"It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland)

Yes neurosis. Numerous German politicians, including Merkel, have said that Germany has an 'obligation take in refugees/migrants because of our history'

That's the neurosis I'm talking about - feeling like you must atone for the sins of past generations. That's entirely different from Poland and now Greece asking Germany for reparations which they never paid.


Yes, but that doesn't mean we need to take in non-EU citizens and have taxpayers provide them with houses, food, money, etc. while they lounge around for generations and pop out more burdens for European natives to take care of.

....again, it's our neighbours which are very much interested that we never forget the sins of past generations!

And again, if you want reparations than give us back our territory (Poland) and give us back our money (Greece) first. Both must be worth many billions by now...to deny that as reparations is ridiculous!

And yes, our neighbours keep this neurosis very much alive, because it suits them! ;)


No, it doesn't. And I hope Germany stops doing that too...

Delphy no mates.

It was the "fault" of the burgeoning Federal Republic and her awkward ministrations towards a pro-democracy, almost "American" style of governmental
leadership which was chiefly to blame.

Had there been no Second World War, obviously, the German government wouldn't have seen the need to try to forcibly integrate often non-integratables
into society.

This was the government's uncomfortable way of trying to make amends for the unamendable, to mend a fence which could never be mended.
While it does take two to tango, the fact remains that in the beginning of the 1960's this idea of community outreach for newly arrived foreign-born settlers didn't exist in Germany, then, a predominantly homogeneous, nominally Christian, country with little of England's, France's or America's experience of natually integrating, that is, "naturalizing" dark-skinned non-Europeans.

It's been tough ever since and for a difficult start, there surely are no easy answers!

Poland the inner country ? Have you ever seen the map of EU ?

Is Germany lost? Sure, in more than one way.

On my way back from Amsterdam 3 years ago I stopped by a petrol station near Berlin.
Since I drove for quite a long time without stopping I wanted to eat something and then to use a toilet.

So I asked the staff where's the toilet (nota bene, in Germany you can't just ask staff a direct question - you have to ring a small bell first to get their attention) and he pointed me towards a shady building nearby.

And then I saw it. It was the FILTHIEST TOILET that I've ever seen in my entire life. Forget about "the worst toilet in Scotland" from Trainspotting. That German toiled was so dirty and smelly that I've almost vomited straight away. It smelled like a rotting zombie who just had a massive crap after eating sauerkaut and bratwurst for the whole previous night.

In that moment I stopped believing in a mythical German "ordnung". To me Germany will remind that filthy toilet for the rest of my days I think...

Sad but true.

oh come on Spike, it can't have been THAT bad, surely?

Germany was where I first came across the 'self cleaning toilet' where the seat starts whirling round if you don't get out fast enough...

It was worse than you can imagine. I wish I was blessed with Charles Baudelaire's talent for a few precious moments so I could describe it properly cause I'm feeling I was too delicate

oh gross...your comparison with the bog in Trainspotting has left me feeling a little ill...:D:D

One reason: men habitually p*** standing. which is really stupid when you can actually sit down. Another benefit of pissing sitting is you don't have to aim it as precisely and you can wipe it dry when done. But, men are stubborn idiots in this regard. Guys, there are some thing we could learn from the ladies.

Spike31,

One might argue that every since re-unification, even BEFORE run-away globalization, Germany had become overcrowded with former residents from the Old East
Zone, later millions of visitors and tourists streaming annually into the country and taxing an already overburdened infrastructure!

Filthy pissoirs? Scarcely surprising. Nearly eighteen years ago when last in Berlin, I too was struck by the grime and how different things were from when I lived in the Federal Republic as a young student in the '80's.

"Deutsche Ordnung"?? Even the Nazis couldn't have foreseen the overwhelming, truly incomprehensible changes to our entire planet with her mega population shifts and growth.

Orderliness typically works best in an easily managable aka maliable, society, something which Germany of the present AIN'T!!!
:-)

This sentence may apply to nature. Demographic changes are man-made, made by stupid men who refuse to see beyond the immediate gratification of feeeeeling good and the next election. That is why the China model of one-party, iron-fist rule is sustainable, and the Western pussy-soft way is not. Period. End of the thesis on the survivability of societies.

Rome fell because they got decadent and pussy-soft.

Might be!

But I for one are glad not to live in the West and not to suffer in China. And most think like me.

That's one hell of an advantage for the survivability of societies!

Me too. But does not make my claim untrue.
China today has a lot of happy and very rich people. It will take a while to get out of the hole China has been in for centuries.

