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"It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland)


Crow 146 | 7,594    
3 Nov 2018  #1,711
Germany is down because insulted Svetovid. That is why Germanics losing power. Svetovid is powerful God.

Look, Ottoman Turks insulted Svetovid and their sultan Murad I was by Serbian killed exactly on Vidovdan (28 June 1389), day dedicated to Svetovid. Turkish Empire is no more. Then, take Austro-Hungaria. Archduke Ferdinand insulted Svetovid and provoked and he also was killed by Serbian on day dedicated to Svetovid (Vidovdan, 28 June 1914). No more AH Empire.
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,712
OK, Lyzko let's not mention the war. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it all right :-)

youtu.be/7xnNhzgcWTk



They made one little silly mistake and now everything's cool, all right.
Tacitus 1 | 764    
3 Nov 2018  #1,713
You know, the sketch was making more fun about the Brits than the Germans. Or more specifically, about those who were still fighting the war 30 years after its' end. In a way it gets more relevant with every day. Because those who still bring it up as a way to judge modern Germans are just exposing their own stupidity, like Basil did.
Crow 146 | 7,594    
3 Nov 2018  #1,714
Svetovid protects! Pray to Christ and to Svetovid and you will be invincible. Very powerful combination
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,715
about those who were still fighting the war 30 years after its' end

Nope, only the military operations have ceased. The war is still on.

The compensations still weren't paid to those who have lost the most.

I know that for Germany it would be great if we all accepted status quo. I say, let's change the status quo and then we can have perfect peace that you'll have to accept too, how about that? :-)
Tacitus 1 | 764    
3 Nov 2018  #1,716
The war is still on.

Ok Basil, whatever you say ;)

I say, let's change the status quo

You want to give Pommerania and Silesia back to Germany?
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
3 Nov 2018  #1,717
The compensations still weren't paid to those who have lost the most.

The Federal Republic of Germany is not a successor state to the German Reich, no matter how hard you pretend otherwise. That has been clearly established at the highest international level.

The war is still on.

In your head. Fortunately, most people in Poland and Germany know better than to regurgitate the nonsense coming out of Nowogrodzka.

Speaking of which, why aren't you demanding compensation from Russia for the damage carried out on Polish territory?
Lyzko 18 | 5,285    
3 Nov 2018  #1,718
Spike, ol' man, the sketch was tacky way back then, and it's even tackier nowadays:-) At least Polly the chamber maid, managed to answer that chap in correct German when he asked about when breakfast is being servedLOL

When are we going to let go of the stereotypes? They're only slowing us down and impeding true multi-cultural communication.
On the other hand, if you only want to talk to yourself, at least you'll always have a wrapped audience......OF ONE!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,719
You want to give Pommerania and Silesia back to Germany?

Why stop at that? Poland should fight to re-gain the Kresy again...yeah...let's turn back time and borders!
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,720
The Federal Republic of Germany is not a successor state to the German Reich

Well, actually they are. Wrong again delphiadomine. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but not you. How do you do it?

Spike, ol' man, the sketch was tacky way back then, and it's even tackier nowadays:-)

Nah, it's still funny :-) I'm a huge Monty Python and John Cleese fan

When are we going to let go of the stereotypes? They're only slowing us down and impeding true multi-cultural communication.

I bet that's what would Angela Merkel say when asked: "why on earth did you let 2 million illegals into Germany" :-D
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,721
You want to give Pommerania and Silesia back to Germany?

Nah, you'll have to come and take it yourself :-)

Why would you need it anyway? Running out of space for new Germans from Middle East and Africa?
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
3 Nov 2018  #1,722
Svetovid is powerful God.

As a smart guy that you are you should know by now that the surest way to end a debate is by throwing God into it.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
3 Nov 2018  #1,723
Well, actually they are.

Except it isn't. The Federal Republic derives its legitimacy from the Allied occupation, not the German Reich. The German Reich was occupied and ceased to exist legally in 1945, and the Allies were consistent in the fact that the German Reich had ceased to exist. The Potsdam Agreement is what you're looking for, and that makes it crystal clear that a new German state would gain sovereignty from the Allied occupation, not from the German Reich.

The most important ruling on the matter comes from the European Court of Human Rights, which is recognised by Poland and Germany. In 2005, they ruled definitively that sovereignty lay with the Allied occupiers between 1945-1949. That Allied occupation had no legal continuity with the German Reich, hence the Federal Republic has no continuity with the German Reich too. Poland accepts the jurisdiction of the ECHR, hence there's no legal claim.

I know that this wasn't in the briefing from Nowogrodzka, however. You'll need to do more research in future.

Now, given that the highest court in Europe (the Grand Chamber of the ECHR) has ruled that the Federal Republic isn't a successor state to the German Reich, how does Poland intend to pursue any claim?
Tacitus 1 | 764    
3 Nov 2018  #1,724
This is a very complicated legal matter and I do not see any merit in explaining it to some people who do not care about facts anyway.

