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"It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland)


Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #871
Yes, I agree.
Tacitus 1 | 765    
4 Oct 2018  #872
Habsburg Empire was more peaceful

It certainly was, relatively speaking compared to what came afterwards.

burning Banlieus in France

Young people without a future tend to act in extreme ways. Each society has its' own challenges. France no doubt has the integration of its' minorities. Germany as it turns out has a problem with integrating the East Germans - or at least a significant minority of them. I know that many East Germans do no like to hear it, but it had become clear that there is something seriously wrong with their mentality - of a minority again, but then again it is also only a minority of migrants who cause problems.

I must say I felt particulary bad after reading this article.

zeit.de/amp/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2018-09/rechtsextremismus-rassismus-brandstiftung-statistik-landeskriminalamt-sachsen-kritik
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #873
Germany as it turns out has a problem with integrating the East Germans

Exactly! When Germany already has problems to integrate East Germans, how can you believe the integration of millions of non-Europeans will keep peace and stability in Germany?

Germans are already split and disintegrating...and all that as Germany till now is still one of the best countries to live in and provides much comfort and security for most.

The coming economical changes (digitalization) will be enormous and are difficult enough already for a quite unified homogenous people...but a split, infighting country made up of many disagreeing groups?

That can destroy us!

I know that many East Germans do no like to hear it, but it had become clear that there is something seriously wrong with their mentality

May be...there are alot different mentalities in Germany for example between Bavarians and Frisians! I wouldn't call it "wrong" though! :)

But the main difference had made the years between 1961 to 1989. It's useless to ignore that. That's the backlash now for this ignorance. There is a reason other eastern european countries are much closer to us than our west-german brethren.

And that story does not end now...

I can imagine that East Germany becomes a region...like Bavaria...with enormous federal independence and maybe even a party and politicians which care more about Eastern Germans than the rest...like the CSU.

That would be a logical consequence and maybe loosen some of the tensions. But that most leader in East Germany are Wessis is no longer feasable...it doesn't work anymore...

Just some ideas...
Tacitus 1 | 765    
4 Oct 2018  #874
how can you believe the integration of millions of non-Europeans

Aside from the fact that those Non-Europeans have so far caused less trouble, the problem with integrating East Germans is that it was barely attempted with them on a mental level. Refugees are now expected to take a course in which they are taught about democracy and German society. The same should have happened with East Germans, but since no politician wanted to antagonize them, it was never done properly.

Germans are already split and disintegrating

That can hardly be said about Germany as a whole. East Germany perhaps, but not West Germany. Remember, the AfD barely got above 10% during the last federal election there.

digitalization

How much that will change Germany remains to be seen. I remember reading an article in the FAZ about a recent study that disputes the number of jobs lost through this digitalization. A few years ago people though that self-driving trucks would soon take over the streets. Now even the greatest optimists believe that this might only become an option in a few decades. Until then there are however challenges that could far more dangerous to the stability in Germany. Soon there will be a new forecast for the development of Germany and many expect that the prediction for East Germany will be very pessimistic. Which comes as no surprise, given the circumstances.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #875
The same should have happened with East Germans, but since no politician wanted to antagonize them, it was never done properly.

Na ja....this East German "mentality" you speak off seems to live on happily even as the unification is now nearly 30 years old and a whole new generation has been born and grown up in Germany including learning all about democracy and stuff in school.

Similiarities to the second and third generation of turkish immigrants which also seem to be less integrated than their parents and grand parents? Totally voluntarily! They too wandered through the same school system...that "teaching" seems to have it's limits concerning ethnical and cultural identity.

Maybe there is a natural limit of "integration" generally? Which makes the theory of a peaceful, stable multi-ethnic society again less probable....

That can hardly be said about Germany as a whole. East Germany perhaps, but not West Germany.

Germany as a whole IS East Germany plus West Germany....:)

many expect that the prediction for East Germany will be very pessimistic. Which comes as no surprise, given the circumstances.

Agreed...and what happens now in East Germany is an inkling what could happen to (till now) still stable and peaceful West Germany once a real economical crisis hits. But now with additionally millions of immigrants!

I wonder if any of our political leaders has any plan for that besides empty phrases.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #876
It certainly was, relatively speaking compared to what came afterwards.

so speak one who don`t know.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,104    
4 Oct 2018  #877
Germans are already split and disintegrating..

Reviewing James Hawes' provocative book "The Shortest History of Germany" in the Guardian, Nick Cohen says:

James Hawes's sweeping and confident history shows how deep the division of Germany between west and east became as Teutonic knights, Junkers, Prussian militarists and Nazi imperialists all determined to establish an empire over the Slavs in the lands beyond the Elbe; and

Now Germany is reunited and its new capital is the old Prussian capital of Berlin, far beyond the Elbe, rather than Bonn in the west. Once again, west Germans are pumping colossal sums of money to the east, not to fund Prussian militarism and agricultural subsidies for Junkers this time, but to pay for remarkably ineffective welfare programmes. Once again, the east is where extremism flourishes [...]