To their credit, the Chinese commies looked at the USSR and how it imploded, and decided to create a new, and so far successful, hybrid of political monopoly combined with an economic system that is actually more capitalistic than what we have in the US and you in Europe. Today, the only question is when, not if, China will be #1.

They must be doing something right or we must be the biggest ******** ever for this to be even remotely possible.

Thats the big thing people keep forgetting, China looks so good (from the outside) because of the deep hole they have to climb out of. If you are on top of the world already like the western countries it's hard to see any rise, that doesn't mean China's system is more successful.


If we keep on fighting each other like Trump wants (MAGA) they for sure will, that's why he is such a catastrophe for the whole West. China is applauding!

But maybe that's the price to pay for being "the West", the joy and the curse to have different opinions and policies, no strong party/leader which forces his will on the people for the price of secret police, censorship, indoctrination and Gulags!

No, China is not applauding Trump. They hate Trump because he called them out on their predatory tactics and slapped tariffs on their exports. If the US and Europe quit feeding this monster, it would collapse. I don't want to start another prolonged war about tariffs but if tariffs were so bad for the US, in the zero sum world, they would be good for China. They are not.

The argument that tariffs start trade wars is as stupid, considering that we have been in trade wars since the beginning of time, as that the US landing in Normandy would lead to more casualties. I used this as an example, not because you are German. Nothing personal.

It will collapse at some point anyhow but not because of foreign enemies.

As you said millions of Chinese live better now than 50 years back, forget about the super rich for a moment, they are usually totally party loyalists because the system is so useful if you know how to swim with it.

But these rising living standards especially in and around the new mega cities also changes how these Chinese see the world, a new educated, affluent middle class is building, and as in Europe centuries back they will demand more power and influence than the party will want to give them.

At some point the autoritharian one party rule will no longer be enough. Millions of people will be no longer obedient illiterate farmers! THAT will be the turning point in China, the moment the chinese people grow out of their strict party straight jacket...and that is only a matter of time!

Their economical rise will proof to be a double headed sword...it wont be the smooth way to the top some dream of.

Just for fun

How right you are, Rich!

The more reason why until the tide of unbridled cross-territorial, not to mention cross-continental, migration is somehow halted by responsible governments, things will doubtless get unfortunately far worse long before they get better.

Merkel's a fine woman with a conscience rare these days, especially in post-Wall Europe, but her sentiments are largely misplaced and are heading
her country straight towards disaster. If heaven forbid, the far-right threaten the present balance, and Germany goes the way of Sweden, Denmark, in particular Orban's Hungary, G-d help us all, everyone.

@Rich Mazur

Trump is the best thing that could happen to Poland right now. And not because he is on our side but precisely because he is disrupting an already established political-economic order. He is our ticket out of "mitteleuropa" politically and economically controlled by Germany. Poland is on the rise and Western Europe doesn't like that fact that they'll have to share the power, wealth and influence and that they will have to compete with a new dynamic economy. Especially since we don't share their "progressive" values we're being seen as intruders and only tolerated as "poor cousins" that just have to keep their mouth shut and nod.

The problem though is that Trump is an advocate of "simple" solutions to age-old difficult problems which aren't going to be solved by "machine-gun" diplomacy!

Liberal and progressive programs have had questionable success for the rank-and-file middle-class American and European, fair enough. Yet, by throwing the crying baby out with the bathwater, no one's taken the time to discover why the baby was crying in the first place.

If the alternative is only a return to faschism, I think we ought to examine the failures of liberalism before we start beating the drums of totalitarianism.

Fuelled entirely by EU cash. If Western Europe wants to send Poland down, it'll be enough to relocate to Slovakia en masse.

I almost wish we could meet over a beer to have such discussions...
In the meantime, I will respectfully disagree. My view of such matters is that upheavals and uprisings need street crowds to be compelling and scary to the rulers. Happy and affluent people are risk averse and would rather stay home and watch sports than risk whatever they achieved. I am in that group and, my age aside, that is why I never did or will fight the "system". I am too selfish for that. Being married and having kids to feed reduces the desire to hit the streets to zero. The Chinese top knows it.

Western Europe has become rich. It also became more complacent rather than less, as with the refugees, for example.
Recently, things are changing in the right direction but it's too late to undo the damage. Preventing more damage? Maybe. We will see if you (plural) have the determination to stay the new course. Unfortunately, a couple of crumbs thrown at the right time and people fold. The wall in the US is a good example of that.

Nah...you are talking about the "plebs"...I'm talking about those with the money...in high positions...

