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"It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland)


Lyzko 18 | 5,309    
12 Oct 2018  #1,111
Dirk,

Take a gentle look ever so far back to the late sixties and particularly to American TV reportage concerning "violent crimes committed by black males throughout

our country.."

Well, there were the Watts riots, of course, can't forget about those. However, the particular bias back then of mostly white, mainstream media coverage of so-called "bad neighborhoods" across the entire United States, rarely if ever, reported similar to identical violent crimes committed by white males against other white males; instead, the focus or bias tended to stress the shootings etc. in already economically depressed areas, such as Watts in L.A., Chicago's South Side, New York's Harlem and Bedford-Stuyvesant, NEVER on what was going on in places such as Greenwich, Conn and so forth, as white-collar violence such as domestic abuse among the rich, was barely even mentioned in public, much less in the press:-)

In Northern Europe, I'd imagine the situation is much the same these days too.

Dark-skinned foreigners are always easy scapegoats, and this isn't a "sob story", it's a plain fact of life. If two people in Stockholm, for example, are caught attacking someone with a knife, and one of them is an inebriated Swede, while the other is a down-on-his luck male Somali teen, whom are the police likely to suspect of instigating the act? Needn't think hard to answer that one:-)
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
12 Oct 2018  #1,112
rarely if ever, reported similar to identical violent crimes committed by white males against other white males; instead, the focus or bias tended

Lyzko, if the media focused on black people shooting others, usually another black, there wouldnt be anything else on the news. Also it wouldn't change the FACT that despite being a minority about 13% of us population, they are responsible for the majority of murders. In my city, Chicago they're responsible for ovwr 80% of the murders. Neither would it change the FACT that 1 out of 3 black men either have been, are or will go to prison in one point in their lives.

Dark-skinned foreigners are always easy scapegoats, and this isn't a "sob story", it's a plain fact of life

Maybe if they werent comitting basically all the terror attacks and the majority of murders (arpund 56% of murders in germany were by a foreigner) and thousands of sexual assaults and rapes.

A muslim driving into a crowd isnt even important news anyway now that people have got so use to it. When a muslim drove into a crowd recently in france it wasnt even headline news worthy it was a side story thats how desensitized the population has become to Muslims using cars to culturally enrich crowds.

Maybe if they stopped pillaging and raping then they wouldnt be talked about now would they? But they wont and everyone knows that - save for people like tacitus who worship merkel and defend her every fuckup and refuse to acknowledge the fact that foreigners are driving the violent crime, rape and terror in europe. And as long as that keeps happening and people are sick and tired of their tax money going to support these *****, 75% of whom arent employed according to german government and wont be for 5+ years, then you wouldnt have so many people voting for anti migrant populist parties

while the other is a down-on-his luck male Somali teen, whom are the police likely to suspect of instigating the act?

The smellian teen of course, because theyre the ones throwing hand grenades and killing innocent people and raping thousands of women. Thw pussy swedish males didnt even do jack sh1t when a muzzie sat next to a young blonde swede amd started jacking off in front of everyone no one bothered to step in and bash his skull in or throw him off the bus, preferablt while moving and into oncoming traffic
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
12 Oct 2018  #1,113
If two people in Stockholm, for example

That "If" is all I need. The rest of your post are just empty words.
I don't need any "ifs" to make my points. I cite the FBI and the CDC statistics. No "ifs" in those.
Lyzko 18 | 5,309    
13 Oct 2018  #1,114
You're merely reiterating age-old stereotypes and feeding the sorts of fallacies which contribute to the promulgation of further prejudice
and negative stereotyping of "others".
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
13 Oct 2018  #1,115
...like that Gypsies are thieves and parasites? I wonder where that awful accusation came from.
Lyzko 18 | 5,309    
13 Oct 2018  #1,116
And who put them in that position??!

Not ALL Sinti-Roma are as you describe and yet if one of them commits a crime, it's as though they all did, and this is what is known as a double standard.

You really have to watch that rigidity in thinking, Rich, it'll warp your whole personality.
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
13 Oct 2018  #1,117
Too late, I am already warped.
Funny, though, that Norwegians, for example, are not perceived as thieves and parasites but the Gypsies are. Any idea why?
That "not all" argument has been abused so much and is so pointless that I am really surprised you would actually reuse it. Hitler was't always a bad guy, doesn't sound acceptable, does it? Or how about: Not all SS Auschwitz guards were bad guys.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,118
It isn't the Muslims...or Sinti...it's about Identities.

washingtonpost.com/news/theworldpost/wp/2018/09/18/identity-politics/?utm_term=.22b0c0e7f15c

Fukuyama is right IMHO. What happens in the US and also in Europe is that the white majority nations discover themselves also as one identity.

