepare, plan... The foaming-at-the-mouth opposition are doing everything possible to disrupt, confuse, undermine and sow general mayhem. Excellent climate to create legislation in?!

former PZPR appratchiks

PO have brought 30 former Katyń conspirators into the Sejm!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Dec 2015 #263
..and they have not been given a moment of peace to calmly analyse, prepare, plan...

Excuses. They have a majority in the Sejm and Senat, as well as the Presidency.

The reality is that PiS are causing all this trouble with the TK because it deflects from their inability to actually get things done. Nevermind, ex-PZPR personal friends of Jarosław all have good jobs now!
mafketis 24 | 9,361
18 Dec 2015 #264
..and they have not been given a moment of peace to calmly analyse, prepare, plan..

Enitrely their own fault for picking a fight over the TK when none was needed. Accept three judges, appoint two and go on about their business. Was that too hard? Apparently. But please stop blaming other people for the choices made by the PiS leadership. It's unbecoming of someone who wants to be taken seriously.

The big problem is that PiS remains under the thumb of one person who is a terrible, terrible administrator (he's good at doing some other things but he's terrible at running things that require dealing with people of different opinions). What's worse, he doesn't realize he has a problem and shifts blame onto others for his own mistakes - the sure sign of a terrible boss.

This is the large problem in democracy (especially in a media age). The elections select for who's good at campaigning while the skills needed to govern effectively are mostly entirely different and not usually found in the same people.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Dec 2015 #265
They have a majority in the Sejm and Senat, as well as the Presidency.

And that majority are receiving constructive dialogue and cooperation from the "loyal" (?!) opposition. The entire muck-up caused by PO's illicit appointment of TK judges has snowballed into one gigantic imbroglio.

Kukiz is proposing expanding the TK to18 members and swearing in the extra judges to resolve the situation. I doubt if the oppostion will agree. Why? Because that might calm the situation which they wish to enflame. They will use every pretext, pretence and trick in the book to safeguard their perks snad privileges. To hell with Poland, the nation, the people -- banksterism must prevail at all costs!
mafketis 24 | 9,361
18 Dec 2015 #266
And that majority are receiving constructive dialogue and cooperation from the "loyal" (?!) opposition

I'm sorry, since when has it been the job of the opposition to help the governing party's program?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Dec 2015 #267
The entire muck-up caused by PO's illicit appointment of TK judges has snowballed into one gigantic imbroglio.

Why did PiS need to start any trouble with the TK to begin with? It was simple - complain to the TK, get the 2 PO judges appointed illegally removed, appoint the three PO/PSL judges + 2 PiS, move on. Job done.

More to the point, the job of the opposition is to oppose. If PiS can't deal with opposition, then they're not fit for power.

The big problem is that PiS remains under the thumb of one person who is a terrible, terrible administrator

I think they're trying incredibly hard to cause trouble so that people will forget about the increased tax-free amount and 500zł per child. It's pretty obvious that the money isn't there, so they're using this TK situation to deflect attention away from it.

Incidentally, I've heard that PiS will cut all funding for milk bars. Amazing.
G (undercover)
18 Dec 2015 #268
Why did PiS need to start any trouble with the TK to begin with?

Because the previous regime violated the constitution.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Dec 2015 #269
Petru & Co

Has anyone ever heard of a banker leading a protest movement? Anywhere in the world.
Workers -- yes, rabble-rousing politicians -- typical, indirectly even priests occasionally (Popiełuszko). But a banker? That is so unbanker-like that he must have an ulterior motive. And we all know what it is. Eupehmsitically called a "market-friendly" climate, meaning foreign big-money forces run the show behind the scenes, whiklst their padi flunkies (MPs, ministers and other agents of influence on the take)eucne) go through the motions of "democratic governance". That is the Realpolitik. The high-sounding slogans are only there to delude the masses?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Dec 2015 #270
Because the previous regime violated the constitution.

Then let the TK rule and get on with it. The TK gave their judgement, all PiS have to do is respect that and we can move on.

By the way, Duda is currently violating the Constitution and ignoring an order by the highest court in the country to follow it, all because his boss tells him to do so. Pathetic.

Has anyone ever heard of a banker leading a protest movement?

Petru isn't leading any protest movement. He might be part of it, but so am I and many others.

The high-sounding slogans are only there to delude the masses?

There's no delusion here, except on the part of PiS voters that think that "decommunization" means "electing Jarosław Kaczyński's ex-PZPR friends to top positions".

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