WWII is long over, and all matters regarding the war between Germany and Poland have been definitely dealt with anyway.
mafketis 16 | 6,286    
3 Nov 2018  #1,725
impeding true multi-cultural communication.

True multi-cultural communication is impossible because it requires common ground and there simply isn't enough common ground around the world to serve as a basis for communication.

What people usually mean by multi-cultural communication is a racially, ethnically diverse monoculture (like Star Trek, a fantasy, an appealing fantasy but a fantasy nonetheless)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,726
....even if you look...say...500 years into the future?
dolnoslask 5 | 2,182    
3 Nov 2018  #1,727
ECHR has ruled that the Federal Republic isn't a successor state to the German Reich

That's handy, having the slate wiped clean as to put it, So why is Poland left with the bill to pay reparations to families who lost property in WWII, seems a bit one sided and unfair to me. or am I missing something?
mafketis 16 | 6,286    
3 Nov 2018  #1,728
.even if you look...say...500 years into the future?

Well the chances that something like a monoculture could arise, but I like language and cultural differences.

And what happens 500 years from now is irrelevant.
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,730
Oh, I do care about facts. Especially when the matter is as slippery as a legal status of Federal Republic of Germany

regarding the war between Germany and Poland have been definitely dealt with anyway

Nothing is definite except of death and taxes
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,731
So why is Poland left with the bill to pay reparations to families who lost property in WWII, seems a bit one sided and unfair to me. or am I missing something?

It isn't reparations...it's compensation if I'm informed correctly. And only for Jews, not for Germans. It's about jewish property which was given to Poles or taken over by the new polish state and never was given back to the survivors and relatives, correct?
Ironside 47 | 9,250    
3 Nov 2018  #1,732
ou want to give Pommerania and Silesia back to Germany?

lol! where did you acquire your negotiation style? In a Marxist class of 99?

The Federal Republic derives its legitimacy from the Allied occupation

So, any territorial claims of today German state are invalid and null by default. According to our legal genius Delph.

Compensation for the war is a question of a political will not of a legal battle. The Teutonic Order lost a legal battle with the Kingdom of Poland but only two wars which they lost and a successful rebellion of its subjects forced them to abide by the ruling.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
3 Nov 2018  #1,733
That's handy, having the slate wiped clean as to put it, .. seems a bit one sided and unfair to me. or am I missing something?

I'm glad you asked, because it's quite an important question.

Basically, the Allies wanted to justify their actions post-war in Germany. They couldn't do things (like the Nuremburg Trials) legally if they were just an occupying power according to the Hague Conventions and other agreements, so they considered that the German Reich had ceased to exist and that sovereignty was in the hands of the occupying powers. That's what allowed them to legally justify the border changes and mass population transfers, because it was done under Allied jurisdiction. In essence, if the German Reich had continued, then the Allies could have been legally liable for various acts. Also, by claiming sovereignty, the Allies could make sure that they controlled the restoration of the territory.

They also used their position to claim German assets abroad, for instance. It also means that Germany has no claim against the Allies for what they did (for instance, the destruction of Dresden) because there is no legal continuity. They were also effectively forced into accepting that the Federal Republic 'is the land of all the Germans' and that there are no more territories housing German people - so they can never make a claim against Polish territory for instance.

It's not the only time that this has happened - the 1992 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was denied the right to be the successor state to the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, for instance. From what I remember, quite a bit of SFRY property located outside the former Yugoslavia (especially embassies) was lying empty for years until they agreed how to divide it between themselves.

So, you can say that the slate was wiped clean, but they also lost the ability to make claims of their own, and they had to accept their country being shaped by the Allies rather than by the Germans themselves.

So, any territorial claims of today German state are invalid and null by default.

Correct. There's no legal basis for Germany to make any territorial claims. If anyone in Germany tries to make such a claim, they can be laughed at. It's the same reason why Germans can't try and claim properties here.
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,734
@Tacitus, you're quite reasonable man, for a German, so imagine this future situation:

> Poland wants WWII compensations from Germany

> Germany says: - No way! We won't give you a single euro Polen

> The result is that we're in a clinch situation here

> Yet Poland doesn't forget about rightful reparations and keeps mentioning them on occasions and also uses it as a tool in negotiations with Germany to puts some pressure on the opponent

> The more Poland grows - economically and politically - the greater the soft power of the country becomes and the voice of Poland is better heard around the world

> And here's the best thing: all that Poland says its truth . As simple as that. Not some anti-German propaganda but hard facts. Poland only mention about German crimes on Polish land during WWII, commemorates it, make movies, internet videos and TV spots about it, writes books and articles to the press, makes computer games with Polish narrative, street banners and more. WWII, Nazis etc. is still a very attractive subject to capture the world's attention.

> How is Germany going to battle that? With lies? With German propaganda? That worked in the 30's but not in the age of the internet

> So the only thing Germany can do is to remain silent ... and count losses

> Now let's look at the position Germany who worked so hard to build a brand for their own country after WWII and to become such a "likeable state with civilized citizens" and an "export champion"

> At what point the cost of the damage to that image would be greater than rightful war compensations that have to be paid for Poland?
Tacitus 1 | 764    
3 Nov 2018  #1,735
And here's the best thing: all that Poland says its truth . As simple as that. Not some anti-German propaganda but hard facts.

