Poland's PIS go back to their old ways

Shame on both of them, if you ask me. I've always thought that the Church was strongest when avoiding getting involved in politics, as it just led to the recent embarrassing climbdown over not actually excommunicating those that voted for IVF.

here maybe it's not in nominal figures but in real value I don't know however its also the International Monetary Fund that says that the tax incomes fall in Poland since 2007 -

forsal.pl/artykuly/870704,polski-fiskus-najslabszy-w-regionie-wplywy-z-podatkow-spadaja-od-8-lat.html

the tax revenues as a percentage of GDP fall constantly

Those that make such accusations seem to forget that a priest or bishop is also a citizen and as such enjoys freedom of pseech. Excommunication is an internal Church matter with no impact on the body politic. The excommunicated party cannot be prosecuted, fined or jailed by the public judiciary or law enforcement. If the Episcopate had the authority to reverse what they considered unacceptable government decisions, then we could speak of interfering.

JP2 made it plainly clear that priests may not stand for pulbic office. As long as they don't, they enjoy freedom of speech like everyone else. It would be like saying Michnik was interefering in politics because he made this or that statement. He has the right to speak his mind, odious as that might be. That's called democracy!

With freedom of speech comes great responsibility. If you consider that people get angry every time the Church interferes in politics, wouldn't it be better to keep quiet for their own sake?


Is there any reason why? It would perhaps be much more honest if the Church said "we have a party, vote for us". I'd certainly embrace the existence of a Church party with a manifesto based entirely around the current teachings.


There's a reason for that. Eurostat has been fiddling with statistical methods for the last while, and they started to include the black economy too. So it stands to reason that tax collected as a percentage of GDP would fall - particularly as some areas of the black economy (prostitution, drugs) are quite sizable in most European countries.

if that would be the reason IMF would not be concerned I think - and they are - btw i am not sure Polish GDP is calculated according to Eurostat methods as Poland is not part of the Eurozone

well I researched the topic a little and GDP calculated including illegal activities gave reasons to raise Brittish GDP by 0,7 per cent - let's assume in Poland it would raise the GDP by 2 per cent (which is very generous assumption I think) - the new methodology does not explain the observed amount of the fall of tax revenues as percentage of the GDP

Wouldn't it also be explained in terms of people not buying property and so on? From 2008 onwards, it became very difficult to buy property - and by all accounts, the property market slowed down dramatically. If people were buying less, then the percent relative to GDP would fall quite naturally.

I'm not sure it's a straight correlation between increased GDP and increased tax revenue. This is why I lament the problem in Poland of experts being so heavily wrapped up in politics - we could do with some unbiased observations on the matter.

But it's OK for Michnik to interfere in politics? That is equality? Both Michnik and his J-word cronies as well as priests and bishops are free to rant and rave as long as they don't set up a thug squad to illegally enforce their acceptance and punish dissenters.

Whether it would be to the Church's advantage to not speak out on public issues is an entirely different matter. You can propose your services to the Epsicopate as a PR and image-improvement specialist

Michnik is a journalist, so it's rather expected of them. But from the Church point of view - every interference causes a massive negative reaction, so it's really not in their interest to do so.


Not a bad idea. I'd start by getting them to talk about all the good work they do and tell them to shut up about in vitro, homosexuality and other fringe issues. Francis should be the inspiration.

you are wrapped up in politics as well - IMF concerns don't bother you as long as the ruling party is PO I guess

@Harry:

you wrote: "(Duda) supposedly didn't invite the head of the European Council to his swearing-in as President of Poland"

WHY ARE YOU LYING ???

The procedurę is that the CHAIRMAN OF PARLIAMENT has to invite guests for this ceremony, not the president !

The invitation HAS BEEN SENT to Donald Tusk !

Donald Tusk REFUSED the invitation, as it pointed out him as a "former prime minister".

There is no such possibility to invite the head of the European Council, because none of the heads of states had been invited, too !

So this is a STRICT procedurę, which is realised by the chairman of the Polish parliament, and you supose here something completely stupid and unfair. WHY ?

could you tell me, WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT ?

Please cite a source which confirms your assertion that Tusk was formally invited.

A priest or bishop is a citizen and every conscious citizen should have views of his own and enjoy the freedom of speech to express them. Regardless if it's Blumstein the journalist, a Father Kowalski or Stanley the plumber.

Only if they used behind-the-scenes intimidation and black-balling to deprive people they disagreed with of their livelihood the way the LGBT mob has done, would churchmen be out of line.

