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"It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland)


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #901
there's always bound to be extreme friction

*nods*
Lyzko 18 | 5,285    
4 Oct 2018  #902
I presume then that means you agree?
Miloslaw 8 | 874    
4 Oct 2018  #903
I'm sure BB does agree,as I do too.
Crow 146 | 7,594    
4 Oct 2018  #904
Can one honestly speak of the "Balkanization" of Poland?

Now it strictly depend on Vatican and mix of power and influence that encompass Vatican`s and western European interests.

Why Vatican? It represent strongest `universalistic` option in Poland. Poles feel Slavic but its now marginalized feeling. Marginalized but still strong enough to be able to compete (at least virtually) with Vatican`s universalism.

Add more Vatican`s and western European input, add more input of the opposition from non-Catholic Slavic countries and you got it- Balkanization of Poland.
Lyzko 18 | 5,285    
4 Oct 2018  #905
Seems a no brainer....to nearly everyone except Angela Merkel!
Boy this lady's clueless. Well-intentioned perhaps as she may be, she has managed to make
a rather horrid mess of things, hasn't she.
Crow 146 | 7,594    
4 Oct 2018  #907
You may say its Angela but, I clearly see her role. She just have her role. You better ask what is Duda`s role.

See, Duda seams to me, represent `universalistic` option and that, as we all know, exclude patriotic option.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #908
Seems a no brainer....to nearly everyone except Angela Merkel!

What brings that on? Haven't you been always rather a defender of her?
Crow 146 | 7,594    
4 Oct 2018  #909
He now see that Merkel`s Jewish husband isn`t of some help. Or maybe he is.

While you all fear from Balkanization, EU would become like Israel.
Crnogorac3 1 | 330    
4 Oct 2018  #910
Crow, the dissolution of Yugoslavia happened

youtu.be/GzMKgeESSu4
youtu.be/S2xNHknsQPI

French General Pierre Marie Gallois- Truth About NATO Bombing of Yugoslavia 1999

He explains in detail the role of Germany in arming the separatists & in the the break-up of Yugoslavia.
Crow 146 | 7,594    
4 Oct 2018  #911
French General Pierre Marie Gallois- Truth About NATO Bombing of Yugoslavia 1999

Yes, and brat Jerzy Robert Nowak spoke of it on Radio Maryja, too.

Rola Niemiec w rozbiciu Jugosławii >>> youtube.com/watch?v=9V2EB9GuCvI
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #912
Crowie...can't you take it to a more fitting thread please?
Crow 146 | 7,594    
4 Oct 2018  #913
Its all connected. You can`t deny that.

We even have clear evidences that `universalistic` option in Poland facing strong resistance from Catholic Polish intelligentsia. That seams to be behind Polish-Pope misunderstandings. Let us hope that Pope isn`t stubborn or, God forbid, evil.
Crow 146 | 7,594    
4 Oct 2018  #914
Mikis Theodorakis described well how perfid Bill Clinton ruined international world order, by supporting western European imperialism

that is all OFF TOPIC...there are lotsa other threads for your whining about Yugoslavia...but this is a "whining about Germany" thread

Whatever. But its clear why is Germany there where it is. Those who are strongest today in the world, see German role in destruction of Yugoslavia as the last Germany`s mistake.
Crnogorac3 1 | 330    
4 Oct 2018  #915
It was Tacitus who once again repeated the tried and tested lies & propaganda and he received a proper answer.

youtu.be/2ua1WB-fovQ

"Danke Deutschland"

It was not the West who forced the Croats and others to declare independence.

Without German "assistance" the Yugoslav crisis would have been resolved like it was recently in Spain, the reason we did not see similar scenes over there was that there was no foreign power and its secret service that would arm the Catalans.
Lyzko 18 | 5,285    
4 Oct 2018  #916
@Bratwurst Boy,

Understanding her motivation(s) and being for her misguided policies are two completely separate issues!
mafketis 16 | 6,288    
4 Oct 2018  #917
Boy this lady's clueless. Well-intentioned perhaps

I don't think there's anything well-intentioned about her.... she's out of touch because she's been in office too long, no national leader is any use after 10 years in office.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #918
Yeah...we should definitely limit the terms! It never ended well, not once!!!
Tacitus 1 | 765    
5 Oct 2018  #919
I disagree. There is no need for a term limit in a parliamentary democracy, in which a leader can be displaced by either the voters or the voters (who can even vote all 4 years and not 5 like some other countries). If the voters, his/her party and a coalition believes that a leader should continue, then there is no reason for an arbitrary term limit.

@Crnogorac3

Without German "assistance" the Yugoslav crisis would have been resolved

Yeah no, all evidence suggest the contrary. The people in Croatia and Slovakia overwhelmingly wanted independence (unlike the Catalans who are split about it) and Belgrad reacted in the worst possible way. There would have been bloodshed either way, as shown by later wars. Germany merely grasped the reality sooner than others. I am quite proud how the Kohl government stood on the right side of history on this decision.