Something that was before firmly in leftist hands...you know the fight for the acceptance and the support of the rights of identities of blacks, gays, women, transgender, immigrants etc.

Now that ideal comes back to bite them in the ass, more or less....the rediscovered white identity as a political power alongside the identities of immigrants, muslims etc. will become a most powerful one, and if only by numbers. Don't get me wrong, not INSTEAD but alongside...just another one added, that's the difference to Hitler fans or any ethnical cleansing fantasy of some fascho.

That is a movement which is just about to beginn in earnest (a president Trump not withstanding, I doubt he has any idea about identity politics). Because for a majority in the US and Europe a white identity was never a question to think about, even less so to especially support. There wasn't any need to. The mass immigration of the last years changed that. The awareness of the natives that they might be threatened is growing. The rise of populists politicians and party's everywhere in the West is proof of that.

And yes, that will change our societies. The old party system has no answer to that as the old political class is made up and made for a more or less homogenous people with the same values, a common people, that ends now. There won't be one people to rule over for very much longer but split groups fighting each other for power and influence.

A real new age! But fitting for a globalized world where national borders lose their importance.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
13 Oct 2018  #1,119
and feeding the sorts of fallacies which contribute to the promulgation of further prejudice and negative stereotyping of "others".

Fallacies? Negative stereotyping? I know you dont go to Poland very often but if you did and went to the major cities i guaruntee youd see women forcing kids to beg. And i can guaruntee you that theyll be gypsies. These ***** have had centuries to get their sh1t together. Theres no excuse for living the way they do in the modern day.

I am so sick of people saying oh youre perpetuating stereotypes when you say roma are thieves and muslims are rapists and terrorists. No, its an observation and obviously when that observation is reinforced by those peoples actions more and more make the same observation and repeat what they see. If blacks stopped comitting the majority of the murders other Americans wouldn't look at them like criminals. If roma stopped stealing and forcing their kids to beg then maybe europeans wouldn't consider then low lifes. If muslims stopped committing terror attacks and raping europeans then people wouldnt be scared everytime they see a neckbeard or ninja on the bus.

Poles were called dumb polak for decades in the usa. Now you dont hear that, do you? Now why is that? Its not because people stopped perpetuating stereotypes, its because polish people did. Poles now own businesses, are educated, live in nice homes and drive expensive cars. That didnt happen overnight and most poles had to learn the language, culture all that from scratch. Theres no reason why muslims roma etc cant change stereotypes about them. But they dont want to they perpetuate it by living the same lifestyle as they always have.
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
13 Oct 2018  #1,120
Poles were called dumb polak for decades in the usa. Now you dont hear that, do you?

I am glad you mentioned that. "Dumb Polack" was very popular as a put-down when I came here in 1967. My reaction, and I mean verbal, was very unpleasant to the offenders. That was the end of "dumb Polack in my presence at least. Later, as you said, it just went away. Poland being a loyal ally of the US, may have helped, too.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,121
I don't think so....Poland was a most loyal ally during WWII too, and it didn't helped with the dumb, backward stereotype one bit.

I think the positive change has much more to do with the current economical devolopment of Poland. As an emigrant you will also always be seen as a kind of representative of your home country, even as you just have left it behind, if you want to or not.

So a more respected Poland, a rising economical "tiger", a member of the EU, has of course changed how the world sees Poles generally.

That's what most immigrants from "shithole" countries face today too...their home countries are dirt poor and war ravaged, so the image of these immigrants is similiar bad...
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
13 Oct 2018  #1,122
That's what most immigrants from "shithole" countries face today too...

The obvious difference is that I came here legally while most of the s***heads do not. Secondly, with my arrival the average American IQ, income and quality of life went up. The s***heads are a drag. Huge difference.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,123
For you for sure...for the general stereotype of the "dumb Polack" not.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
13 Oct 2018  #1,124
Later, as you said, it just went away. Poland being a loyal ally of the US, may have helped, too.

Not really.

I think the positive change has much more to do with the current economical devolopment of Poland.

Also no, according to a recent news article most americans still view poland as a country with low wages and little opportunities. Most Americans have no clue whos american allies are and arent. I dont think most americans could even tell you where poland lies in europe and what its capital is.