You can't paste polish staff here

I have no idea what that means.
If you mean Polish stuff, i.e. news stories, I'm sure you can post a link.

Lay Catholics are free to set up political parties -- Komorowski orignally belonged to one, there was also a Christian National Union (ZChN) in Poland, and Christian Democrat and Christian Socialist parties exist in many places. But clergy may not stand for polticial office becuase that owuld be gettign involved in politics. They are free to voice their views, however.

It is strange, to be honest. I think most people would be far more accepting of a party that was genuinely under Church control rather than the current situation where the bishops are heavily involved with PiS and vice-versa.

gosh, I mean links in Polish language.

@Roger:

politico.eu/article/not-invited-polands-duda-to-tusk-ceremony-warsaw-civic-platform-law-justice/

But in Poland everybody knows this. The invitaions were issued by the Parliamentary Chairman (Kidawa-Błońska). She is from the same party, as Tusk. And she invited Tusk as a former prime minister. There was no other way to invite him. None of the head of states or other VIPs has been invited except that ones according to the protocol ...

But this is a good point to start discussion WHY Tusk claimed he hasn't been invited. The reason is obvious: he wants to conflict new president and the party PiS with the European establishment to be able to claim, that this party and this president cannot guarranty the proper relations with Europe.

Sapienti sat ...

"Kędryna referred POLITICO to a Polish Press Agency article, which suggests Tusk was invited, but by the Chancellery of Polish Parliament - the Sejm - rather than Duda. It is claimed that the invitation was issued to Tusk as the former prime minister of Poland rather than president of the European Council."

"Referred to", "suggests", "Claimed".
Your source is a bit vague.


I guess I'm out of the loop, then.
I'm not saying it isn't true. It's just that I require more concrete evidence. I've heard so much bs from politicians of all stripes in my life that I don't believe things just because someone tells me it's true (and I'm not a PO or Tusk fan).

@ALL: and I would like to notice, that President invited ONLY HIS FAMILY and some private friends. He was not entitled to invite ANYBODY officialy !

He was not the organiser of the event. The Parliament was organising it (personally the chairman of the parliament) and this person was the only one responsible for the programme of the event.

Is it clear to everybody ?

********

Further explanations: Poland is politically divided into two main parts (PO and PiS). PO is mainly the party of government officials. I would say: the Worker's Union of the clerks, their families and the businessmen who benefit from the government's contracts.

PiS is a party which has more connected with church, but not only. Most of young people are PiS voters, not PO voters !

Except these two parties there are some EU-sceptic parties (not "Euro-sceptic" !), like KNP, KORWiN, RN etc. All of them are closer to PiS than to PO. The trend is that PO is losing its position, and Unio-sceptics are gaining more and more power (which is the case of every country in the EU). This proces will surely lead us to the destruction of the EU. This bureaucratic nightmare should end as soon as possible.

So you should consider PiS and other patriotic parties as more young, more energetic and with more power in the internet, and PO is rather more similar to the communist party, which bancrupted 25 years ago. In fact many of the PO leaders are of communist origin.

To understand this complicaated situation you should read more about former communist special services WSI (Wojskowe Służby Informacyjne - Military Information Services). They don't exist now, but the people are still active in the politics and they are the true rulers of our country. Their tide bonds with PO are very well known in Poland. They are like mafia. And Poles are more and more aware of it and that's the reason, why voters voted for Duda, and will vote in October for PiS.

"The reason is obvious: he wants to conflict new president and the party PiS with the European establishment"

I didn't check that, but it sounds possible. Tusk and his gang were very apt in antagonising PiS at the same time telling people that it was PiS who was antagonising The Civic Platform. Tusk is a very shrewd politician who was able to control the political scene in Poland for years simply by pointing out to PiS as a source for all evil things. Now that he is gone, the PO seems to be falling apart like a house of cards. And I'm not saying that PiS were saints. But Tusk eagerness to kill other prominent politicians within PO like Schetyna to promote his own gang among them that boyish clown Sławomir Nowak turns agains the party now. Prime Minister Kopacz seems to be much more honest than Tusk, even if she was quite incompetent as the Minister of Health. Nothing seems to save PO in the next general election as there are so many former PO voters dissatisfied so much with them. Ryszard Petru and his nowoczesna.pl seems to be a valid alternative for those who do not want to vote nether PO nor PiS, but they are a too recent and unexperienced movement to gain much of the vote..

In my experience this is absolutely not the case. Do you have any polling stats on that claim?

@Roger5: what I can say :) I can only smile :)

Because something, which is OBVIOUS in Poland suddenly is questioned.