@Crow

Nobody outside Serbia mourns for Yugoslavia. It died with Tito's death, Germany simply accelerated the burial of its' rotting carcass. It was a flawed, unsustainable creation to begin with anyway.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
5 Oct 2018  #920
I disagree. There is no need for a term limit in a parliamentary democracy....

But you know that the longer the term, the more disgraced the leader always became....He/She could have left with an better image if he/she would had gone on her own time earlier.

Does it has to be always this way? That the party/the voters has to drag him/her out of the chancellory at last against his/her will? Do you think that's okay?

Especially in the german variant of the parliamentary democracy...where the voter don't directly elect the leader but the party. People can still sympathize with a party, and want to vote for her instead of her rivals, but still grow tired of it's leader. What are they gonna do?
Tacitus 1 | 765    
5 Oct 2018  #921
He/She could have left with an better image

That is usually just a momentary impression that fades with time. People always crave change and only later start to appreciate what they had earlier. This happened in the days of kings and now in the days of politicians.

Do you think that's okay?

If it is his decision, why not? Every chancellor (though we only have with Adenauer and Kohl had teo cases so far) made the decision to continue because they had something they believed they still needed to do. Adenauer wanted to finish his project of integrating the FRG into the West, Kohl wanted to introduce the Euro, and both succeeded. In Adenauers' case he also prevented Erhardt, whom he -rightfully- believed to be not up to the task from succeeding him for too long.

What are they gonna do?

A mostly academical question. A party leader gets directly voted by his party. If you do not like the leader, you also disapprove with the party's decision and thus should not vote for him and his party.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
5 Oct 2018  #922
And then what? Stay at home? Weakening the democracy through non-voting?

Or wouldn't that rather be the reason for the growing number of "Protest Wähler"? Voting for an enemy to show the party leader the finger, hoping to kick off a change in said party, so that the leader get's kicked out by the party because of the decreasing percents in the polls?

Is that really the best way?

I think the phenomenon of millions of non-voter and the rising numbers of protest voters are a consequence of an unlimited term...and the impossibility for the voters to change that in a election.

(Okay...that this unlimited term goes hand in hand with a repeated grand coalition plays also a big part in that. But that is also a consequence)
mafketis 16 | 6,288    
5 Oct 2018  #923
There is no need for a term limit in a parliamentary democracy,

Parliamentary democracies should set a good example for the rest of the world.... Clearly stablished term limits (between 8 and 12 years as head of state) could help those in countries where they use your arguments to keep human excrement like Putin and Erdogan in power....

Being a head of state for over 10 years should be a mark of shame
Tacitus 1 | 765    
5 Oct 2018  #924
@Bratwurst Boy

Weakening the democracy through non-voting?

Vote for a different party, or vote for the same party. There are enough options available.

@mafketis

like Putin and Erdogan in power

Nope, because there were safeguards like this in both countries, and both leaders found ways to circumvent them. Putin simply made his puppet president for one term. Erdogan's party AKP had a rule preventing any politician from holding an office for more than 3 terms. Erdogan simply became president and changed the political system to his liking.

It makes sense to establish safeguards like this in immature democracies, or presidential democracies, but not in a highly federalized parliamentary democracy in which there are so many checks on the PMs/chancellors power.

Being a head of state for over 10 years

Well, Germany does have a term limit for its' head of state, the German president. The chancellor is the head of government.

Besides, at least in Germany, Adenauer, Kohl and Merkel received their 3rd terms for their remarkeable political achievements. Adenauer for rebuilding Germany, Kohl for reuniting Germany and Merkel for keeping the EU and Euro together.
mafketis 16 | 6,288    
5 Oct 2018  #925
Brexit and the dysfunctional Euro (which makes real economic recovery impossible for southern Europe) not exactly great achievements.... she's the most divisive leader in Europe, hardly a uniting figure.
Tacitus 1 | 765    
5 Oct 2018  #926
Merkel is neither responsible for Brexit (yeah no dear Brits, you brought this on your own) nor for the underlining problems of the Euro. She did however keep the Euro together when many "experts" predicted its' imminent demise between 2010-2012. For that, she won the election in 2013.

Whether the Greeks loved her is irrelevant ( though according to polls, they did and still do trust her more than their own politicians).
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
5 Oct 2018  #927
That's true too...one can blame Merkel for alot of things but she is no wonder woman! :)
mafketis 16 | 6,288    
5 Oct 2018  #928
Merkel is neither responsible for Brexit

She made no compelling argument to stay in the EU (that is her performance and her policies did not)

And the whole idea of the EU is supposed to be good relations rather than forcing countries to live in eternal penury while being preached at. Who needs that crap?

Merkel literally cannot leave office soon enough.
mafketis 16 | 6,288    
5 Oct 2018  #930
Why would you want them back, the UK has never been an enthusiastic member.... give them a status similar to Switzerland and Norway and move on....


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