This is where you are wrong. The facts regarding war reparations are all on Germany's side. The question regarding war reparations has been settled in several binding treaties. And PiS knows this which is why they are forced to get creative in their arguments.

You are also mistaking with your argument about the passage of time. Time is on Germany's side in this argument. With every year that passes, Poland loses the moral argument and it becomes more and more ridiculous to claim 1tn reparations from the great-grandparents of the culprits. Once the last WWII surivor dies, it will become as ridiculous as e.g. demanding reparations for the Napoleonic Wars.

as a tool in negotiations with Germany to puts some pressure on the opponent

It would pressure on the opponent if that would deemed as a valid argument. The German government knows that those claims are invalid and thus simply ignore them. The irony is that among all of Germany's victims during the war, Poland -despite suffering the most - has the weakest claim for reparations because several Polish governments - including the democratic elected ones - have waved Poland's right to reparations several times over.

So, any territorial claims of today German state are invalid and null by default.

That is true. Germany waved the claim to its' former territories in the same treaties that included Polish demands for reparations. If you deem those treaties as invalid to justify war reparations, you would also invalid the German agreement to forgo claims to former territories. Then again, Poland can not unilaterally refute those treaties within international law, so this is all purely academical.

It is also true that sometimes moral pressure can be used against some countries as a tool, but without any legal foundation, they have little influence.

For example both Greece and Namibia have received some support even by German politicians, because they can rightfully point out that not all matters of reparations have been permanently settled. Germany never paid reparations to Namibia, and never made any agreement regarding the loan it forcibly took from Greece during WWII. However Polish claims have not received any support, precisely because they have no legal foundation.
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,736
This is where you are wrong. The facts regarding war reparations are all on Germany's side

I meant solid facts about World War II and German crimes. Strong emotional content based on facts. Do you think that most people in the world would give a damn about your slippery lawyers lingo? All that they would see is a victim and an aggressor. And the fact that aggressor doesn't want to compensate for his crimes.

But I bet such a fine orator as yourself would convince them otherwise :-)

With every year that passes, Poland loses the moral argument and it becomes more and more ridiculous to claim

So you proved me right, that a moral argument - and not a messy legal one - would be decisive here

Germany never paid reparations to Namibia, and never made any agreement regarding the loan it forcibly took from Greece

Poland is not Namibia, nor Greece. Buckle up, my friend :-)
Tacitus 1 | 764    
3 Nov 2018  #1,737
All that they would see is a victim and an aggressor. And the fact that aggressor doesn't want to compensate for his crimes.

The impression is that the grand-children of the culprits are not going to pay a tn€ to the grand-children of the victims who already received compensation.

, that a moral argument - and not a messy legal one - would be decisive here

A moral argument can be decisive if it can be supported by a legal argument. The legal argument is already completely on Germany's side, and the moral one is very questionable, and getting weaker with time.

Poland is not Namibia, nor Greece. Buckle up, my friend :-)

Yes, we might end up paying to Namibia and Greece. But thankfully, that is not the case with Poland ;)
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
3 Nov 2018  #1,738
The legal argument is already completely on Germany's side, and the moral one is very questionable, and getting weaker with time.

No-one cares about this 'claim', because it's obvious that it's all theatre intended for domestic consumption.

Our friend here seems remarkably unwilling to discuss the issue of Poland getting repatriations from Russia, which clearly shows that the issue is dictated by politics and not by moral argument.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,739
Poland could go to any international court if they mean it...but on legal grounds they would lose and they know it, that's why they don't. So it's tried with political pressure...good luck! :)

Not to forget that one requirement for membership in the EU is the closure of open conflicts to avoid that the EU "inherits" conflicts between members. A demand for reparation from another member is for sure an open conflict. I dare even say that a membership had not been possible if Poland back then had claimed any legal rights of further reparations from Germany. That leaves only one conclusion, it's over and done!

All tries to keep that topic in the headlines is made by PiS totally for domestic reasons only...you fall for that at your own peril!

Yes, we might end up paying to Namibia....

Agreed. Namibia is still an open case...they got no compensation whatsoever...no legal closure too, as far as I know.

Our friend here seems remarkably unwilling to discuss the issue of Poland getting repatriations from Russia,

Astounding, isn't it.... :)

I doubt Russia has subscribed to the same treaties as Germany and Poland have..so a polish claim for russian reparations should have better prospects of success than getting some from Germany!
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
3 Nov 2018  #1,740
There's actually a solid claim for the damage done by the Russian forces in Poland between 1992-1994 - they left former Soviet bases in a terrible way, including plenty of ecological damage. Yet PiS say nothing about it, and you have to ask yourself why.

Most independent commentators seem to agree that the whole thing is a very clumsy attempt to blackmail Germany ahead of the next budget negotiations. It's not going to work, and might actually badly backfire.


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