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PiS to impose blanket retail tax in Poland


OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
27 Jan 2016 #181
It gets even better...

Alma - a Polish owned grocery store with 45 stores in premium locations - has seen a huge fall in their share prices since the election.

almamarket.pl/en/investors/stock-exchange/shar-course-chart?timespan=3

The chart clearly shows us that their shares have gone from over 9zł per share to a mere 6.5zł. Far from being a good tax to help Polish businesses, it rather transpires that Polish businesses are being punished by PiS.

It gets even worse when you look at other Polish retailers - there's an excellent article here that explains it nicely.

money.pl/gielda/spolka-dnia/artykul/biedronka-zyska-na-podatku-akcje-jeronimo,117,0,2006389.html

The Polish chain Alma responded badly to the retail tax calculations, as their shares fell by 9 percent on Tuesday and already about 13 percent from the beginning of the year. According to estimates Money.pl these shops will pay 16.3 million zł tax, which will increase the losses that Alma incurred in the last two years. Raising prices is a necessity, and this will increase the outflow of customers to Biedronka, for example.

For PiS, destroying Polish business must be accomplished at all costs. The insane part is that this tax will hurt Empik as well, who are known to be in huge difficulties.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
28 Jan 2016 #182
Alma - a Polish owned grocery store with 45 stores in premium locations - has seen a huge fall in their share prices since the election.

No sympathy from me. A silly, overpriced store for snobs, an opinion I have oft stated.
jon357 71 | 20,416
28 Jan 2016 #183
The chart clearly shows us that their shares have gone from over 9zł per share to a mere 6.5zł.

For PiS, destroying Polish business must be accomplished at all costs.

Basically they want a return to pre-1989
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
28 Jan 2016 #184
A silly, overpriced store for snobs, an opinion I have oft stated.

Doug, not so fast - their own brand line "Food & Joy" is actually very very good value for money. I'd recommend giving it a shot - you might be pleasantly surprised like I was.

Likewise, they own the Krakowski Kredens chain, but I found out today that they actually use local suppliers to create the products. Just shows who PiS is really destroying...
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Jan 2016 #185
PiS is really destroying...

Somehow no-one recalls you ever listing the many Polish shops and businesses which the PO's preferential pro-foreign-chain policy forced to close their doors. Interesting, eh? The PO and now Petru are pro-foreign and therefore anti-Polish to the core. They add insult to injury by dressing it all up in high-sounding, albeit deceptive rhetoric.
mafketis 34 | 12,243
29 Jan 2016 #186
no-one recalls you ever listing the many Polish shops and businesses which the PO's preferential pro-foreign-chain policy forced to close their doors

God forbid, that Polish shoppers should have a choice.....

And.... you're saying that Polish shops and businesses being forced to close their doors due to unwise tax policies is better?

You're either pro-businesses (in which case chains are going to gobble up a big part of the market - see economy of scale) or you're anti-business and long for the days of ration cards and standing in line for hours every day to do normal shopping....

Which is it?
gumishu 12 | 6,086
29 Jan 2016 #187
You're either pro-businesses (in which case chains are going to gobble up a big part of the market - see economy of scale) or you're anti-business and long for the days of ration cards and standing in line for hours every day to do normal shopping..

this is false alternative mafketis - at least it has nothing to do with the current state of affairs and the ruling party views - the new tax is supposed to amend the evasion of foreing retail chains of paying taxes in Poland - maybe it will be not necessary in the long run because the EU is currently working on new rules that would make businesses to pay taxes (perhaps also social security contributions) where the income is generated
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Jan 2016 #188
adviser to the government

I wish I were because I've got a number of good ideas about wat they could and should do, esp. re pro-Polish priorities.
BTW TVP news yesterday reported that the bank tax prohibits passing it on to customers. The bloody, filthy-rich banksters can shave a tiny bit off their outlandishly lucrative profits, or use lower-watt light bulbs or economise in other ways, but not at the expense of Jan Kowalski.
Roger5 1 | 1,455
29 Jan 2016 #189
I wish I were

There's nothing stopping you from sending your suggestions to the ministries. Who knows, once they've checked you out you might be given a government-appointed position. Stranger things have happened recently.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Jan 2016 #190
You're either pro-businesses

You forgot another option -- being for Polish indigenous entrepreneurship, Polish Polish design, manufaturing, brands, logos and retail busienss on the one hand and oppsoed to foreign domination of the Polish market on the other. The EU have somehow forgotten that preferential treatment should be accorded ot post-Soviet states deprived of Marshall Plan aid that couild not freely develop their own market economies. As such they cannot compete with Western biggies.
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jan 2016 #191
BTW TVP news yesterday reported that the bank tax prohibits passing it on to customers.