Isn't it it time for a de-unification of Germany now?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #878
I would call it "regionalization"...more or less a deepening of an already federal character. And yes, I think that would be a viable future option. Germans always had a very strong regional identy, stemming from the "good 'ol times" of 500 (more or less) little and not so little kingdoms. It was not the worst time in german history.

I think that this could be an answer to a a growing splitting of an once homogenous people. "One government for all" becomes less feasable, it doesn't fit anymore the many groups and identities.

Big cities for example have different needs than the people on the flat lands...very big mega cities could even become their own region with a B├╝rgermeister as powerful as a former chancellor but with limited influence (only his town)...it would be an option and a way out.

These new times need new ideas....new strategies and new political ways.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #879
Isn't it it time for a de-unification of Germany now?

I gladly support this, if its possible. Pray for this, to Christ and to Svetovid. Germany is one abnormal and immoral state.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #880
You could actually say that about every artificial nation state...but they have proven to be enormous successful for their time.

The growing globalisation shows the end though...starting with ending the folk the nation has been build on once....
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #881
Yes Germany was needed in prolonged era of slavery of Slavs. Eastern-most western European power. Now when Slavs strengthen historical mission of German is over.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #883
Huntington was pretty good in his book `Clash of civilizations`. Wasn`t correct in entirety but principle was correct. That should give you idea

See, its quite possible that border between newly emerging... let`s name it `Western European civilization` (led by France and Spain) and Slavic conglomerates (be it Intermarium, New Commonwealth or who knows what) goes straight thru Germany.

Before you ask.... Britain will join in... let`s give it working title.... `North American civilization`.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #884
"North American Civilization"? In Central Europe?

But frankly I'm not so sure about building two powerful blocs inside Europe again...that leads only to war.

Europe needs to bundle it's powers. Not split in two again, that is weakening us only...
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #885
Won`t be federation of Europeans. We have clear clash between `globalistic and universalistic` ideologies and ideologies that tend to preserve existence of `peoples, unique cultures`.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #886
PS: If you are mainly concerned with your hate against the nationstate Germany though, a future federal regionalization could be an answer for you too! :)

Imagine a regionalized Europe....where every regional identity will be valued and doesn't have to fight against another, fearing to be overwhelmed by strangers...

We have clear clash between `globalistic and universalistic` ideologies and ideologies that tend to preserve existence of `peoples, unique cultures`.

Agreed...and regionalization is the answer, IMHO...not the building of huge blocs containing many identities again. We have experienced that, it doesn't work.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #887
"North American Civilization"? In Central Europe?

Britain isn`t Central Europe. But, you must understand principle. Its globalization.

But if Britain fails to join in "North American Civilization" what can it expect? I can imagine that outcome. There are signs of this possibility. Then it will be feed with non-whites so that one day it can more easily join in new Western European civilization led by France and Spain that would anyway annex significant portions of Northern Africa.

Imagine a regionalized Europe....

If future EU wants to have Serbians, it would on the long run lead to Belgrade as Capital of EU. Actually, without Belgrade as EU Capital, there won`t be united Europe. One who don`t understand this, don`t understand politics of Belgrade, behind Belgrade and about Belgrade.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #888
In my future Europe there won't be this one capital wich rules all but many...many more than now! :)

IMHO, that is for me the only way a unified EU-Europe can work. As a federation of highly independent regions.

As it goes now it goes down...and that is not good for Europeans.
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #889
But people will need symbol and it would be allowed only to Belgrade to be symbol of unified Europe. Only possible compromise.

You must understand, among many other reasons, assimilational power of Vatican, France and Germany is enormous. It is a real threat to Slavs. To all Slavs, be them Catholics or anything else. It is threat to very principle of concept of `unique culture, people`.

Then, most importantly, its not that crucial things in the world depend on Vatican, France and Germany. Others deciding even about them. Sure Vatican is in special situation and for sure, would get best possible offer from those who deciding. So again, Belgrade. Most powerfully today stay behind Belgrade and trust only to Belgrade.

That if unified Europe even get a chance.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #890
It is a real threat to Slavs. To all Slavs, be them Catholics or anything else. It is threat to very principle of concept of `unique culture, people`.

You always make one big error...you talk of the "Slavs" as one big homogenous mass with only one identity. With maybe only one common goal, their hate against all things Germanic/West.

But the slavic people are diverse, with different histories and cultures. (Even if you abit desperatedly try to give them the one same founding mythos in the Sarmatians).

The slavic bloc you want to build, with Belgrade as capital, would be doomed from the start when the many different slavic identities would chafe against each other. You would need again a brutal, bloody "iron fist" to keep them together.

Your dream of an slavic empire would become again a nightmare for many Slavs...

As I see it you want to repeat history.... But you must search for new answers, for new ideas...not re-make the old errors!
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #891
You mistaken here. I really don`t take Slavs as homogeneous.