It has everything to do with the way poles are seen in cities and states where theres a lot of them - chicago, nyc, nj, Detroit prior to white flight, etc. When poles first came to the us we lived no different than mexicans do when they first arrive. In fact in Chicago until maybe the past 10 20 years, mexicans and poles shared the same neighborhoods. Even when i was a kid all my friends were either poles or mexicans. To this day i work alongside mexicans because we get along better and work together better than any other groups. Most poles when they first came lived in sh1tty houses and apartments and worked blue collar jobs. Even the educated poles worked in such jobs bc pf the language barrier and it was much easier for them to get into a job doing construction cleaning or whatever. Now fast forward a few decades and these same poles now own their own firms employing poles and latinos. Theyre buying houses in the suburbs and driving german cars. Very few poles lived in wasp suburbs in the 70s 80s 90s but now theres a ton. Once people saw poles gaining wealth and then sending their kids off to college and in turn becoming doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc thats when the perception changed and the dumb polak faded in memory.

their home countries are dirt poor and war ravaged, so the image of these immigrants is similiar bad...

I disagree. For example, india is a poor country. However in the us indians are viewed as wealthy and educated. In fact indians as an ethnic group command the highest average income in the us - over 100k, double the us average. Same thing with the chinese. The people there are poor compared to the west but most Chinese are highly educated and wealthy.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,125
I disagree. For example, india is a poor country. However in the us indians are viewed as wealthy and educated.

Hmm....interesting thought...

But compare two immigrants...one comes from for example stinking rich Kuwait and the other comes from destroyed, starving Jemen. Both are dark and muslim.

I'm somewhat sure only one of them will be welcomed, whereas the other will rather be kept away....
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
13 Oct 2018  #1,126
In the us, much as europe they would be just another arab muslim and likely live among other muslims, speak arabic, etc further reinforcing that theyre simply another muslim not a kuwaiti or yemeni or whatever.
Lyzko 18 | 5,309    
13 Oct 2018  #1,127
When I was last in Europe at the start of 2001, post 9/11,Germans in Berlin were constantly protesting negative attitudes towards Turks.
What happened?
delphy no mates    
13 Oct 2018  #1,128
Successive generation of Turks still refuse to integrate and show a stronger loyalty to Turkey than Germany.

It takes two to tango.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,129
Successive generation of Turks still refuse to integrate and show a stronger loyalty to Turkey than Germany.

Fit's the identity theory!

There won't be another homogenous people made up from many heritages, as the multi-kulti theory believed for so long. Instead the immigrant societies will split up into groups who don't plan to assimilate into a new people but want to kept their own heritage. And fully understandable so I might add.

So the future will be even more of Turkey-loyal Turks and less german-Turks.

Multi-Kulti is dead, Identity movements will shape our future world.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
13 Oct 2018  #1,130
Successive generation of Turks still refuse to integrate and show a stronger loyalty to Turkey than Germany.

And yet the Turks are still considered the more 'assimilated' Muslims out of the bunch... there's a lot of them in Dortmund

Multi-Kulti is dead, Identity movements will shape our future world.

Indeed. The funny thing is the Multikulti liberals brought it upon themselves. If they hadn't allowed a deluge of migrants into Europe you wouldn't have all these right wing parties winning all over the place. In a way that makes me happy, but I'd rather take right wing parties be unsuccessful and Europe remain European. Even just 10 years ago in Italy you wouldn't see many Africans. You'd see a few in the squares selling knock off handbags and such, but now there's loads of them everywhere you look.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,131
The funny thing is the Multikulti liberals brought it upon themselves.

The whole identity movement was started by the leftists. Now the conservatives/rightists are taking it up and will run with it. Oh the irony...

but I'd rather take right wing parties be unsuccessful and Europe remain European.

No, that won't happen. The next decades will bring big changes to the world...globalization, digitalization, mass immigration...there is no chance for anything to remain.

(Besides North Korea maybe and even that is a big IF.)

Better to prepare and find new answers....I think identity politics also for the native majority of european countries could be such a possibility. Taking care of your own in the similiar way the muslims, blacks etc. take care of their own.

Wishing back the past on the other hand won't help one bit with the challenges of the future...
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
13 Oct 2018  #1,132
Indeed. But there's no reason why Poland can't still remain a homogenous country and only take in other Europeans (actual Europeans) and only those migrants that are educated and wealthy. As long as Poland doesn't have a big welfare system that hands out apartments, money and food to migrants from middle east and Africa like candy they won't come flooding in and we can keep our zero Islamic terror record and rapes down to a minimum.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,133
There is no reason at all...no.