Except the banks turned round almost immediately and said "oh, doesn't apply to us, because we were planning to raise prices anyway". PKO for instance have claimed that it's just a coincidence ;)

the new tax is supposed to amend the evasion of foreing retail chains of paying taxes in Poland

The new tax is really about implementing a rise in VAT without saying so. More to the point, it's a particularly brutal tax (and could cause the death of Empik...) because it has to be paid regardless if you make a profit or not.

You forgot another option -- being for Polish indigenous entrepreneurship, Polish Polish design, manufaturing, brands, logos and retail busienss on the one hand and oppsoed to foreign domination of the Polish market on the other.

As I said before, there are countless ways to encourage this without taxation.
mafketis 34 | 12,243
29 Jan 2016 #192
without taxation.

But when you're a socialist every problem looks like something that needs to be taxed....
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jan 2016 #193
I just find it funny that the biggest losers of the bank and retail taxes have been Polish businesses and consumers. It's now becoming rapidly apparent that the bank tax is resulting in people paying several thousand more for a mortgage, for instance.
gumishu 12 | 6,086
29 Jan 2016 #194
The new tax is really about implementing a rise in VAT without saying so.

retail tax known as a sales tax is prevalent in the states of the US and nobody complains - I am actually in favour of universal sales tax like in the US and Polish business associations back this idea
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jan 2016 #195
That's because it's a clear tax applied to the consumer. In this case, it was a stealth tax applied to the people under the guise of forcing supermarkets to pay more taxes. Look at petrol retailing in Poland - Orlen and Lotos clearly are dominant here. Polish businesses, Polish controlled and their customers will be paying more at the pump.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Jan 2016 #196
countless ways

Your favourite buzz-words -- endelss PZPR memgbers in PiS govt and countless ways... So name 5! Besides don't you think bansters are rich enough and not worth shedding tears over? If the law states banks may not pass the tax on to customers, and you know of a bank that does, then you should report them to the prosecutor's office. A threat of licence loss would keep banks in line, because Poland is too big and good a market for the financial bloodsuckers to lose.
Harry
29 Jan 2016 #197
If the law states banks may not pass the tax on to customers, and you know of a bank that does, then you should report them to the prosecutor's office.

It's a bit late now, they've all jacked up their charges in advance of the tax, by complete coincidence and due purely to various factors such as the costs of compliance with the requirements of the Third Basel Accord and increased risk stemming from Poland's credit ratings being cut and the zloty hitting the toilet. So they now don't need to put up their charges.

Of course, PIS could slap another 2% on top of the bank tax to cover the extra banks are now charging, but the banks would just raise their charges even higher in the time between the debate in the Sejm starting and the resulting law being signed by the 'president', which no doubt means that the PIS-ed up morons will do exactly that.
cms 9 | 1,255
2 Feb 2016 #198
Seems like the govt has managed to annoy everyone with the new tax - small players who thought they would be protected now get hit harder than the foreign operators, petrol stations and utility shops see their entire margin wiped out. I read in Rz today about the contortions that furniture shops will use to get round the nonsensical weekend tax - that on Saturday you don't purchase that sofa, you merely look at it and buy it on tick and get it delivered on Monday.

Clear to me that nobody in the govt has any idea of unintended consequences or of economics - the law looks it was drafted by a sophomore student.
mafketis 34 | 12,243
2 Feb 2016 #199
nobody in the govt has any idea of unintended consequences or of economics - the law looks it was drafted by a sophomore student.

They seem to believe in the silver bullet theory of policy making. That is, if they pass legislation with worthy goals then those goals will be achieved. Meanwhile, on planet earth things are a lot more difficult.
terri 1 | 1,664
2 Feb 2016 #200
1. I'm sure that every store, large concern will AVOID this tax at all costs. Large stores will be divided into separate unique outlets selling cosmetics, bread, food items, clothing. Their individual profits will be below the line set for tax.

2, As for trading on Saturday and Sunday (higher tax rates) the stores will merely open longer on weekdays or pass the extra charge onto their customers which will fuel inflation.

3. Stores being closed on Sunday will not FORCE people into going to church anyway..

4. ALL banks will pass any extra charges onto their customers. Banks will cut costs and dispense with the services of bank employees. This will mean more unemployment. Government will have to pay the unemployed.

5. Introduction of the minimum, wage will force prices to increase and will fuel inflation, then strikes then a change in Government.
Government will have to pay the unemployed who have been dispensed with, as companies/firms have only so much for the services that cleaners or security people provide. If they were to increase prices this fuels inflation.