If you would know Polish language, you would find article 2 days before the event, that Tusk will come, as ALL FORMER PRIME MINISTERS have been invited.

Everybody knows, that this is not a president, who invites. This is according to the strict protocol.

tusk is one of the most hated politicians in Poland. For him it would be almost impossible to go to people on the street without being spat, in contrary to President Duda, who is welcomed very warmly by people.

Probably Tusk was very afraid of the protests against him on the streets, and he didn't want to give his political opponents the advantage.

You should read some random articles about Tusk and watch the comments of people. You would be shocked, how much anger have people towards him.

Or just go to google.pl and search "kłamca" (liar). You will see Tusk's name as the result.

I think, Tusk is the biggest fall of the authority in Poland in the last 25 years (maybe except Walesa).

@Roger5: this is the link to the text of Adam Michnik (supporter of Tusk, PO and Komorowski):

wyborcza.pl/1,75478,17976890,Wybory_prezydenckie__Skoro_mlodzi_tak_glosowali__to.html

He called these young voters literally "stinkers".

Instead of smiling, you should give some polling stats on that claim really ...

@Roger5: this is the link to the text of Adam Michnik (supporter of Tusk, PO and Komorowski):

wyborcza.pl/1,75478,17976890,Wybory_prezydenckie__Skoro_mlodzi_tak_glosowali__to.html

He called these young voters literally "stinkers".

Exit polls:

forbes.pl/wybory-2015-kto-glosowal-na-andrzeja-dude,artykuly,194854,1,2.html

"Młodzi za Dudą" = "Young people for Duda"

18-29 years old:
- 60% for Duda
- 40% for Komorowski

But the PO hate industry has apparently not been put on hold. Michnik's own editorial as well as the letters from readers he published indicate that Duda's offer of cooperation has been rejected. They have not reconciled themselves to the presidential defeat and that spells nothing but trouble. Let us recall, an over-confident President from Kashubia and a PM from Kraków were all set to take power back in 2005 when both Tusk and the PO were unexpectedly defeated. They were in shock, sulked, simmered and unleashed an all-out war on the winners, refusing to cooperate and pouring scorn on the ruling camp at every turn. In those circumstances no meaningful cooperation for the good of the country was possible. Are we in for a repeat of the Platformer hate war?

What exit polls?

Komorowski is 20 years older but seems like a very old man so normal that the youngest don't feel close to him.

@InPolska: you are TOTALY WRONG. The age of the politician has NOTHING to do with the support from a particular age range. The good example is Janusz Korwin Mikke, who is 73 years old and th e most support he gets from the youngest Poles.

The reason lays somewhere else: Komorowski represents the ESTABLISHMENT, who blocked the possibilities for young people. It is like a mafia or like a local cacique in African states, where only the members of the clan can get the governmental or financialy good posts.

So young people in Poland have two choices:
- emigrate
- fight in Poland for more democratic system

This is the current situation in Poland. Duda is the HOPE for young people for CHANGES. He is more for free market, he is against bureaucratic European Union (but he supports being the part of the European Community).

The best comparison in Europe for Duda is Nigel Farage - a politician, who is AGAINST THE ESTABLISHMENT. Just after elections he met with Polish Free Market organisation of young people (Koliber.org.pl). Just after swearing as a president (at the same day !) he had a video conference with internet users. He is really a new value in Polish politics.

@Polonius3: definitely YES. The war has already begun with the Tusk's refusal to come, although he had an invitation as a former prime minister. Then the spokeswoman of the Polsih government (Joanna Mucha) said, that opening speech of President Duda, which he made without reading the text from the papers was not good. She supposed, that it is not good, when somebody is making a speech without preparing it on paper. Very strange attitude ...

So we are observing more and more attacks on Duda and with time it will be only worse. Hopefully PO will lose the general elections and will disappear from the Polish scene forever. The nightmare ends ...

@Ultima: I was not focusing on K's official age but rather on his style.

Fortunately, PO are going nowhere.


Bwhahaha. Duda is about as establishment as it comes - he comes from a nomeklatura family, he's a lawyer, worked in the university through personal connections - the guy just screams "establishment". Duda has barely worked a real day in his life - everything he's done has been through political patronage.


Duda, free market? The man signed an agreement with Solidarność obliging him to all sorts of things - would you like to read it?

currenteventspoland.com/news/solidarnosc-endorses-andrzej-duda-from-pis-for-president-of-poland.html

Free market, hahahaha - the man is enslaved to the trade unions.

Do try harder.

Remember, PO are the future of Poland. The only future.