But there are some things Poland won't be able to change, one is the globalization. That means that national borders will lose their importance, the movement of goods and people will only rise in the future.

The other thing is that success makes attractive. And a country which is economically attractive will attract immigration. So, keeping the total homogenity is an illusion.

And it isn't about muslims from far away places but mainly from other Europeans. Mostly they look today to Germany for work and study. There is no reason that an economically successful Poland won't be in the sights of other european people. Today most immigrants in Europe are not Muslims but other Europeans. As a member of the EU that is something Poland can't and shouldn't fight.

What Poland should do better than for example Germany is to be carefull in the selection. Meaning, be more like Canada or Australia, try to get immigrants which will become an asset to Poland.

Germany get's for years not the best of the best but the "rest" nobody else wants, but that is a fault of our non-existent immigration plan and our on the other hand abuse-inviting asylum-laws, all due our Nazi history. Something Poland doesn't has.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,889    
13 Oct 2018  #1,134
No the difference is Poland doesn't have a permanent neurosis where people feel like they most atone for previous generations' sins. Germany has that, especially Merkel and seemingly can't shed it. Even when a guy from AfD says that WW2 was merely a few bad years out of a proud thousand year German history he gets criticized by every leftist MSM outlet for it.

hat means that national borders will lose their importance, the movement of goods and people will only rise in the future.

I agree with the goods and movement of people. But borders? I don't think so. If anything there's more and more of a push to secure borders now - both due to migration and military aggression, especially in Eastern Europe.
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
13 Oct 2018  #1,135
Beside borders, they will need draconian penalties for trespassers. Just as I have at my disposal at home - including the death penalty. No migrants, no rapes. Funny how it works at my place without ICE, Border Patrol, and asylum hearings.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,136
No the difference is Poland doesn't have a permanent neurosis

Neurosis?

This past is something our neighbours like to beat us with...just recently some Poles renewed their claims for german reparations. Whenever Berlin does something which some people don't like they are quick with painting the Merkel as "Nazi" whenever it fits their agenda.

That is no imagined neurosis but very much alive! Kept alive by our dearest neighbours, I might add! :)

But borders? I don't think so.

When goods and people move even more freely what do you think does that mean for borders?

We see the change today in Europe...borders between the countries in the Schengen zone is nearly non-existent anymore.

A border around the EU countries, guarded together by all members, would also much better take care of unwanted and illegal immigration, then there would be no inner EU-borders needed anymore.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,885    
13 Oct 2018  #1,137
Bingo. There should have been no Schengen without a single Schengen border guard, which would be tasked specifically with defending the external border and could operate anywhere needed without national parliaments holding a veto. If countries like Greece didn't want it, then they didn't have to join Schengen.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,138
I think it will come to that.

As the Schengen-Zone was thought up and installed nobody thought about these foreign masses proverbially dying to come to Europe. Frontex is a good start but there is still alot to do....

What definitely has to change ist the current fact that the outer borders are mainly seen as a matter only of the border countries like Greece or Italy and inner countries like Germany or Poland just look on, twiddling their thumbs and shrug their shoulders.

That won't work for very much longer...
Rich Mazur 5 | 2,237    
13 Oct 2018  #1,139
nobody thought about these foreign masses proverbially dying to come to Europe.

???
The concept of doors and fences was just created? Why did we have them for centuries? You are a nice guy but that lame excuse is really beneath you.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
13 Oct 2018  #1,140
Why did we have them for centuries?

Because of the creation of the nation states. When you open up a history book you will see that this concept is not old...it has proven a step up to the way societies had been ruled before. Centuries where borders were unknown, with goods and people already moving at will.

Nation states were also a consequence of a changing age, similiar to what we are living through today. And they proved to be immensely successful.

But now the world changes again, thanks to technology. A nation state only for itself is a phase-out model. The future are federations of former nation states, economical blocs. Countries which can add their resources and capabilities to be stronger or at least as equally strong than the other building power blocs. The future world will be partitioned by these blocs. To make sure Europe get's it's share we NEED the EU. And an even more integrated EU at that.

No nation state can hope to keep it's wealth and living standard alone by itself against such a power bloc. So in these building blocs former borders will become a thing of the past. That is also one development no foot stamping and denial will stop.

You are a nice guy but that lame excuse is really beneath you.

These developments will come, they are already on the horizon, if you look closely (just watch China, they are already laying claims)...and they have nothing to do with me being a nice guy or not! :)


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