But you go ask Catholic Poles are they Catholics by nation or Polish. Some are first Catholic and then Slavic. Some are first Slavic and then Catholic. But, hardly would anybody say he is just Catholic.

Then go ask same question to one Bosnian Muslim. Are they Islam first and then Slavs or the opposite. Then you would understand how are ideologies of Vatican and Islamic league similar, universalistic with clear pyramid of power, where ultimately must exist no other loyalty but loyalty to top of the pyramid

You are the one that have clouded judgement. Dissolution of Yugoslavia was possible only because world powers allowed that to happen. All the rest they told you is daily politics for our grandmothers. Dissolution of everything (!) is possible when world powers agree to it. Don`t forget it. To think otherwise is pure delusion.

So, like Huntington, I talk of global conglomerates that would be result of agreement between crucial players of Multi-Polar world. In that agreements, if unified Europe exist, Belgrade will be Capital. I explained principle. That would be compromise.

Or there won`t be unified Europe but other conglomerates, as players in Multi-Polar world.
Tacitus 1 | 765    
4 Oct 2018  #892
Crow, the dissolution of Yugoslavia happened because nobody -except the Serbs - believed in the idea anymore. It was not the West who forced the Croats and others to declare independence.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #893
You are the one that have clouded judgement.

I'm not the one dreaming of the rebirth of a slavic bloc....because of it's diversity it can't be either peaceful nor stable in the long run...to keep it you would need much pressure. That just isn't a nice future to look forward too.

Hopefully the only future conglomerate in Europe will be a truly european one...neither germanic nor slavic nor another one build on one identity strictly limited against another one. Europe is much to diverse for that.

How the Europeans will manage that, now with addding many more identities from far away, I dunno...but it's our only chance!

And I really prefer a federation to a conglomerate though....:)
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #894
@Tacitus

Wrong, but you are free to believe what you want man. A lot of was invested in you mind-set so who am I to try to correct it.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #895
Wrong, but you are free to believe what you want man.

Not wrong...but logical!

You want to put millions of people with diverse cultural backgrounds all in one bloc.....that can't work, Crowie! Been there, done that!

Not "mind set"....real existing historic experiences!!!

You are not even starting with values but want to give all these millions just a common past, that they may or not may have all startet out as Sarmatians, the justification for your Empire/bloc. And you believe that would be enough for such a diverse people...
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #896
Hopefully the only future conglomerate in Europe will be a truly european one...neither germanic nor slavic

So must be universalistric? See?

slavic bloc.... because of it's diversity it can't be either peaceful nor stable in the long run...to keep it you would need much pressure.

If come to Slavic conglomerate in Europe, it will work if Vatican and other powers are seduced to allow for that to be possible. Or they won`t allow and then what? What would be allowed to them? Or they would prefer global war? Or other side will suggest other principle for formation of Slavic conglomerate? What with Poland then? What then with Poland if Vatican and western Europe are stubborn?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #897
If come to Slavic conglomerate in Europe, it will work if Vatican and other powers are seduced to allow for that to be possible.

And once the to be expected inner problems start to rise in your Empire/bloc/conglomerate, will you keep blaming the Vatican and others for it? Will you start using "foreign enemies" as easy scapegoat for your selfmade problems? Again? Will you go to war to defend yourself (or so you say) against them? Starting blood shed and destruction? Again?

Do you really want to go through all that? Again?

I don't!
Crow 146 | 7,595    
4 Oct 2018  #898
Ridiculous. And whom would USA to blame when occur social turmoils?

I don't!

Have no fear. We are what we are. Serving to our civilization, we serving best to humanity. We are all needed to those who rule humanity. So we would all have good and bad days. That is the life.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Oct 2018  #899
Ridiculous. And whom would USA to blame when occur social turmoils?

You see already how they are split...black against white...the liberal Mega Cities on the East and West Coast against the conservative inner "heart land"...

California is talking of secession, no joke...they don't need an outer enemy, they see enough enemies inside as it is...

Germany's and Europe's future?

That is the life.

True! :)
Lyzko 18 | 5,309    
4 Oct 2018  #900
Can one honestly speak of the "Balkanization" of Poland?
I find that difficult to believe, although of Europe on the whole, surely the degree of ethnic mix may indeed be parallel
with the situation on the Continent prior to the First World War.

It certainly should come as no surprise to anyone here, hobby historian or what not, that it was surely no coincidence
that the most perfervid of race purifiers, namely Hitler, came from a mixed border area of the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
with Jews, Ruthenians, Poles, Slovenes, Hungarians, Huzuls, Slovaks, Croatians practically tripping over one another,
among whom SOMEWHERE out among all that Mulligan's Brew of a "diversity", there may have been some "stray" Germanic
Austrians to fill inLOL

When any majority feels or imagines themselves outnumbered, indeed marginalized, by a minority, there's always bound to be
extreme friction, I don't care how tolerant people think they are.


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