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PiS wants symmetry for minorites living in Poland


Paulina 16 | 4,266
13 Dec 2012 #61
Well, I'm Australian with Polish and German ancestors, but that has nothing to do with my opinion here.

So maybe it's because you don't like Polish right-wing politicians? :)

First and foremost, institutions like the Jugendamt or the American Child Protection Agency are there to protect children. I don't give a flying hoot whether parents feel discriminated against or their human rights violated as long as the kids are safe and the actions of the authorities involved are both justified and legal. In the case of Pomorski it was justified because of the domestic violence,

How would he be abusing his children by speaking to them in Polish? (btw, was he convicted by the court for domestic violence?)
What if a lot of cases are not justified like the one of Joseph Cooke?
You know how the saying goes - there's no smoke without fire.
For example, a woman named Lila writes here: dyskryminacja-berlin.de/nasze-cele-sukcesy.html that with the help of that Polish society she won the case in the court. She wrote that the judge almost yelled at the Jugendamt representative. Of course, we can assume that this woman lies. But why don't we assume that a social worker can do wrong things too?

in the case of the Romeikes it was justfied and legal because they knowingly broke the law. I believe that at least half of the complaints against the aforementioned institutions are either based on manipulated facts where one parent "forgets" to mention certain negative details, or they are simply blown out of proportion to serve someone's agenda.

Yes, you BELIEVE. And that's the problem, I guess...

iThat doesn't mean that I back everything these institutions do or that I agree to state arbitrariness. If someone is really treated unfairly or his rights are violated, something needs to be done - no matter which country. But before we believe what some sources on the web claim, let's get all the facts first and then point the finger.

But you are pointing the finger. At Poles, at Polish media, you're writing about hypocrisy and skeletons in the closet, although you don't really know what's going on. You don't know how it's like, the problem doesn't concern you.

Who is defensive now... ;)

In what way am I defensive? I'm not a right-wing politician and I'm not even their electorate :) And it's not me argumenting in the lines: "Oh, but they beat the blacks in America!" (a Polish expression used in a satiric way ;)) By writing that I was just trying to make you think a little "outside the Western box", but I probably failed, as usual ;)

No, I meant what happens if there is suspected child abuse for example? Does Poland have something like the Jugendamt, and if yes what is its reputation?

I don't know much about it, apparently in cases of domestic violence meetings are supervised by a curator. As far as reputation is concerned I haven't heard any complaints (which doesn't mean they weren't any, of course). Have you?

What cora_b says, sounds quite accurate.

So do you agree there may be a problem with equal treatment of foreign parents?

None of us knows all the details to come to such a conclusion.

True, but also you don't know all the details to claim there's no problem, do you?
To be honest, I doubt that an American president would bother a chancellor of a country which is an ally of USA and the biggest economy in the EU if everything was OK.

I believe that at least half of the complaints

Besides, what about the other half? For me that would be enough to call it a problem.
TheOther 6 | 3,674
13 Dec 2012 #62
So maybe it's because you don't like Polish right-wing politicians?

I don't like right-wing politicians - Polish or otherwise.

Yes, you BELIEVE. And that's the problem, I guess

Well, you ASSUME - maybe that is the problem? :)

And it's not me argumenting in the lines: "Oh, but they beat the blacks in America!"

My example of the Child Protection Agency was only an answer to:

Sure but in Poland, and I suspect in other countries too, parents wouldn't be trembling because of such a silly thing and such a petty man.

As far as reputation is concerned I haven't heard any complaints (which doesn't mean they weren't any, of course). Have you?

Not about the Polish version of the Jugendamt, but about Polish courts mishandling international child abduction cases.

So do you agree there may be a problem with equal treatment of foreign parents?

I agree that there are cases where people were treated unfairly or where the Jugendamt made wrong decisions, but nationality has nothing to do with it.

To be honest, I doubt that an American president would bother a chancellor of a country which is an ally of USA and the biggest economy in the EU if everything was OK.

Americans bother everyone if it helps to get their way... :)

Besides, what about the other half? For me that would be enough to call it a problem.

