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Jaruzelski dead / his legacy in Poland


jon357 64 | 14,382    
14 May 2014  #1
There's some debate on the internet about whether or not the rumour's true. If he isn't dead, he's certainly at death's door.

He'll be missed by some and definitely not missed by others. Whatever you think, it's a chapter in Polish history closed.
Harry    
14 May 2014  #2
RIP General, a true Pole and patriot.

Cancel that, apparently reports of his death have been somewhat exaggerated:

Wojciech Jaruzelski in hospital WIM in Warsaw. His condition is stable - confirmed Radio TOK FM. This morning , some media reported false information about the death of the general.

Wojciech Jaruzelski on Sunday, May 11 passed a stroke and was taken to the hospital, Department of Neurology , Military Medical Institute . This information confirmed the deputy commander Col. Gregory Kade WIM .
Wulkan - | 3,255    
15 May 2014  #3
He'll be missed by some and definitely not missed by others

wont be missed by me, responsible for the death of many innocent people
goofy_the_dog    
15 May 2014  #4
Damn Wojtek, i already opened a bottle!
If id want capital punishment for one person in this world .. It would have been him!
smurf 39 | 1,983    
16 May 2014  #5
Can we get a small history lesson on the chap? I've never heard of him.
And why is opinion divided?
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034    
16 May 2014  #6
Someone who isn't Polish and tends to read and watch post communist leftist media, is going to consider Jaruzelski an amazing patriot. Someone who has a brain will know he was the opposite of that.
smurf 39 | 1,983    
16 May 2014  #7
Still waiting on the history lesson......

I google image'd him and there's a great one of him and Fidel Castro.
That was probably a good party. Vodka and cigars!

But seriously, who the hell was/is he?
His Wikipedia page is far too long for a Friday evening, anyone got a TL:DR version?
Harry    
16 May 2014  #8
I google image'd him and there's a great one of him and Fidel Castro.

One of the rare shots of him outside without his dark glasses (life in the gulag permanently damaged his eyes, which is why he was so rarely seen without dark glasses).

That was probably a good party. Vodka and cigars!

Radek Sikorski reckons that the General "had the reputation of being a teetotaler".
f stop 25 | 2,514    
16 May 2014  #9
Someone who isn't Polish and tends to read and watch post communist leftist media, is going to consider Jaruzelski an amazing patriot.

this is a kind of empty, immature, meaningless and insulting argument that I truly despise. It brings nothing but a bad taste to the table.
Dougpol1 27 | 2,573    
17 May 2014  #10
RIP General, a true Pole and patriot.

I wouldn't play poker with you Harry, as I have no idea if you're bluffing or not - apart from your and Delphs' ignorant posts on this subject from time to time..

Let's just say that if the aforementioned gentleman had been British and had done what he did, to the Poles, turning the tanks and armoured cars on the populace - then on the "return to normality" aka post Round table - he would have been kicked to death in the street.

The Midlands boyz would have doled that out, If he had visited my neck of the woods at any rate.

To misqoute Wilde, the old geezer is an unspeakable apology for a human being who should have been executed.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
17 May 2014  #11
I wouldn't play poker with you Harry, as I have no idea if you're bluffing or not - apart from your and Delphs' ignorant posts on this subject from time to time..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojciech_Jaruzelski#Early_life_and_military_career

web.archive.org/web/20080613043840/
cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/kbank/profiles/jaruzelski/

Gen. Wojciech Jaruzelski - Polish Prime Minister and Communist Party Leader

On 1 September 1939, the September Campaign started when Poland was invaded by Germany, with the latter country aided by another invasion begun sixteen days later by the Soviet Union. The invasions resulted in the defeat of Poland by the following month, and its partition between Soviet and German control. Jaruzelski and his family fled to Lithuania and stayed with some friends there. However, a few months later, after Lithuania and the other Baltic states were forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Union, Jaruzelski and his family were captured by the army of the Soviet Union, and deported to Siberia. In 1940 at the age of sixteen, Jaruzelski was sent to the Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic, where he performed forced labour in the Karaganda coal mines. During his labour work, having experienced snow blindness, he suffered permanent damage to his eyes and back.The damage to his eyes forced him to wear dark sunglasses most of the time, which became his trademark.
Dougpol1 27 | 2,573    
17 May 2014  #12
Adam, I don't get the point of your cut and paste.

If you look into the archives, you can find film of Adolf recieving a British delegation in a snappy suit and being a charming chancellor statesman; 1936 I believe. All very prim and proper and correct to the British diplomatic rose -tinted vision.

Now - just because Jaruzelski did his duty early in his career doesn't negate from his crimes against the populace later on.
Maybe for you of course, but try asking Poles who were there and had to live with it.
Lolek2    
18 May 2014  #13
He should buried in Moscow.
Harry    
19 May 2014  #14
Let's just say that if the aforementioned gentleman had been British and had done what he did, to the Poles, turning the tanks and armoured cars on the populace - then on the "return to normality" aka post Round table - he would have been kicked to death in the street.

The fact that Stanley Baldwin died at home in his sleep decades after sending armoured cars and tanks onto British streets and that David Lloyd George died of cancer decades after sending tanks onto British streets shows that your claim is completely wrong.

At least General Jaruzelski was trying to prevent a foreign invasion when he put armoured cars and tanks onto Poland's streets; both Baldwin and Lloyd George were purely cracking down on internal dissent.

your and Delphs' ignorant posts on this subject from time to time.