6. In 2 years time, inflation in Poland will be running at 15-20% per annum.
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
2 Feb 2016 #201
Clear to me that nobody in the govt has any idea of unintended consequences or of economics - the law looks it was drafted by a sophomore student.

The funny thing is that it probably was, given the pechant this government has for hiring young boys to run important departments.

They seem to believe in the silver bullet theory of policy making.

Rather reminds one of the average Five-Year Plan.

or pass the extra charge onto their customers

Which is exactly what they will do, or they will squeeze the suppliers. There's already one influential retailing association in Poland pointing out that even if the government tries to impose price controls, suppliers will simply be told to cut the cost by the amount of the tax, or retailers will simply sell a slightly different product size. I'm reminded of what happened in the UK in 2009-2010 - prices didn't go up, but the size of the product simply changed.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Feb 2016 #202
AVOID this tax at all costs

The bottom line of what you're saying (and I hope it isn't entirely true) is that big bankers and retailers are greedy scum devoid of human kindness, sensitivity and any sense of pro bono!
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
2 Feb 2016 #203
No, what we're saying is that the laws have been poorly drafted and won't achieve their aims.

The most sensible and straightforward thing would have been to increase VAT if they wanted to raise revenue in order to provide wealthy middle class families with extra money while depriving the working poor.
Roger5 1 | 1,455
2 Feb 2016 #204
big bankers and retailers are greedy scum devoid of human kindness, sensitivity and any sense of pro bono!

Bankers yes; retailers no.
mafketis 34 | 12,243
2 Feb 2016 #205
The bottom line of what you're saying (and I hope it isn't entirely true) is that big bankers and retailers are greedy scum devoid of human kindness, sensitivity and any sense of pro bono!

the bottom line of what you're saying is that you think that private business interests have a duty to support the policy goals of a particular party - that is philosophy straight out of the PRL...
poganin - | 58
2 Feb 2016 #206
We can look forward to the destruction of the Polish online retailing sector ...

This is from a person who is only interested in foreign investment in Poland, do not pretend you worry about Polish shop keepers. Better to pay more tax than to make more debts with EU or take away from pensioners or single parents.
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
2 Feb 2016 #207
Better to pay more tax than to make more debts with EU or take away from pensioners or single parents.

1) Taxes have been increased
2) Pensioners will lose about 30% of their pension due to the PiS plans
3) Single parents will lose massively if they only have one child and they earn minimum wage
4) Pensioners and single parents are the most likely to use their local bank for convenience, which is normally PKO BP - which has increased fees due to the tax.

Pull the other one.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Feb 2016 #208
private business interests have a duty

No, they have the duty to act like human beings, not greedy, profit-obsessed bloodsuckers!

pretend you worry about Polish shop keepers

Spot on. Delph is only worried about the "poor" foreign corporations who may have to ever so slgithly shave their profit margin. Instead of being super-ultra-mega-hyper filthy rich they will drop down a notch to the extremely, indecenrtly wealthy category. And that in a world where half the population regularly goes to bed hungry! In view of that extreme contrast, can anyone wonder why so many toxic off-the-wall ideologies so easily whip up resentment and foment revolutionary upheavals amongst the have-nots?!
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
2 Feb 2016 #209
Delph is only worried about the "poor" foreign corporations who may have to ever so slgithly shave their profit margin.

I'm not worried about them, I'm worried about the "ordinary man" that will be screwed by the increase in shop prices, decreases in profit for suppliers and who will have to pay more to access banking services.

I can jump in my car and shop where I want and bank where I want. Many others don't have such a luxury, and they're the ones that will massively lose out.

At the end of the day, this retail tax is going to subsidise wealthy PiS supporters with 2 or more children while ensuring that the single mother that earns minimum wage will go without. Disgraceful.
mafketis 34 | 12,243
2 Feb 2016 #210
No, they have the duty to act like human beings, not greedy, profit-obsessed bloodsuckers!

They have a duty to make a profit (or they go out of business). Many people (comme vous par example) seem unable to distinguish the need for profit from being a greedy profit-obsessed bloodsucker. But again, most business (esp ones with large constant turnover) usually run on very small margins which can easily be wiped out by small changes in the tax codes or small downturns in their customer base.

PiS, in it's search for power, has not incentive to educate voters on how economies actually work but there's no excuse for you.

If you really wanted to help Polish businesses thrive, you wouldn't obsess about punishing foreign companies but should work on policies that encourage people to start businesses and to hire people. Nothing PiS has done (or is likely to do) will accomplish that.

You can blame greed or foreigners or whatever, but it's like blaming gravity when you can't fly....


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