Even a party leader doesn't act in a vacuum, he needs people to fulfill his wishes. And the wealthier Chinese become, the more educated and influential they get, the more dependent the party and it's leaders becomes on their money, on their support. That is already happening. The party needs the rich traders, builders, entrepreneurs...totally contrary to their touted communist ideals. Their whole government has become already a farce, a game most still play along with though.

But there will be a time when the party leader becomes a puppet of chinese money...of chinese people who only talk the party talk but live totally differently than their parents.

And at some point they will even stop to pretend.

It won't be a bloody revolution where the old guard get's shot or jailed...it will be a fluid change of power, taking years. Maybe they will keep their party for romantic reasons, like the monarchy in Britain! :)

The quoted sentence is very applicable to the US where it takes a billion to be elected president. China has no elections, hence, no need for money to stay in power. A couple of thousand loyal army men with real machine guns loaded with real bullets are a perfect substitute for elections. Remember 1989 and the tanks?


To create wealth and pay taxes, not to give the communists power and the guns they already have, minus any real opposition.
When that moron, Nixon, hugged Mao and "opened the door to China", the US naively thought that the process you are hoping for will take place and soon. Nothing of the sort happened. Instead, China, by our own admission, has become a bigger threat to the US than ever.

Finally, why would the Chinese commies and anyone with them want a change? To turn China into the mess they see in the US and Europe, while they are getting everything they want and everybody falling over each other to appease them, including Google? What would those high ranking rebels want instead? They are, like the top, not stupid. Only we and Europe are.

That would be North Korea...or Venezuela...or Cuba. They have all that but nobody fears their taking over the top, nobody sees them as rivals of the West.

To become what you fear China needs the money, the entrepreneurs, the traders, the builders, the inventors. To rise further economically and intellectually they need an educated and increasingly affluent people. They need the money, they bring. No army ruling over illiterate farmers cowed into submission can buy you that!

That's the irony but also the consolation of this...a modern, powerful China equal with the West will be soon also plagued with all our western curses too!

A huge equalizer! :)

PS: I'm not quite sure why you insist on downtalking the West at every turn. I for one are glad to live here, after growing up in China style country, I can compare.

Simple. The US and Europe are not sustainable. This is where it starts and ends. All else is entertainment. Change the time scale and you can say that Titanic was a great deal because they were serving free drinks in the last 20 minutes.

The US because of (1) Latino invasion changing us into the sh**holes these people are running from and (2) the runaway and unpayable debt putting a very big question mark over our Social Security and health care - all within my lifetime. Europe - mainly (1) except that your invasion is a lot worse. To me, Europe is irrelevant so I am just watching amazed.


They already have that. Those people are already rich and happy. They own properties in the US, are free to travel and have fun. Why would they want to change the system?

I left Poland ONLY because my salary was a cruel joke. If I had a chance to be financially OK, I would have never left. Communism never bothered me and they never bothered me. Life was sweet, except that my starting paycheck would only cover trips to work and lunch in the company cafeteria. That's it.

I have the West see winning hands down against an enemy who had all that you seemingly so adore and in the end it didn't help them one bit. They lost the people!

I think we have just to agree to disagree here...

@delphiandomine


I wouldn't be so sure of that. The EU funds are not free: they come with a hefty price of the EU regulations. And the money is also spend in a way that the EU approves. Let's say we loose the EU funds and gain the free market and low tax rates. That would give us much bigger economical boost that we have now.

So my point is that Poland is growing not because of the EU but DESPITE the EU (we flourish thanks to a common market by choke because of the regulations). The only way to prove it is to actually do it.

Let's observe changes in the post-Brexit UK and then make a decision. If the UK choose to become a free market economy with minimal welfare state it will economically weaken the old EU, countries like France especially. The UK has already received more direct foreign investments in 2017 than Germany and France combined! (Poland was third on that list right after the UK and minimally behind Germany)

No....another Ukraine is more like it.


I'm just glad most Poles aren't willing to gamble with their lives to "prove" something...


It will weaken the common people, it will strengthen the rich and super rich....how that should weaken the EU is beyond me. The whole Brexit is a game by those few rich who actually profit from paying less taxes for the infrastructure and alot less labour laws and other "stupid" regulations. The stupid sheep will pay the price!

Next you will say Poland can go it alone on the world market, it will be equal to China, Russia and the US...and the EU will suffer for it.

In what world are you living???

Yep the sheeples will pay and soon, i agree Bratwurst, watch the excrement hit the fan.