There are definitely problems in handling international cases, but that's not a particular German problem.
Paulina 16 | 4,266
13 Dec 2012 #63
I don't like right-wing politicians - Polish or otherwise.

I knew it :) Can't blame you though ;P On the other hand liberals and left-wing politicians can be irritating too ;)

Well, you ASSUME - maybe that is the problem? :)

So you say we both have a problem? :)))

My example of the Child Protection Agency was only an answer to:

But you've started this earlier with Poland and Hague Abduction Convention, even before I wrote anything on this thread.

Not about the Polish version of the Jugendamt, but about Polish courts mishandling international child abduction cases.

So, in this case you also believe those who complain forget to mention certain negative details, or those complaints are simply blown out of proportion to serve someone's agenda?

I agree that there are cases where people were treated unfairly or where the Jugendamt made wrong decisions, but nationality has absolutely nothing to do with it.

How do you know it doesn't?

Americans bother everyone if it helps to get their way... :)

And Germans are control freaks? ;)

There are definitely problems in handling international cases, but that's not a particular German problem.

I would think that too, but I've heard only about Germany and Norway, I think - as far as immigrants are concerned. There are many immigrants in France or in the UK, but I haven't heard any complaints about such institutions in those countries.
TheOther 6 | 3,674
13 Dec 2012 #64
So you say we both have a problem?

LOL!

So, in this case you also believe those who complain forget to mention certain negative details, or those complaints are simply blown out of proportion to serve someone's agenda?

As I said before: without knowing all the details and without hearing both sides, it's difficult to get an educated opinion about these cases.

How do you know it doesn't?

How do you know it does? Running in circles... :)

I would think that too, but I've heard only about Germany and Norway, I think - as far as immigrants are concerned. There are many immigrants in France or in the UK, but I haven't heard any complaints about such institutions in those countries.

There are so many complicated and unfortunate cases out there, it's unbelievable. If you are interested, here's one source that looks trustworthy:

incadat.com/index.cfm?act=summaries.new&sl=4&lng=1

Click on a few of those 'New Summaries', for example this one:

incadat.com/index.cfm?act=search.detail&cid=1174&lng=1&sl=2
Paulina 16 | 4,266
13 Dec 2012 #65
Blown out of proportion - your opinion?

But I've asked you first :)) You don't think it's blown out of proportion? Then how about this?: Your comment was: "Americans bother everyone if it helps to get their way"

There are so many complicated and unfortunate cases out there, it's unbelievable. If you are interested, here's one source that looks trustworthy:

That's a lot of reading - could you pinpoint to something specific, a quote or two? I don't mean child abductions, but cases similar to those with the Jugendamt.

How do you know it does? Running in circles... :)

Well? Do you know? Or don't you?

As I said before: without knowing all the details and without hearing both sides, it's difficult to get an educated opinion about these cases.

Btw, are you sure this ABP is an unbiased source?

Be confident that ABP World Group will carefully investigate your case and provide you with the evidence uncovered to help you can determine the truth. Our methods are discrete and always professional.

LOL

This firm is probably American and I can imagine Americans hire them, rather than Poles ;)
TheOther 6 | 3,674
13 Dec 2012 #66
But I've asked you first

And I gave you the answer: I cannot be certain because I don't know all the details and haven't heard both sides. I actually expected you to give me the same answer - despite the rather controversial headline of the ABP page.

Btw, are you sure this ABP is an unbiased source?

No, that's why I removed the link from my original post. You were just too fast for me and referred to it while I was editing... :)

I meant the International Child Abduction Database looking trustworthy.

Well? Do you know? Or don't you?

You misunderstood what I was saying. One case alone or a handful don't prove that a whole organization discriminates against foreigners. There might have been isolated incidents where a case worker was a xenophobe, but there a millions of other cases where that was not the case. The Jugendamt is painted with a broad Nazi brush here, and that's simply not correct.

I don't mean child abductions, but cases similar to those with the Jugendamt.

I will answer that tomorrow, okay.
Paulina 16 | 4,266
13 Dec 2012 #67
And I gave you the answer: I cannot be certain because I don't know all the details and haven't heard both sides. I actually expected you to give me the same answer - despite the rather controversial headline of the ABP page.