One might ask exactly who is ignorant.
Dougpol1 27 | 2,573    
19 May 2014  #15
The fact that Stanley Baldwin died at home in his sleep decades after sending armoured cars and tanks onto British streets and that David Lloyd George died of cancer decades after sending tanks onto British streets shows that your claim is completely wrong.

The difference being of course, that those two were acting at the behest of the Establishment, with an electoral mandate. There is no ethical comparison between the (archaic) action of a British government in a pre-war world where populations had no social rights, and a totalitarian state where 3 million out of a population of 35 odd million attempted and succeeded for 40 years to cowe the masses, and murdered 40 plus civilians in the food riots of 1970, where of course your hero is also cited as being involved.

Your support of Jarelzelski does baffle me a little Harry but of course opinions are there to be argued over.

I would like to argue however, or opinion, that the crime of turning the guns on your own people is worse when,as we now know, that action is defended over the years and never apologised for.

Instead Jarelzelski unerringly acts the fantasist and is exposed as a liar when he says the Soviets were about to invade. We know it was he who solicited Soviet interference -the words of dissidents and historians back this up unequivocally - though no doubt you will dig up some obscure quote that Mother Russia was about to obliterate Poland from the map.

All I know is that there are plenty of people out there who I have spoken to, university professors, playboys, allotment retirees, train drivers, you name it, who would have preferred the Russians to come - so that they could have seen the supposed real enemy.

But instead the Poles were faced by their own "people". And it is to Poland's shame that they didn't clear out the old guard, as in East Germany and the old Czechoslowakia.

Jurelzelski - traitor, always will be, for millions. There is no deeper insult and if he is a believer he will know that he faces the ultimate sanction.
Harry    
19 May 2014  #16
a pre-war world

Er, both those events were after WWI, not before it.

your hero

I can't actually remember saying that he was my hero; would you like to quote me or are you finding it easier to argue against what I do say than what I do not say?

We know it was he who solicited Soviet interference -the words of dissidents and historians back this up unequivocally

Perhaps you could be so kind as to tell us which Polish dissidents knew what the Soviet regime was planning? Thanks in advance. Sadly historians don't have much to go on these days, a lot of files were thoroughly edited after the fall of communism (for example the IPN would have us believe that nobody in the secret police ever heard any whisper that Kaczynski might be gay).

some obscure quote that Mother Russia was about to obliterate Poland from the map.

Operation Krkonose is already well known about to those who are actually interested in the truth and don't simply ignore the parts of history which challenge their preconceived opinions.
Dougpol1 27 | 2,573    
19 May 2014  #17
Sorry Harry - I am older than you - but for me, pre-war is pre Second World War.

Now stop being a plonker please. I've given you the benefit so far.

PS None of your post stands up to why the chap declared Martial Law and how he can defend it - never mind the fact that at his last TV appearance he looked as if he could join that centurion Polish bloke in the 100 metres.

Just a cheap scum fraud, like a lying tart. Also a murderer, but don't let that faze you.

PS Harry you really are being obtuse tonight. By dissidents I was referring to Russian dissidents, and the Mitrochin Archive et al.

Ta.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
20 May 2014  #18
Adam, I don't get the point of your cut and paste.

Whatever's your opinion, the most elementary thing is to base it on truth and established facts.
Szalawa 3 | 249    
20 May 2014  #19
Agree 100%, I actually find Adam's cut and paste's very useful
Harry    
20 May 2014  #20
Whatever's your opinion, the most elementary thing is to base it on truth and established facts.

Sadly the wikipedia article you quote from manages to contain more than a few things which are very simply not true and leave out things which are.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
20 May 2014  #21
things which are very simply not true

Which ones?
Harry    
20 May 2014  #22
For example the bit which has him fighting an army which didn't actually exist then.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
20 May 2014  #23
I don't get it. What army? When? What sentence do you mean?
Harry    
20 May 2014  #24
This bit "He "further credited himself in Soviet eyes"[2] by engaging in combat against the Polish Home Army, an anti-communist organization, from 1945 to 1947."
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
20 May 2014  #25
by engaging in combat against the Polish Home Army, an anti-communist organization, from 1945 to 1947.

Does it contradict the facts of the Polish Home Army?

Here goes an excerpt form the Wikipedia article on Home Army:

The Home Army was officially disbanded on 19 January 1945 to avoid civil war and armed conflict with the Soviets. However, many former Home Army units decided to continue operations. The Soviet Union, and the Polish Communist Government that it controlled, viewed the underground, still loyal to the Polish Government-in-Exile, as a force to be extirpated before they could gain complete control of Poland.
Harry    
20 May 2014  #26
Does it contradict the facts of the Polish Home Army?

Given that the AK was dissolved in early 1945, it would have been impossible for the General to have been fighting against them two years later, wouldn't it?
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
20 May 2014  #27
There are some subtleties of history for which to give full account of would mean that history would look more like a mathematical equation than something real and understandable. Let's say that the sentence you question is a mental shortcut, which for those who know history well, means that Jaruzelski was fighting the former Home Army units continuing their operations after the Home Army was officially dissolved in early 1945.
Harry    
25 May 2014  #28
RIP General.
theguardian.com/world/2014/may/25/wojciech-jaruzelski-poland-communist-leader-dies
OP jon357 64 | 14,382    
25 May 2014  #29
Whatever you think of him, he had an interesting life.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034    
25 May 2014  #30
A lot of bad people had interesting lives. Hitler had a very interesting life.


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