OK, I guess I'm "Lost in Quoting" already, sorry ;)

One case alone or a handful don't prove that a whole organization discriminates against foreigners.

How do you know it's one case or a handful? I don't know how many they are. Judging by the bad press this institution has there may be more. I just gave those examples, because that was all I was bothered to look for.

I also don't claim that a whole organization discriminates against foreigners but judging by what I've read I see that the problem is not necessarily made up to serve someone's agenda. It may actually exist.

There might have been isolated incidents where a case worker was a xenophobe, but there a millions of other cases where that was not the case. The Jugendamt is painted with a broad Nazi brush here, and that's simply not correct.

How do you know? (and it's you who brought up the Nazis this time)

I will answer that tomorrow, okay.

OK.
TheOther 6 | 3,674
14 Dec 2012 #68
How do you know?

If there is one thing that Germans are paranoid about, then it's their brown past. Believe it or not, but no institution would survive the firestorm in the public, the mass media and the political circles should

there be even the slightest hint of fascist behavior. Latest example - although not directly related to this thread - is probably Thilo Sarrazin and his book.

and it's you who brought up the Nazis this time

You need to see the context:
https://polishforums.com/news/poland-pis-wants-symmetry-minorites-living-63579/2/#msg1333270

I also don't claim that a whole organization discriminates against foreigners...

No, you didn't claim that, but some of the sources you linked did.

The whole child custody question is worldwide dirty business - and all who are involved are guilty in one way or another. The parents, because they can't get their act together, inflexible institutions that follow outdated laws to the letter, judges who do not care about international law, politicians who don't want to touch the topic ... you name it. In the end it's always the kids who are the victims. Maybe that is something we can both agree to...
Paulina 16 | 4,266
14 Dec 2012 #69
If there is one thing that Germans are paranoid about, then it's their brown past. Believe it or not, but no institution would survive the firestorm in the public, the mass media and the political circles should
there be even the slightest hint of fascist behavior.

I can imagine. But "discriminatory" or "overzealous" doesn't equal "fascist". It's not like social workers are crying "Sieg Heil!" and wear brown shirts LOL ;)

Latest example - although not directly related to this thread - is probably Thilo Sarrazin and his book.

Is it true that his book has become a bestseller in Germany and according to polls "almost half of the German population (including SPD members) agree with Sarrazin's political views"? (That's what I've just read in the Wikipedia, I've never heard of this guy or his book before lol).

You need to see the context:

I know the context, but I'm not polonius :)

No, you didn't claim that, but some of the sources you linked did.

Which ones?

In the end it's always the kids who are the victims.

Yeah, unfortunately... I guess that's why it gets me.
f stop 25 | 2,507
14 Dec 2012 #70
My take is: if you don't want to put signs in foreign language, then don't. If you do, then it should be because it is to your advantage, like fewer people wandering around, lost, looking for directions. But it shouldn't be expected that other countries do the same thing - it is their decision.

As far as the father and speaking Polish to his kid: his claim is sketchy. Most parents would try to prove that they are the good guys so they can see their kids. The guy sounds like a pompous ass, but that's just my opinion.
TheOther 6 | 3,674
14 Dec 2012 #71
But "discriminatory" or "overzealous" doesn't equal "fascist".

You don't know the German lefties and their favorite weapon, the "Nazikeule"... :)

Which ones?

chronicle.com/forums/index.php?topic=63149.0%3Bwap2
"Under those circumstances of institutionalised discrimination against foreign parents, it's natural to question whether it applies to other decisions."

Is it true that his book has become a bestseller in Germany

According to Wikipedia, it has. All I heard is that Sarrazin seem to have stated some incovenient truths that no one in the German political scene was willing to say openly.

There are some interesting points made here (which is also an indirect description of the Nazikeule mentioned above):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschland_schafft_sich_ab#Statements_of_support

I don't mean child abductions, but cases similar to those with the Jugendamt.

Okay, I tried to find similar cases to the Pomorski one, but wasn't successful. Which kind of proves my point that it was either a one time occurance or a very rare thing. I could provide plenty of links to other international cases like child abuse for example, but I don't think that's really necessary.


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